minmax
Well-Known Member
Oh, I'm glad my little man seems to be in keeping, He has Wendekries on dams side and Nimmerdor, Ladykiller on sires side. I hope hes dual perpose tho!
Greatest jumping sires of all time...
- Thread starter Cruiseonamiro
- Start date
Navalgem
Well-Known Member
What about Le Mexico, Farn, Lord, Lucky Boy xx, Ahorn?
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the other two is that they haven't created a dynasty in the same way as a number of those listed above. By that I mean, where are the truly great breeding offspring from them?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah - you're right there. That King of Diamonds had a small claim to fame - but a mere 40 Approved stallion sons - some of whom weren't THAT good - doesn't really cut the mustard these days, does it!
Forget Glidawn Diamond, Diamond Lad (sire of Heather Blaze- Canadian Airlines Challenge, Calgary. King George V Gold Cup at Hickstead, UK. Pavoritti Nations Cup. Millstreet Derby etc.); Diamonds Are Trumps (sire of Can Can- world cup finalist) Kildalton Gold and Kildalton King. And forget Flagmount Diamond and Flagmount King.
On the mare side, you can ignore Kildalton Rose, dam of the multiple international winner Convent Hill Diamond (British Speed Grand Prix, Pavortti Speed Champion etc.)
Forget Mill Pearl (olympic medalist etc.) Special Envoy (Aachen Grand Prix etc.) Millstreet Ruby etc... Forget Hopes Are High (winner of $800,000 Du Maurier Grand Prix at Calgary. The Grand Prix of Dublin, Gijon &King George V Gold Cup, Hickstead 99)
Forget the daughters and grand-daughters producing some 700 foals a year - some of whom go on to be top class - some of whom just win around all the local circuits for amateur owner/riders - or hunt the bigger hunt countries clearing 5 foot hedges for fun.
I've forgotten dozens - if not hundreds - and of course we can forget that he created HIS dynasty with the geographical constraints of being at stud at a time and in a place when AI was virtually unheard of for Irish Draught stallions!
The problem with the other two is that they haven't created a dynasty in the same way as a number of those listed above. By that I mean, where are the truly great breeding offspring from them?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah - you're right there. That King of Diamonds had a small claim to fame - but a mere 40 Approved stallion sons - some of whom weren't THAT good - doesn't really cut the mustard these days, does it!
Forget Glidawn Diamond, Diamond Lad (sire of Heather Blaze- Canadian Airlines Challenge, Calgary. King George V Gold Cup at Hickstead, UK. Pavoritti Nations Cup. Millstreet Derby etc.); Diamonds Are Trumps (sire of Can Can- world cup finalist) Kildalton Gold and Kildalton King. And forget Flagmount Diamond and Flagmount King.
On the mare side, you can ignore Kildalton Rose, dam of the multiple international winner Convent Hill Diamond (British Speed Grand Prix, Pavortti Speed Champion etc.)
Forget Mill Pearl (olympic medalist etc.) Special Envoy (Aachen Grand Prix etc.) Millstreet Ruby etc... Forget Hopes Are High (winner of $800,000 Du Maurier Grand Prix at Calgary. The Grand Prix of Dublin, Gijon &King George V Gold Cup, Hickstead 99)
Forget the daughters and grand-daughters producing some 700 foals a year - some of whom go on to be top class - some of whom just win around all the local circuits for amateur owner/riders - or hunt the bigger hunt countries clearing 5 foot hedges for fun.
I've forgotten dozens - if not hundreds - and of course we can forget that he created HIS dynasty with the geographical constraints of being at stud at a time and in a place when AI was virtually unheard of for Irish Draught stallions!
birchave0
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the other two is that they haven't created a dynasty in the same way as a number of those listed above. By that I mean, where are the truly great breeding offspring from them?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah - you're right there. That King of Diamonds had a small claim to fame - but a mere 40 Approved stallion sons - some of whom weren't THAT good - doesn't really cut the mustard these days, does it!
Forget Glidawn Diamond, Diamond Lad (sire of Heather Blaze- Canadian Airlines Challenge, Calgary. King George V Gold Cup at Hickstead, UK. Pavoritti Nations Cup. Millstreet Derby etc.); Diamonds Are Trumps (sire of Can Can- world cup finalist) Kildalton Gold and Kildalton King. And forget Flagmount Diamond and Flagmount King.
On the mare side, you can ignore Kildalton Rose, dam of the multiple international winner Convent Hill Diamond (British Speed Grand Prix, Pavortti Speed Champion etc.)
Forget Mill Pearl (olympic medalist etc.) Special Envoy (Aachen Grand Prix etc.) Millstreet Ruby etc... Forget Hopes Are High (winner of $800,000 Du Maurier Grand Prix at Calgary. The Grand Prix of Dublin, Gijon &King George V Gold Cup, Hickstead 99)
Forget the daughters and grand-daughters producing some 700 foals a year - some of whom go on to be top class - some of whom just win around all the local circuits for amateur owner/riders - or hunt the bigger hunt countries clearing 5 foot hedges for fun.
I've forgotten dozens - if not hundreds - and of course we can forget that he created HIS dynasty with the geographical constraints of being at stud at a time and in a place when AI was virtually unheard of for Irish Draught stallions!
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the other two is that they haven't created a dynasty in the same way as a number of those listed above. By that I mean, where are the truly great breeding offspring from them?
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah - you're right there. That King of Diamonds had a small claim to fame - but a mere 40 Approved stallion sons - some of whom weren't THAT good - doesn't really cut the mustard these days, does it!
Forget Glidawn Diamond, Diamond Lad (sire of Heather Blaze- Canadian Airlines Challenge, Calgary. King George V Gold Cup at Hickstead, UK. Pavoritti Nations Cup. Millstreet Derby etc.); Diamonds Are Trumps (sire of Can Can- world cup finalist) Kildalton Gold and Kildalton King. And forget Flagmount Diamond and Flagmount King.
On the mare side, you can ignore Kildalton Rose, dam of the multiple international winner Convent Hill Diamond (British Speed Grand Prix, Pavortti Speed Champion etc.)
Forget Mill Pearl (olympic medalist etc.) Special Envoy (Aachen Grand Prix etc.) Millstreet Ruby etc... Forget Hopes Are High (winner of $800,000 Du Maurier Grand Prix at Calgary. The Grand Prix of Dublin, Gijon &King George V Gold Cup, Hickstead 99)
Forget the daughters and grand-daughters producing some 700 foals a year - some of whom go on to be top class - some of whom just win around all the local circuits for amateur owner/riders - or hunt the bigger hunt countries clearing 5 foot hedges for fun.
I've forgotten dozens - if not hundreds - and of course we can forget that he created HIS dynasty with the geographical constraints of being at stud at a time and in a place when AI was virtually unheard of for Irish Draught stallions!
[/ QUOTE ]
Faithkat
Well-Known Member
You've got them all!
My filly's g/g/sires are Voltaire and Ramiro . . . .
My filly's g/g/sires are Voltaire and Ramiro . . . .
casey2312
Well-Known Member
Luidam
Ramiro
Darko
Ramiro
Darko
Damien
Well-Known Member
Lord was listed I checked .........
one more to add to the pot for me would be Landadel.......... and think having Le Tot in there one could throw in Grand Veneur for good measure....... and as we have gone back as far as Cottage Son then perhpas we should go back a generation or two and list the great anglo sire Ramzes..
but you know the saying "behind every good man is a good woman.......... "
So who were the greatest mares......................
one more to add to the pot for me would be Landadel.......... and think having Le Tot in there one could throw in Grand Veneur for good measure....... and as we have gone back as far as Cottage Son then perhpas we should go back a generation or two and list the great anglo sire Ramzes..
but you know the saying "behind every good man is a good woman.......... "
So who were the greatest mares......................
firm
Well-Known Member
Opie- sounds like a new thread for the mares maybe
I can't think of any others to add - some amazing stallions.
JG - thank you for what you have written about KOD especially with the recent sad loss of Loftus O'Neil. KOD had only 546 registered offspring, if IHB figures are correct, where as I have read Darco for instance is at 3000 so I think KOD is a very worthy SJ sire.
One Irish horse I would have loved to have been a stallion was Loro Piana Tomboy
to see what he could have produced.
I can't think of any others to add - some amazing stallions.
JG - thank you for what you have written about KOD especially with the recent sad loss of Loftus O'Neil. KOD had only 546 registered offspring, if IHB figures are correct, where as I have read Darco for instance is at 3000 so I think KOD is a very worthy SJ sire.
One Irish horse I would have loved to have been a stallion was Loro Piana Tomboy
magic104
Well-Known Member
Not so easy for the mares, they have in the past been restricted to 1 foal a yr and as it takes 5yrs to come under saddle. Along with the fact that they get left out when it comes to logging any info, ie how many even get a photo & write up? I think their list is going to be a fair bit shorter! I agreed though I think mares should get more of a mention.
Ken I think it was pretty insulting to dismiss KOD as he has left a legacy, there is no doubt about that. He still has offspring doing very well in this modern age! At the end of the day the post was entitled Greatest jumping sires of all time. He may not do so well himself in todays competition, but then neither would Stroller in all honesty but no one dismisses his past achievements so lightly.
Ken I think it was pretty insulting to dismiss KOD as he has left a legacy, there is no doubt about that. He still has offspring doing very well in this modern age! At the end of the day the post was entitled Greatest jumping sires of all time. He may not do so well himself in todays competition, but then neither would Stroller in all honesty but no one dismisses his past achievements so lightly.
JanetGeorge
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
JG - thank you for what you have written about KOD especially with the recent sad loss of Loftus O'Neil. KOD had only 546 registered offspring, if IHB figures are correct, where as I have read Darco for instance is at 3000 so I think KOD is a very worthy SJ sire.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep - that's about right - although you have to remember that the Irish were always rather bad at registering horses - particularly geldings! Even pure-bred Irish Draughts just 'disappear' in the market place. I have a sport horse mare out of an 'irish' mare |(breeding unrecorded) who I'd swear was KoD - she has the little white diamond shaped patch on the shoulder that so many of his progeny have - and the rather plain head!!
But sh*t she can jump!!
Basically, if it comes out of Ireland with unrecorded parentage (particularly on the mare side) there's a HUGE chance it has KoD lines - over 85% of the Irish mare herd has KoD, Clover Hill, and/or Pride of Shaunlara blood!
JG - thank you for what you have written about KOD especially with the recent sad loss of Loftus O'Neil. KOD had only 546 registered offspring, if IHB figures are correct, where as I have read Darco for instance is at 3000 so I think KOD is a very worthy SJ sire.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep - that's about right - although you have to remember that the Irish were always rather bad at registering horses - particularly geldings! Even pure-bred Irish Draughts just 'disappear' in the market place. I have a sport horse mare out of an 'irish' mare |(breeding unrecorded) who I'd swear was KoD - she has the little white diamond shaped patch on the shoulder that so many of his progeny have - and the rather plain head!!
Basically, if it comes out of Ireland with unrecorded parentage (particularly on the mare side) there's a HUGE chance it has KoD lines - over 85% of the Irish mare herd has KoD, Clover Hill, and/or Pride of Shaunlara blood!
S_N
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
What about Le Mexico, Farn, Lord, Lucky Boy xx, Ahorn?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahorn Z or Olympic Ahorn?
What about Le Mexico, Farn, Lord, Lucky Boy xx, Ahorn?
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahorn Z or Olympic Ahorn?
mistered
Well-Known Member
Wolfang, Nimmerador???
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
How about Greeton du Rezidal?
His progeny include Milton, Crown Derby and Crown Rhodonite (oh, and my mare's sire
)
His progeny include Milton, Crown Derby and Crown Rhodonite (oh, and my mare's sire
cruiseline
Well-Known Member
Both Wolfgang and Nimmerdor are by Farn, I would consider them as modern day sires
I would like to bring Elf III, Uriel and Starter in to the list.
I would like to bring Elf III, Uriel and Starter in to the list.
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How about Greeton du Rezidal?
His progeny include Milton, Crown Derby and Crown Rhodonite (oh, and my mare's sire
)
[/ QUOTE ]
Greeton du Rezidal as sire of Milton -- I don't think so. The Connemara teasing stallion at Johhn Roll's stud (was that Celtic Truska Prince?) probably, Marius possibly (but unlikely as even the stud groom thought differently), but G de R definetly not.
in fact if it had happened it would actually almost have been a case of the old music hall song 'I'm my own grandpa' coming true as GdeR's dam Aston Answer was also Milton's dam. BTW, there is another breeding myth here as well. When asked by people how Milton came to be, Fergie Graham used to say that he advised John Rolls (who owned Marius -- originally called Middle Road of course as he was sold to him by FG as an Irish horse by Middle Temple not a failed Dutch stallion by Marco Polo) to cover Aston Answer with Marius as AA was very fast around a course of fences and Marius was more careful. As AA was only 2 years old at the time that would have been a little hard to prove I would have thought but for years this was held up as an outstanding example of British breeding. Of course, most people in the know now believe the stud groom who said the Connie got there first!
What a pity DNA testing didn't exist then, the results could well have been fascinating, but of course we will never really know for certain now.
How about Greeton du Rezidal?
His progeny include Milton, Crown Derby and Crown Rhodonite (oh, and my mare's sire
[/ QUOTE ]
Greeton du Rezidal as sire of Milton -- I don't think so. The Connemara teasing stallion at Johhn Roll's stud (was that Celtic Truska Prince?) probably, Marius possibly (but unlikely as even the stud groom thought differently), but G de R definetly not.
in fact if it had happened it would actually almost have been a case of the old music hall song 'I'm my own grandpa' coming true as GdeR's dam Aston Answer was also Milton's dam. BTW, there is another breeding myth here as well. When asked by people how Milton came to be, Fergie Graham used to say that he advised John Rolls (who owned Marius -- originally called Middle Road of course as he was sold to him by FG as an Irish horse by Middle Temple not a failed Dutch stallion by Marco Polo) to cover Aston Answer with Marius as AA was very fast around a course of fences and Marius was more careful. As AA was only 2 years old at the time that would have been a little hard to prove I would have thought but for years this was held up as an outstanding example of British breeding. Of course, most people in the know now believe the stud groom who said the Connie got there first!
What a pity DNA testing didn't exist then, the results could well have been fascinating, but of course we will never really know for certain now.
firm
Well-Known Member
That is really interesting Ciss
Did Aston Answer have any other foals?
Did Aston Answer have any other foals?
Navalgem
Well-Known Member
oooh Uriel and Starter certainly 
Both Ahorn's are fantastic horses, both by stallions mentioned on here earlier, Ahorn Z by Alme Z and Olympic Ahorn by Nimmerdor, however I think their record and progeny mean they each deserve a mention in their own right...... (they both feature in my mare's pedigree, therefore I am I'm biased
)
Both Ahorn's are fantastic horses, both by stallions mentioned on here earlier, Ahorn Z by Alme Z and Olympic Ahorn by Nimmerdor, however I think their record and progeny mean they each deserve a mention in their own right...... (they both feature in my mare's pedigree, therefore I am I'm biased
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
That is really interesting Ciss
Did Aston Answer have any other foals?
[/ QUOTE ]
FG said that she was sold to the Gustaviis in Sweden as a foundation mare but she does not appear to be in the pedigree of any of the Irco horses, but I may be missing something here or perhaps the pedigrees on the Del Monte site are incorrect (always a possibility). The Gustaviis then came to the UK abd based themselves at Crockstead but I think that they are selling up now as they have the place next to Nikolas Van Hoogstraten which cannot be very nice to say the least :-(
That is really interesting Ciss
Did Aston Answer have any other foals?
[/ QUOTE ]
FG said that she was sold to the Gustaviis in Sweden as a foundation mare but she does not appear to be in the pedigree of any of the Irco horses, but I may be missing something here or perhaps the pedigrees on the Del Monte site are incorrect (always a possibility). The Gustaviis then came to the UK abd based themselves at Crockstead but I think that they are selling up now as they have the place next to Nikolas Van Hoogstraten which cannot be very nice to say the least :-(
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
Oops... that shows me not to do two things at once
Writing quotes and typing is not really the best way
Sorry, I meant to type that Milton was his half brothers out of the dam Aston Answer and he was by Galant de la Cour
And Greeton's progeny includes Crown Derby and Crown Rhodonite
Sorry again... in future I will dedicate 100% attention to my posts. Work will just have to wait
Sorry, I meant to type that Milton was his half brothers out of the dam Aston Answer and he was by Galant de la Cour
Sorry again... in future I will dedicate 100% attention to my posts. Work will just have to wait
magic104
Well-Known Member
Coolcorran Cool Diamond - by Glidawn Diamond (full brother to Diamonds are Trumps) out of a Bronti mare.
Diamonds are Trumps is one of four stallions that were full brothers all by the great King of Diamonds and out of the highly influential mare Kildalton Countess.
King of Diamonds, born in 1962, was a Grade A showjumper. He was described as the single best known Irish Draught of modern times and the saviour of the Irish Draught as a breed, as a result of his prepotent jumping ability (The Irish Draught Horse).
King of Diamonds is ranked 21st in the World Breeding Rankings for the period 1992 - 2001 on the basis of 19 of his progeny, including Rodrigo Pessoa's Special Envoy, John Ledingham's Millstreet Ruby, and Joe Fargis' Mill Pearl.
The above gives mention to a mare so that is a start and of course backs up the fact that KOD can't be so easily dismissed as one of the Greatest Jumping sires of all time!
Diamonds are Trumps is one of four stallions that were full brothers all by the great King of Diamonds and out of the highly influential mare Kildalton Countess.
King of Diamonds, born in 1962, was a Grade A showjumper. He was described as the single best known Irish Draught of modern times and the saviour of the Irish Draught as a breed, as a result of his prepotent jumping ability (The Irish Draught Horse).
King of Diamonds is ranked 21st in the World Breeding Rankings for the period 1992 - 2001 on the basis of 19 of his progeny, including Rodrigo Pessoa's Special Envoy, John Ledingham's Millstreet Ruby, and Joe Fargis' Mill Pearl.
The above gives mention to a mare so that is a start and of course backs up the fact that KOD can't be so easily dismissed as one of the Greatest Jumping sires of all time!
volatis
Well-Known Member
My top living sires that I just have a preference for include
For Pleasure
Cornet Obolensky
Espri
Of the really immortal ones I would think of
Pilot
Argentinus
Alme
Landgraf
Cor De La Bryere
For Pleasure
Cornet Obolensky
Espri
Of the really immortal ones I would think of
Pilot
Argentinus
Alme
Landgraf
Cor De La Bryere
Amaretto
Well-Known Member
Any views on Numero Uno? Have a 3 year old by him, out of a Purioso mare.