Grooms/working in exchange for livery

tobiano1984

tobiano1984

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I know this has been done many times, but just wanted thoughts as this isn't just work in exchange for payment. I have a small yard, my own horses and DIY liveries. As I don't have enough work to justify someone full time or even many hours a day I've had a mix of a part time groom for a couple of hours a few days a week and then a girl who had free livery in exchange for bits of help like mucking out here and there and bringing horses in. The free livery moved a couple of months ago, and the groom is sadly leaving soon, so looking at my options. One of my current liveries is interested in working in exchange for livery, and I'm just struggling with how to work it, partly because she's older than the others (they were teenagers/at uni so the pay was minimal).

I know what the NMW is, but I feel it's a bit different when someone is already at the yard twice a day, and just doing some extras not as a source of income. Spending an extra 20 mins bringing in a couple of horses isn't the same as having to drive over, do it, and drive home again! For the new set up I'll happily give free livery (normally £150 a month) plus extra cash if needed - but just not sure how to work it out! Generally it'd be a couple of days a week mucking out or poo picking 3 easy horses, and bringing in/rugging/feeding several times a week plus holiday cover (infrequent). I don't really want to do it hourly as there's no pressure on when they do it or how quickly they do it. I want it to be fairly casual, so what would you think is reasonable to ask someone to do each week for £35/week? And then if there's more on top of that, how much should they get?

If anyone is on either end of a similar arrangement I'd love to hear how you do it!
 
tobiano1984 said:
I know what the NMW is, but I feel it's a bit different when someone is already at the yard twice a day, and just doing some extras not as a source of income.
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It's irrelevant as to whether the employee is 'already at the yard' or not, they are entitled to the NMW for the hours they work. Of course their wages are a 'source of income', it's irrelevant whether you or they consider it to be pin money.

However, in practice, many livery yards and equine establishments fly below the radar with various non legal ad hoc arrangements...
 
You just can't do this as a business it's unlawful .
I could have a friend keep her horse on my yard and get her to help me and have no money change hands and that would be one thing it's barter and as old as the hills but a business can't do that .
There's a weekly limit on what your allowed to deduct as an employer for things like keep of a horse I don't know what it is now .
 
Employment legalities aside, I don't see any fair/transparent way to do it other than on an approximate hourly basis.

Id say minimum £7ph, this is well below what a freelancer would charge
 
I used to look after the full liveries when my YO was away (some time ago as mine are at home now). I used to get free livery for several horses and free hay/straw. It probably worked out at about £7.50-£8 an hour in monetary value (I think the min wage was in the region of £5.50-£6 at the time). I'm not sure of the legalities of that arrangement but it worked for us...
 
Bear in mind this isn't a business, it is looking after my own horses, not liveries?? My yard isn't my work - I just have a few friends on DIY to help fund my own habit. And yes it would be a barter agreement unless extra work required for holiday cover - no money would actually change hands. To my mind, that isn't much different to offering someone a share/ride on your horse in exchange for mucking it out...? Except I'm offering a stable instead of a horse to ride.

And the person in question is a freelance groom anyway so the legals of insurance/tax etc are not really applicable here as I wouldn't be their main source of income, not that it would even be income as it is a barter agreement. So she also wouldn't be an employee of mine. All I'm wondering is whether I equate the value of her livery to £x/hour or £x per job/horse, and how much that might be.
 
You'd have to work out how much she is worth to you per hour and then how many hours she will be doing, and knock that off her bill. If she's going to be good at it and reliable that would be worth a lot to me. Also what would it cost to have someone else do it (and could you get someone else to come and put out a couple of horses, probably not, you would have to pay for a minimum time they came for or it wouldn't be worth them doing it).
 
Make a list of the daily tasks (weekly if more appropriate) and put a realistic time against each - multiply total by at least NMW and present to your livery as what you'd offset against her bill - then negotiate till you're both happy.
Be clear about expected tasks from the start and agree prices for any extras so everyone's clear where they stand from the start.
YO at a previous yard had a fairly high turnover of people with this type of 'work for livery' arrangement as she never had any formal agreements with anyone and would keep adding more & more till livery would understandably realise they were working for pittance and move on.
OP I'm not suggesting you're looking to take advantage of anyone, just advising that clear expectations and agreement on both sides from the start is the only way for this kind of arrangement to be successful.
Good luck
 
I'd agree a set cost per job per horse, and agree set jobs and days per week, and work out that value. You'd need to think about how you coped with extras, especially if the cost of the work or the extras becomes worth more than the livery - which it could easily do. I'd decide on a fair price per hour (probably about a tenner), work out a fair time for each job and cost it accordingly.

I'd also work hard to make sure everything is kept very clear and upfront - especially if the workload changes a lot. Some sort of easy chart or list would be sensible so you can both see exactly where you are - it's an arrangement that could cause some ill feeling if either side feels they're getting a raw deal, so you can avoid that by being clear and professional.
 
Some years ago I got free livery - stable, grazing, haylage, shavings, feed - in exchange for 'helping' the YO - mucking out, filling nets, water buckets, taking in / out of field, changing rugs, cleaning tack, tacking up for her - No money was exchanged & I did this 7 mornings a week, usually 3 hours, but could swop mornings for afternoons or day off for a whole day. Just whatever suited us both. It worked well for both of us.
 
Mari said:
Some years ago I got free livery - stable, grazing, haylage, shavings, feed - in exchange for 'helping' the YO - mucking out, filling nets, water buckets, taking in / out of field, changing rugs, cleaning tack, tacking up for her - No money was exchanged & I did this 7 mornings a week, usually 3 hours, but could swop mornings for afternoons or day off for a whole day. Just whatever suited us both. It worked well for both of us.
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Your YO got an excellent deal - that sounds like about £60 worth of livery for 21 hours work!! If it worked for you then it's irrelevant, but it illustrates the relative worth of these things and how quickly they can become skewed.
 
Theocat said:
Your YO got an excellent deal - that sounds like about £60 worth of livery for 21 hours work!! If it worked for you then it's irrelevant, but it illustrates the relative worth of these things and how quickly they can become skewed.
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Yes sounds like a very good deal for the YO!! 21 hours work per week if paid the national living wage (£7.20 per hour) works out at over £150!!
 
bollybop said:
Isn't any livery yard a business? Regardless if they are your friends or not?
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I think the OP is saying that they wouldn't be working for the livery business; they'd be working for / in an agreement with the OP as an individual.


If they did work for the business it would presumably change things considerably.
 
I do this with my yard owner and it works quite well, it's a private yard. I get £8 per hour knocked off my bill and I just jot down what hours I've done. I then get a flat £5 for filling all the haynets as everyone hates that job!
 
I have someone who has free DIY livery in return for three hours work a week. She is self employed already and does the hours to suit her. I have insurance for DIY and employers liability, although I do not run a livery yard.
I would make sure your fully insured.
 
Theocat said:
I think the OP is saying that they wouldn't be working for the livery business; they'd be working for / in an agreement with the OP as an individual.


If they did work for the business it would presumably change things considerably.
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I've just realised I haven't worded this clearly - I meant that if the individual is only looking after the OPs horses, that's a bit different to looking after the other livery horses.

Also meant to add - agree with the others; the DIY liveries do constitute a business even if they only bring in a tiny amount / are only there to subsidise the OPs horses.
 
Theocat said:
I've just realised I haven't worded this clearly - I meant that if the individual is only looking after the OPs horses, that's a bit different to looking after the other livery horses.

Also meant to add - agree with the others; the DIY liveries do constitute a business even if they only bring in a tiny amount / are only there to subsidise the OPs horses.
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The livery side of the yard is above board - goes through HMRC and I pay business rates on it!
But yes the person in question would only be looking after my pet horses, not any liveries and also as a freelance groom has her own insurance.
 
If the person is self employed and a director of their own company, you don't have to pay them national minimum wage. Offer someone what you want to pay and they either accept your terms or not.

I know a yard owner who has staff living on site who get paid, but who are charged for livery, accommodation, transport, etc. The net result is that the staff are lucky if they leave not owing the YO money.
 
Mince Pie said:
£150 a month for livery equates to 20.8/21 hours, so any more than that would need to be paid for.
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Technically if HMRC ever became aware of the arrangement both parties could be in trouble ,and that is not impossible as the groom is already working on a self employed basis so any tax investigation may bring it to light. Tax would be due on the livery!

However I am sure this is known by the OP as this whole arrangement seems to want to avoid all these financial issues. If the FL groom is indeed SE the minimum wage regs do not apply anyhow. Its just their stupidity if they are prepared to accept that payment when if they are any good they could be earning a lot more.
 
tobiano1984 said:
The livery side of the yard is above board - goes through HMRC and I pay business rates on it!
But yes the person in question would only be looking after my pet horses, not any liveries and also as a freelance groom has her own insurance.
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Her own insurance means diddly squat if theres an accident you as the yard owner can be held liable for you must have employers liability cover as its a legal requirement if employing anybody which in this case you are it matters not if its business or private. It really sounds like this arrangment is just designed to circumvent your responsibilities.
 
popsdosh said:
Her own insurance means diddly squat if theres an accident you as the yard owner can be held liable for you must have employers liability cover as its a legal requirement if employing anybody which in this case you are it matters not if its business or private. It really sounds like this arrangment is just designed to circumvent your responsibilities.
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That's not quite true .
The NFU covers our liability including our freelancers it's not full employers liability as we are not running a buisiness .
 
I think you may need to be a little cautious about this arrangement if she is a freelance groom and you are a livery yard owner then it could be seen as tax evasion rather than just doing each other a favour, especially if you are getting different things from it so it is not like I will look after your horses on some days and you do mine on other days. £1500 a year's worth of livery is not a great deal of money and it may be that you both earn less than the taxable income are not using the arrangement as tax avoidance. If is deliberate tax avoidance then you are taking a risk but you will probably not be caught out unless someone who really dislikes you and knows what you are doing reports you.

You probably need to work out how many hours work you have for her on a normal month. I suggest work out what the hourly rate you paid the part time groom who was not a livery was minus 22% as your livery wont be paying tax. That will be her hourly rate for the "exchange" work. You then take what the normal livery price would be and add on the tax you will be saving if you pay tax on that income, then divide this by the exchange rate and that will give the number of hours she will need to work in exchange for her livery. This would be the fairest method.
 
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