GREAT NEWS ABOUT CLARITA!!!!!

[the watcher]

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Nothing wrong with her being in a field. But would be nice for her and GT's if she could poddle around at some point in the future. I breed off my unrideable mares, but not every one is in the position where this is practical.

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Not only not practical maybe, but downright wrong if she does have a weak heart. Indiscriminate breeding from mares solely because they are not fit to work isn't the way forward for the equine industry in this country or anywhere else

 

[brighteyes]

I wish breeding were far more regulated than it is, in every walk of life and especially the horse world.

 

[rosita]

Hence why i stated it is not always practical. Indiscriminate breeding does not come into it on my yard. Any pony bred from is proven on the field with excellent conformation. Ponies with questionable character or unsuitable are pts as if they are so unfit as to carry a foal there is most likely no future for them. The last thing i want for any of my horses is to end up as a broken down wreck in some polo school, underfed and uncared for with ignorants battering their legs with sticks.

 

[Sooty]

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It's all a very personal thing and every case should be treated individually.

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And I think the bottom line in every case everyone involved loves their horse and will make the right decision for them, even if it is the tough one!

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Maybe remember that next time you give someone the advice 'shoot it'!

 

[TGM]

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I'm not sure there are many who in the cold light of day would actually commit to this to be honest. Heck of a commitment.

[/ QUOTE ] I would do, have done and am actually doing it at the moment. BUT, if for any reason I could no longer keep my "pasture ornament" she would be PTS, not passed onto anyone else.

That doesn't mean I think all non-rideable horses should be retired and I can quite understand why people have them put down on economic or quality of life grounds. However, I do not believe that the majority of horses would find life unbearable if they have no job to do!

 

[0]

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It's all a very personal thing and every case should be treated individually.

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And I think the bottom line in every case everyone involved loves their horse and will make the right decision for them, even if it is the tough one!

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I guess the moral of the story - everyone breaks rules for nice horses.

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Everyone thinks that their horse is special/nice though...

I hate the fact that somepeople think that the value of a horses life is directly proporionate to the value it brings to them.
I would not put a horse to sleep just because it couldn't work anymore (unless it wasn't happy either physically or mentally).

I totally agree that 'broken' horses should not trade hands but I really can't believe that the only value a horse has to you is to be ridden and therefore if it can't be it will be shot, Tia, after it has been a contributing member of your collection of horses do you never think that you owe the horse something?

Do you think that old people should be bumped off when they can no longer contribute to society and they cost the state money?

 

[GTs]

I totally agree about breeding - unless it can be proven it is not genetic then she should not be breed. Why do we want to find ourselves in the same position again in 12 years???

I do not think you can compare horses to people - do you owe it to the horse to keep it alive? No I do not think so, I think you owe it to them to make sure they are safe. PTS meets this criteria.

 

[Tia]

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I hate the fact that somepeople think that the value of a horses life is directly proporionate to the value it brings to them.

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I have 22 horses living on my farm - half of them belong to me however ALL of them pay their way. Could you afford to keep 12 lawn ornaments, let alone 12 unhealthy horses? I certainly couldn't and I couldn't afford to keep a horse who will require further vet fees for a condition which may never get better. If I did then I would see this as counterproductive to offering another 2 or 3 horses a happy life.

Thank goodness for people who do place a value on their horses heads, otherwise you would not be able to go to riding schools, trail riding centres, there would be no breeders of quality horses, you wouldn't see the high level of competition that is around and there would be no-one training and bringing on youngsters so that others can also benefit from their expertise.......the list goes on. If all these people were to purely keep duffers then none of this would be available to everyone. I think it might be conducive to this discussion if we were to look at the larger picture here.

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I would not put a horse to sleep just because it couldn't work anymore (unless it wasn't happy either physically or mentally).

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We are talking about a sick horse - so I believe you have answered your own comment here; the horse is not physically sound.

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I really can't believe that the only value a horse has to you is to be ridden and therefore if it can't be it will be shot, Tia,

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I don't remember saying that every horse without a purpose has to be shot? I do however recall answering this question earlier "if they didn't have a purpose then they would be sold." (Just to be clear on this; my horses all have varying purposes- not all of those purposes are for ridden work or to be used for trail riding.) However I would NEVER sell on a horse with a serious heart condition, therefore if the cost of treatment were great or was going to be ongoing for the next 20 years then yes the horse would be shot except in a situation where I have previously quoted "unless I owed that horse big time or had an overwhelming adoration for it".

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after it has been a contributing member of your collection of horses do you never think that you owe the horse something?

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I believe I also answered this question; "unless I owed that horse big time or had an overwhelming adoration for it, then sorry but it wouldn't remain here".

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Do you think that old people should be bumped off when they can no longer contribute to society and they cost the state money?

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Pardon? I think you are confusing horses with humans here. I apologise but I truly can't see the relevance of this comment.

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[S_N]

Ahhh Bless Clarita! She always came across in your posts and pm's about her as a real sweetheart! If her new owner can keep her then that's great.

 

[rosita]

Quite. Practicality is all anyone can fall back on. A rest in the field and revaluate is what a friend of mine did. 2 years later the horse was retested and the (heart) problem had cleared. Inexplicable, but she carried on to play till 18, now retired and poddleing happily round the lanes at a loan home. There can be happy endings. As i stated, a horse has to be suitable to carry a foal, if not explore other options! If you're lucky to have your own land the options are wider!

 

[0]

Fistly I think what you say about the value of a horses life is missing the point. We have both agreed that we would not pass on or sell on a horse which can't do it's job anymore. Therefore, the horses we are talking about are ones that you already own and they were good enough for the job you got then for whether that be trail riding, olympic dressage...whatever. So we are talking about the horses you already have getting ill or injured and thus they can not do the job that you bought them for and therefore you would shoot it........that means that the value the horse had to you was only the job it did for you because as soon as it can't do it you'd shoot it.
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there would be no breeders of quality horses, you wouldn't see the high level of competition that is around and there would be no-one training and bringing on youngsters so that others can also benefit from their expertise.......

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I don't see how this is relevant, we are talking about keeping a horse you already have that did do it's job. I would never advocate breeding from rubbish stock - I think breeding should be far more regulated than it is.

I didn't answer my own question - just because a horse can't be ridden doesn't mean it can't live very happily in the field.

And I asked about humans just to see if your view extended to all life or just horses.

 

[Tia]

Sorry but I really don't think I am missing the point. I have fully expanded on why horses have a value - if they were not to have a value then they are worthless......fact. What that value may be is dependent on whom you are and what value you place on the said horse.

We were not talking about my healthy horses here though and incidentally we were not even talking about GTs horse; he sold her. What we were talking about was a sick horse - and I believe I did clearly put my point across on this on several occasions on this thread?

Since you have brought my horses into this equation - you are very misguided if you believe that ALL of my horses were/are bought for making money and sending them off to be trail ridden. That is not the case I'm afraid:

I brought a little pony here from England at vast expense to myself, because for one; she is VERY VERY important to me and I absolutely and unequivocally adore this pony. She also happens to be the love of my little daughters life. This pony has never, and will never, make me any money. This pony's value to me is pure joy.

I have a stallion who was bought as a either to be seller on or become a trail horse, however he broke his neck almost 2 years ago and was at death's door for many months; he will NEVER ever be sold. His purpose here at the farm is that he is the Daddy of some babies not yet born. His other purpose is that he is incredibly beautiful and I enjoy his company immensely. As a breeding stallion with incredibly rare bloodlines he is worth a large amount of money, but that is not relevant to me as he will never leave my ownership. His value to me is that I have an overwhelming feeling of responsibility for him AND I happen to very much love this horse.

I have a 20 year old horse who was given to me - he has made me no money but he has also not cost me anything; one of my boarders has taken him on full loan so she pays for his keep. He can never leave this farm as he was given to me on trust and my husband enjoys riding him so if his loaner gave him back then he will still have a purpose until he dies.

I have a tiny little Arab who is supposed to be a seller on at some point - perhaps she will be sold at some time in the future, perhaps she won't; I have no way of knowing this. Right now she is giving my 10 year old daughter the wonderful experience of learning to break her first pony on her own. The pony doesn't cost me a whole lot and when she almost ripped her leg off, she had the veterinary attention that she needed to see her well again. Her value is experience for my daughter and I think she is pretty cute. Even if I do end up selling her, she will never make me the money I have put into her, but the knowledge my daughter will have gained from her is worth a great deal to me.

As I said many times before, any horse owned by me that I am indebted to, will have a home for life providing they do not have on-going expensive medical issues for 20 years - if this is the case then yes they will be shot. There is no way that I would jeopardise the care and attention and financial commitments for all of the other horses because of one sick one. Keeping 11 horses happy and healthy is more important to me than saving just 1 I'm afraid.

As for horses being happy in a field, some are; no two ways about it. Some aren't. It also depends on the "field" and the level of care offered to this field-horse. If no-one pays for it to be wormed, rugged, fed, vaccinated, deal with other health issues, have it's feet trimmed regularly and have loving companionship then no I don't believe it will be happy in a field. If it is cared for in the correct manner and has access to lots of large fields where it can be carefree then yes the likelihood is it will be happy in a field.

That is by the by though - if I can't afford to keep a sick horse in a field or pay for it's veterinary treatment for 20 years then it's future needs to be seriously looked at.

 

[0]

You said that you would not sell / pass on a horse with health problems (which i agree with). You also said that you would not keep a horse that did not serve a purpose , (you seem to have found a purpose for all the horses above, so they aren't really what i'm debating about). So i presume that horses you cannot find a purpose for and will not sell on you shoot??
That is what I am saying I disagree with......I would (and have done - at great expence) keep a horse that can not do any job as long as it is happy to be in retirement - if it is not of course it would be pts.

 

[Tia]

I really don't want to appear inconsiderate here, but I think I have fully answered every question you have put to me? I can't help but feel that we are going round and round in circles here? Every time I answer the question it seems that the parameters change or the same question is put to me again - I can only suggest you re-read all of my posts which took me time to construct in as clear a fashion as is possible.....well I thought so anyway, LOL!!

I have already answered several times that IF I cannot find a purpose for a horse (this doesn't necessarily mean that it's purpose remains the same throughout it's whole life) and I don't have an enormous debt to this horse OR that it does not have a special place in my heart then yes it would be sold. If it will be costing me large sums of money in vet fees because it is a case of long-term illness with no positive prognosis, which in turn could compromise the care and attention of all of the other horses, then yes it would be shot.

 

[0]

I wasn't questioning you - I understand what you are saying and I said I disagree.
I think we will have to agree to disagree

 

[GTs]

Purpose is all relative - Tia has stated most of her horses purpose is to earn money, but she also mentioned the little pony is to bring joy to the family. As long as they keep doing that, she will keep paying for them.

 

[0]

yes but if they don't do that then she won't

 

[GTs]

And that is fine.

 

[0]

Well I don't think it is

 

[Tia]

Thanks GTs - I believe you totally understand what I have written. I tried to be as clear as possible but it appears that it was as clear as mud.

For OP - purpose is often changeable, purpose is generally never static, purpose is not necessarily financial, purpose is whatever anyone wishes it to be.....please re-read this sentence a couple more times before moving on, then you may finally figure out exactly what I am saying.

I don't think you understand "purpose". I don't think you can understand life with having the responsibility of more than a couple of horses, so you may never be able to understand what I am saying. I am champion for the greater good of the many - not for the few. If I ran my farm down with dead-beats I would have no farm....I would have no horses......I would have no livelihood. I believe my life may be too alien for you to comprehend but if I can give you a thought which is put into your terms perhaps it may help: Your husband/parents/you/whatever all lose their jobs and their whole livelihood - you have barely any income as a result of this - you have 1 horse who is costing more to keep alive than the state benefits you and your family find you are having to live on now ........... ?

 

[Tia]

What isn't? Please I really do urge you to read all of my posts over again as I do not feel that you have understood or even read anything that I have written

.

 

[vicijp]

The mud is clear round by these ere parts.

 

[0]

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For OP - purpose is often changeable, purpose is generally never static, purpose is not necessarily financial, purpose is whatever anyone wishes it to be.....please re-read this sentence a couple more times before moving on, then you may finally figure out exactly what I am saying.

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The funny thing to me is I don't think you understand what I am saying. Yes of course purpose is changable etc etc but you said that once it has NO purpose (ie no more options) you would sell it or shoot it depending why it had no purpose............I do not agree with that.

 

[Tia]

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The funny thing to me is I don't think you understand what I am saying.

[/ QUOTE ] I'm really not convinced that you do.

Anyway - finally, yes you are absolutely right - the moment I cannot possibly find a purpose for a horse is the moment it will be sold or shot. To keep something with no purpose means that it is worthless which in turn means it will not be given a proper and compassionate life.

You believe that it is worth keeping something that is worthless - seems odd and slightly cruel to me but there you go, it's what keeps the world spinning I guess.

 

[0]

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Anyway - finally, yes you are absolutely right - the moment I cannot possibly find a purpose for a horse is the moment it will be sold or shot.

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Well that is what I have been saying I don't agree with all the time - I don't know why that is so hard to understand, obviously you disagree - that is fine but I would keep it and yes I would spend money to worm it, have it's feet done etc. even if it couldn't give anything back

 

[GTs]

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Yes of course purpose is changable etc etc but you said that once it has NO purpose (ie no more options) you would sell it or shoot it

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She would not sell it only shoot it - Tia much like myself do not agree with selling horses that have problems. It is not fair on the horse, horses do not get disability cheques from the government if they are not healthy enough for a job.

 

[0]

did you read anything I wrote??
I have said about 3 times that I would not sell such a horse but i would not shoot it either - i would keep it in the field bring it in groom it, have its teeth, feet done etc - infact the same as you say they are going to do with Clarita which you call "good news"

 

[S_N]

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Yes of course purpose is changable etc etc but you said that once it has NO purpose (ie no more options) you would sell it or shoot it

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She would not sell it only shoot it - Tia much like myself do not agree with selling horses that have problems. It is not fair on the horse, horses do not get disability cheques from the government if they are not healthy enough for a job.

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Which is essentially what Topper's previous owner should have had the gutts to do!!

 

[S_N]

I suppose then that you think I was cruel to have Topper PTS then? I still feel that things should have been different, but in my heart of hearts, I do know that it would have been the same end result - a bullet

 

[GTs]

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did you read anything I wrote??
I have said about 3 times that I would not sell such a horse but i would not shoot it either - i would keep it in the field bring it in groom it, have its teeth, feet done etc - infact the same as you say they are going to do with Clarita which you call "good news"

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That is your personal decision, which is perfectly fine. You have lucky horses, however owners are not obligated to do that. If they choose not to, or could not then putting down is the right decision IMHO!