Grasping at straws...

[BronwenSurf]

An example of horse telling you what they like.
A friend of a friend had loads of money and sent her horse to the very smart full livery stable with horse walker indoor and out door schools, the best care, good grazing etc etc, you couldn’t fault it but
the horse was difficult to handle, difficult to ride and generally not himself as he’d been at a previous yard.

The owner moved house and the nearest yard was a country farm with barns converted to stables, few ‘facilities’ but with great hacking and a huge variety of horses and ponies. The horse was a changed character, willing, easy to do and returned to competing and winning.

Unfortunately often we get it wrong trying to get it right.
Horses tell us everything as best they can, it’s up to us to read the signs.
I think your horse is telling you things need to change. I hope you can make him happy.

Unfortunately, moving him at this point is not an option because of my other horses and the fact there are no comparable barns in my area so I am trying to make best at the stable he is at now. Additionally he is perfectly content 6-7 months of the year and only struggles during the change of paddock which is why I'm trying to solve what is making him unhappy in this paddock.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Not gone through the other replies but 1/2 an acre for 3 horses and he's in a smaller than 1/2 acre now. On top of that this is a horse with kissing spine and neck arthritis.

This poor horse. I imagine he's in significant pain, has ulcers and the change in how stoic he is is probably the lack of forage in such a small paddock This is a very sad story.

 

[pastit]

Just a slightly off the wall suggestion. If his paddock is close to the barn, are there any electrical cables that run under the ground? Horses are ultra sensitive to any electrical current from a faulty cable.

 

[BronwenSurf]

Not gone through the other replies but 1/2 an acre for 3 horses and he's in a smaller than 1/2 acre now. On top of that this is a horse with kissing spine and neck arthritis.

This poor horse. I imagine he's in significant pain, has ulcers and the change in how stoic he is is probably the lack of forage in such a small paddock This is a very sad story.

for real? you're acting like this is a rescue case... it is the complete norm in my area to have this much space for turn out. In fact it was the most amount of space offered for turn out at the 10+ barns I visited. No lie, no exaggeration. I agree it's not great but an acre per horse just does not exist at any barn in a 150km radius that also has heated water in the winter and many other necessities. My search area for a barn wasn't a busting metropolis, it was as close to the country side as you can get before ending up in hicksville. In the other barns I visited if there was larger turn out paddocks, it was with 7-10 horses in maybe 3/4 of an acre but nothing larger than that.
He is perfectly happy and content the majority of the year, he's not a 'poor horse', I'm trying to figure out how to help him the few months of the year he's in a small paddock. Your comment is completely unhelpful. He is on pain medication based on my vets recommendations, he received injections for the kissing spine, he is undergoing rehab to help with the kissing spine with stretches and core exercises and working long and low, he has been treated yearly for ulcers and is on a supplement to prevent them. This is not a very sad story, please get over yourself

 

[BronwenSurf]

Just a slightly off the wall suggestion. If his paddock is close to the barn, are there any electrical cables that run under the ground? Horses are ultra sensitive to any electrical current from a faulty cable.

appreciate the off the wall suggestions! it is close to a coverall so maybe something in there bothers him or the electric fence in that particular paddock isnt right..

 

[ycbm]

In the other barns I visited if there was larger turn out paddocks, it was with 7-10 horses in maybe 3/4 of an acre but nothing larger than that.

Bronwen can I ask how big you think an acre is, because I can't imagine how any stable can keep 10 horses in an area 70m x 55m, which is just over ¾ of an acre and I'm hoping for your horse's sake that you are imagining that an acre is a lot more than it is.

.

 

[ycbm]

appreciate the off the wall suggestions! it is close to a coverall so maybe something in there bothers him or the electric fence in that particular paddock isnt right..

Is the summer paddock electrified? If not, then his worsened behaviour in winter could be that he is prevented from using crib biting to relieve stress when he's in the small paddock. Does he crib in his stable or does he not want to or is he prevented some way?

 

[BronwenSurf]

Bronwen can I ask how big you think an acre is, because I can't imagine how any stable can keep 10 horses in an area 70m x 55m, which is just over ¾ of an acre and I'm hoping for your horse's sake that you are imagining that an acre is a lot more than it is.

.

according to google its ~4050 meters squared. Maybe my eye isnt the greatest so perhaps its a full acre for 7-10 horses but I'm not under estimating by 10 acres or something like that. I agree that is not an ideal scenario.

Is the summer paddock electrified? If not, then his worsened behaviour in winter could be that he is prevented from using crib biting to relieve stress when he's in the small paddock. Does he crib in his stable or does he not want to or is he prevented some way?

both paddocks are electrified. he is not a cribber.

 

[moosea]

I think that it is obvious that;

*The winter turn out is too small for the number of horses
*Your horse is stressed at being left behind
*Your horse is not getting enough forage

Can you not agree with the owner of one of the other horses to trial turning your horse and one other out overnight? That way your hose can be in all day, with access to hay, and out overnight with a companion?

 

[ycbm]

. he is not a cribber

The stables have told you he can't go in a bigger paddock because he bites the fence if it's not electrified. In my experience that's either a cribber or a horse absolutely desperate for more fibre. How much hay does he get overnight?

 

[ycbm]

according to google its ~4050 meters squared

Not quite, it's 4050 square metres, which is being pedantic but the two are both possible but wildly different. A good way to think of it is that a standard 20x40 is about 1/5 of an acre.

So in summer your yard keeps 3 in a paddock on a hillside the size of 2½ dressage arenas in winter 3 on a lot less but flat?
.

 

[BronwenSurf]

I think that it is obvious that;

*The winter turn out is too small for the number of horses
*Your horse is stressed at being left behind
*Your horse is not getting enough forage

Can you not agree with the owner of one of the other horses to trial turning your horse and one other out overnight? That way your hose can be in all day, with access to hay, and out overnight with a companion?

not possible unfortunately

 

[Ratface]

These were my first thoughts too. Possibly being left until the end or near the end to be bought in is upsetting him and possibly being in the smaller pen with the others could be upsetting him.

My drama queen Arabian gelding (late 20's) is in a smallish individual paddock, next to his herd mates in their ones. He has to be brought in second, after his girlfriend, who is next door to him in the courtyard stables and the paddocks, otherwise he goes roaring round his paddock, screaming his head off and winding the rest of the herd up until they are all doing the same! I think it would be reasonable to ask your barn staff if they could bring him in first. Much less aggravation all round! Good luck.

 

[BronwenSurf]

Not quite, it's 4050 square metres, which is being pedantic but the two are both possible but wildly different. A good way to think of it is that a standard 20x40 is about 1/5 of an acre.

So in summer your yard keeps 3 in a paddock on a hillside the size of 2½ dressage arenas in winter 3 on a lot less but flat?
.

yep you got it exactly right. that is similar to what I saw at every other stable I have visited in this area and others in the province.
perhaps individuals running their own stable with 1-2 horses can accommodate an acre per horse but it is unseen in my area. I wish that weren't the case but it simply is the objective truth.

 

[BronwenSurf]

My drama queen Arabian gelding (late 20's) is in a smallish individual paddock, next to his herd mates in their ones. He has to be brought in second, after his girlfriend, who is next door to him in the courtyard stables and the paddocks, otherwise he goes roaring round his paddock, screaming his head off and winding the rest of the herd up until they are all doing the same! I think it would be reasonable to ask your barn staff if they could bring him in first. Much less aggravation all round! Good luck.

funny- my drama queen arab mare has always come in last and never had a problem- go figure i will be asking what the staff recommends tonight based on my observations..

 

[moosea]

not possible unfortunately

Then you need to make it possible or he will end up with ulcers.
It's a welfare issue to make your horse suffer for 5 months of the year imho

 

[Bellaboo18]

for real? you're acting like this is a rescue case... it is the complete norm in my area to have this much space for turn out. In fact it was the most amount of space offered for turn out at the 10+ barns I visited. No lie, no exaggeration. I agree it's not great but an acre per horse just does not exist at any barn in a 150km radius that also has heated water in the winter and many other necessities. My search area for a barn wasn't a busting metropolis, it was as close to the country side as you can get before ending up in hicksville. In the other barns I visited if there was larger turn out paddocks, it was with 7-10 horses in maybe 3/4 of an acre but nothing larger than that.
He is perfectly happy and content the majority of the year, he's not a 'poor horse', I'm trying to figure out how to help him the few months of the year he's in a small paddock. Your comment is completely unhelpful. He is on pain medication based on my vets recommendations, he received injections for the kissing spine, he is undergoing rehab to help with the kissing spine with stretches and core exercises and working long and low, he has been treated yearly for ulcers and is on a supplement to prevent them. This is not a very sad story, please get over yourself

He really shouldn't need to be 'treated for ulcers yearly'. This is a welfare case.

 

[PurBee]

I wonder if the summer hilly paddock enables him to exercise his KS back more, and that combined with injections, he’s fine to ride. Warmer weather too helps all aches and pains.
But the winter flat small roundpen type turnout doesnt enable that ‘back-stretching’ exercise, which potentially, despite injections, feels worse for him, hence his worse behaviour generally and under saddle? Especially if he’s likely just standing around still in the winter turnout, because he’s sharing a much smaller space with 2 others.

That, perhaps combined with other stressors as suggested by other replies about lack of forage, or him being low herd so not getting as much.

My mare would be a devious witch to the younger gelding to scoff all food no matter where i put it. Even separate piles she’d glare at him and use body behaviour to tell him where to go. I got to observe her tactics close-up longterm as theyre at home with me. Her behaviour shocked me, she’d also do it worse when she thought i wasnt looking, so dont under-estimate the ‘sweet’ lead mare and her ability to control the others with just a glare and body stance!
I separated them in the end to end the cycle of behaviour, then joined together after many many months, when she resource-guarded less aggressively. He was much more high-wire unpredictable behaviour when he wasn’t able to eat at his own pace and be bullied off food, and became much calmer in himself when that ’threat’ was eliminated.

 

[BronwenSurf]

He really shouldn't need to be 'treated for ulcers yearly'. This is a welfare case.

he does not NEED to be treated yearly it is precautionary since we think he may be prone. it is a common veterinary practice to do this.
really like to throw around the world 'welfare' willy nilly.. save your comments for actual animals suffering. not a healthy middle aged horse that gets the best care available to him. you should have seen him when i bought him, crumbling feet, very underweight and under muscled. welfare case then maybe but not now.

 

[BronwenSurf]

I wonder if the summer hilly paddock enables him to exercise his KS back more, and that combined with injections, he’s fine to ride. Warmer weather too helps all aches and pains.
But the winter flat small roundpen type turnout doesnt enable that ‘back-stretching’ exercise, which potentially, despite injections, feels worse for him, hence his worse behaviour generally and under saddle? Especially if he’s likely just standing around still in the winter turnout, because he’s sharing a much smaller space with 2 others.

That, perhaps combined with other stressors as suggested by other replies about lack of forage, or him being low herd so not getting as much.

My mare would be a devious witch to the younger gelding to scoff all food no matter where i put it. Even separate piles she’d glare at him and use body behaviour to tell him where to go. I got to observe her tactics close-up longterm as theyre at home with me. Her behaviour shocked me, she’d also do it worse when she thought i wasnt looking, so dont under-estimate the ‘sweet’ lead mare and her ability to control the others with just a glare and body stance!
I separated them in the end to end the cycle of behaviour, then joined together after many many months, when she resource-guarded less aggressively. He was much more high-wire unpredictable behaviour when he wasn’t able to eat at his own pace and be bullied off food, and became much calmer in himself when that ’threat’ was eliminated.

thank you for your constructive, helpful comment.

 

[Michen]

I’m not surprised by the sizing you mentioned here. I’m in Colorado and horses are mostly (albeit not everywhere, but very hard to find good care and large turnout combined) kept in dry lots. These are about the size of a round pen. So probably similar to your situation? Though they don’t share them at least at my barn but I’ve seen others where three would live in that space.

It’s totally different this side of the pond!

No suggestions though OP I’m sorry. But I understand your dilemma as moving barbs and finding something different with that amount of snow etc I’m sure is almost impossible.

I think I’d be trying him on his own as a first port of call.

 

[BronwenSurf]

I’m not surprised by the sizing you mentioned here. I’m in Colorado and horses are mostly (albeit not everywhere, but very hard to find good care and large turnout combined) kept in dry lots. These are about the size of a round pen. So probably similar to your situation? Though they don’t share them at least at my barn but I’ve seen others where three would live in that space.

It’s totally different this side of the pond!

No suggestions though OP I’m sorry. But I understand your dilemma as moving barbs and finding something different with that amount of snow etc I’m sure is almost impossible.

I think I’d be trying him on his own as a first port of call.

I dont see horses sharing turnout the size of round pens either they'd be by themselves like you mention. thank you for making me not feel like I'm abusing my horse because of the way barns are structured in my area... I needed that.

 

[Michen]

I dont see horses sharing turnout the size of round pens either they'd be by themselves like you mention. thank you for making me not feel like I'm abusing my horse because of the way barns are structured in my area... I needed that.

I really do get the struggle! Especially the heated water with larger turnout. I’m not convinced they move that much more in the snow whatever the size turnout, when hay is mostly in one place.

That said (I am sorry to have to say this) if my horse was reacting like yours and I had tried everything ie earlier bring in, individual turnout etc I WOULD still be moving barns- or even leasing the horse elsewhere. Even if that meant he was out of the state and spent half the year somewhere else.I recently thought my horse was going to have to retire and I was looking at barns in Kentucky, it would have broken my heart to be parted from him but I felt he’d have a better retirement there than Colorado.

I think you’ve got some things to try though before you need to consider something drastic!

 

[Red-1]

If he is so unhappy, I would trial not turning him out in the days when he is ridden, during the winter. I had one who was perfectly happy on 2 turnout days a week, ridden the others. The riding was varied, maybe 3 days a week hacking on a huge country estate, two days a week schooling/jumping. He was always picked on and individual turnout was not available on that yard, but they did manage twice a week individual.

It is not what I thought he would like, but it is what suited that particular horse. I did find somewhere better, where he could have individual large paddock turnout on good grazing, but is was miles away.

I eventually moved here so I could control factors so he could have one companion out with him, a little Shetland, barefoot, well socialised. Even that had to be stopped as the Shetland kicked him so badly. He was a moose with other horses and frustrated them until they kicked him, and he was better next to one rather than with one.

At one stage I lived in a city, worked in a different town and had my horse in a completely different county! Sometimes what suits them isn't what we think will.

 

[ycbm]

thank you for making me not feel like I'm abusing my horse because of the way barns are structured in my area... I needed that.

The only opinion that matters is the horse's. I hope that individual turnout or no turnout will make him happier, but if not I hope you will accept that being miserable for half of every year is unacceptable and sell/lease/send him to a home where he can be managed differently.

I'm sure you think I'm being mean and horrible and have never faced your dilemma, but I have, and in the last year.

I'm unsure why you joined a UK forum to ask for help on this issue. From what I read, you're far more likely to face criticism by the UK horse community than a US one, I've no idea about Canada. On this forum, for example, you'll find very strong argument that it's wrong for horses to be stabled in single stables at all and wrong to have small turnout areas, and that people who can't provide better shouldn't keep horses at all. Those are not my opinions, but I think it fair to warn you, being a new poster, that so far you've only had answers from the more moderate members of the forum.
.

 

[Goldenstar]

So I think posters need to aware that the grazing situation Op describes is very common in the US and OP is telling it how it is that she can’t magic up a better places nearby .
OP I would look to individual turnout and would also look to ideas to make his life nicer for instance walks in hand about the place if that’s possible I used this to great effect when I was abroad.
I would make sure he gets enough work for him to be lightly tired , some horses are much happier ridden twice several days a week .

 

[SEL]

I'd also check whether he's warm enough. I've had a rude wake up call this week in the UK with one who gets very tetchy unless she's piping hot.

Eyesight ok? My night blind Appy can get difficult in winter and I've wondered if the stress of not being able to see in the dark contributes

 

[Zuzzie]

Would it be possible to turn him out on a shift system so that he is either grazing on his own or with one other? We have 3 horses sharing 2 acres divided into 3 pens but they are only turned out from 10.30 am to 3 pm - mainly due to the fact we have loads of grass and want to avoid laminitis etc. What I'm trying to say is this, you could try dividing the day up so that they are not all crowded together at once.

 

[Michen]

So I think posters need to aware that the grazing situation Op describes is very common in the US and OP is telling it how it is that she can’t magic up a better places nearby .
OP I would look to individual turnout and would also look to ideas to make his life nicer for instance walks in hand about the place if that’s possible I used this to great effect when I was abroad.
I would make sure he gets enough work for him to be lightly tired , some horses are much happier ridden twice several days a week .

Agree with this. Also if you want to keep your horse in work, which kissing spines I’m guessing needs, an indoor IS essential.

There was times where this winter where it was simply too deep to even hack in the snow. Had to trailer down the mountain.

 

[Caol Ila]

Give the OP a break. I was trying to help Michen yard hunt a bit in CO, and there's almost nowhere that offers the sort of pasture turnout that people in the UK expect. Everything is dry-lotted and fairly crammed in. That's not ideal for the OP if her horse isn't coping with it (I feel your pain; my old horse loved the North American system and hated the British one), but she's got what she's got. Most yards will either have individual turnout in postage stamp pens, or group turnout in small paddocks that would give you all conniptions. There ain't a whole lot of options.

Ontario also gets more snow than CO.