Ground Conditions.......Are we being foolish

[marble]

over the last few weeks, we have read posts, both on here and on the BE forum re the "going".....I have acted as the organiser and also secretary of quite a few one and three day events and feel that competitors need to take a stand about hard, rutted and unacceptable going. You are paying a lot of money to compete and, if possible should be presented with going that is safe enough for your horse to gladly go forward on. I know one event organiser and land owner, a farmer, who also owned 4 star horses who every year got onto his tractor connected up to his power harrow and spent days, making sure the course was one, that he could feel proud of and also if necessary run his very valuable horses on. If he, a, farmer could do this, why can not every one? It is not fair to take hard earned money from competitors who have maybe one or two horses, for them to drive for hours spending money on diesel, etc, to arrive and find that they have a decision to make as to whether they run their precious horses or not, and if they decide not to run, they get sod all back. BE need to get their act together, rutted, hard, going is not a given, it can be put right, and should be. You as members of BE are the only people who can deal with this, you pay entry fees, you pay membership fees, the BE and also the unaffialiated events cannot exist without you. You do have the power to put it right....

 

[Sarah_Jane]

I can't agree more but on the positive it is something I do feel more and more organisers take note of. I for one vote with my feet and withdraw and won't go back to events with bad ground and will travel far further to those that take care of the ground. I think this is where the ERA course feedback forms should come into there own and riders really should make their voices heard.

For me potential ground conditions are the most important thing when entering.

 

[marble]

glad you agree with me, and maybe if we add up all those competitors who have withdrawn after dressage etc, we could get an idea of how much money has been spent...maybe, even this weekend alone, could be interesting. Competitors from Skipton and Gatcombe are you going to join in?

 

[Tannis]

We withdrew from Eden Valley after the dressage and glad we did - still feel it would have been wrong to continue.

We didn't withdraw from Hutton and regret it. Our horse skidded coming out of the water and slammed into/under the exit fence. It's set him back quite a lot. So, yes, wish we had withdrawn.

We didn't withdraw at Skipton and regret it. Our horse was going brilliantly but slipped on the downward slope to one of the fences - dropped from canter to trot to steady himself and was given 20 penalties for a stop. Questioned the decision - is a change of gait because of ground conditions the same as a stop? Told under the circumstances, for health and safety reasons there was a risk he would cat leap and therefore 20 penalties upheld - not for stop but because of potential risk for health and safety! Still not sure about that and at least one other horse treated the same. So again, yes, wish we'd withdrawn because it's now on horse's record as a stop and he didn't stop. In fact, we were so pleased because after slipping at Hutton that he had become more nimble and sensible and showed a super attitude adjusting his stride and more than that (given that it's his first season) he was listening to our daughter and showed the bravery to continue.

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

Ive had problems this yr, I wish I had withdrawn at solihull 1 as I only did the Dressage and SJ (on surface) but the ground was so hard in the dressage that my mare was lame with a bruised foot for 4 weeks.

So now Ive realised that maybe we are not cut out to event and will only do HT, or events that I know will make a effort (my mare injured her foot last yr so is more suspectable to bruising we think) however next yr we are going BS as the going is always good on a surface. I lost over £100 on entries for brigstock and the RC areas, and ruined my confidence as due to less than perfect ground at some events I didnt feel I could attack the course!

 

[soulfull]

While I don't compete BE I understand the problems

As I see it as long as people pay the money and don't get a refund if they retire, or withdraw, why should BE care??

Also it seems as a competitor you are almost grateful to be allowed to compete at these events due to balloting in recent years. while it is almost felt as a privilege to be able to do it nothing will change


I have looked at some of the courses where you can pay and school your horse round and decided I did not like the ground at all. This alone would put me off ever doing BE. As unaffiliated I can chose more carefully without having to register me and horse and not get value for money on membership

 

[herewego]

I have entered Sapey this coming Tuesday but am going to withdraw. Spoken to a equine physio and he said he is treating so many horse, due to the hard ground. I would love to compete but dont want to wreck my horse there will always be another day

 

[millitiger]

I am very careful about running on bad ground and don't enter events where I know it is rutted and uneven- however, you don't know if an event has cr*p ground or not unless you have been there at least once and that is 1 x entry fee wasted!

Obviously you can't veto all events with less than perfect ground as otherwise no-one would have run at all this season in this area.
I will run on harder ground so long as it isn't rutted and as long as the organiser has tried to make a difference.

There are a number of events very local to me which I will never enter again and I know many other people who feel the same so I think people are becoming more choosy and more aware of the ground conditions (or more precious depending on how you look at it )

 

[smiffyimp]

Thankfully we have not had to withdraw, but as I run my horse on a serious shoestring budget (i dont do the eventing so have fees to pay too) he doesnt run as frequently as some and we have been lucky, but I would have no hesitation pulling him if needs be. When Stratford Hills cancelled earlier this year I congratulated them - they took responsibility which obviously cost them an income, but saved many a withdrawl on ground that would have broken legs. More courses should take responsibility, treat the ground properly or cancel and save peoples hard earned money and time - they'll respect you for it in the long run.

 

[DarkHorseB]

See there is a real North / South and even East / West divide on this.
Here our ground is absolutely sodden we have had far too much rain! More than the annual average already so far this year and we are only 7 and a bit months through I talk about wishing it would stop raining and my southern friends say it will be good for the ground!! We farm and may be looking at having to lie the cattle in for the winter if it doesn't improve.

The West also seems to have had far more rain than the East. I have not had many events that have been ideal this year they have ranged from very soft to too firm. I would rather run on softer than hard rutted ground though any day.

If only the weather could be shared out equally....!

 

[Honey08]

It is difficult though isn't it. Generally, I've found BE events to be as good as they possibly can, but at the end of the day it is cross country. Nowadays we seem to want dressage arenas with fences on. Ruts and potholes etc are not good, obviously, but some mud/wet used to be normal in XC when I was younger, and I make sure that my horses are used to it (not hard living in the boggy pennines!). Last week I jump judged at a small ODE and lots of people muttered about cancelling it as it rained hard, causing surface water, but nothing looked in danger of falling - the only ones that slipped were those that really threw on the brakes a stride out. Underneath the puddles, the ground was pretty good after a few weeks of sun..

Most of the BE events that I've been to that were cancelled, it was the lorry parks and dressage arenas that caused the cancellation.

Some local events are held in conditions that I wouldn't go round in. I once jump judged at a local rc xc when a rider fell off and the horse ran into a bog, my husband waded in to get the horse, and there was wire in it.

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

I would have no problem with wet ground it's the rutty concrete that causes problems to my mare

 

[eventingdraft]

I agree with DHB that there definitely appears to be a big difference depending where you are in the country and maybe not just due to the weather. I posted on here earlier in the week after returning from the BRC champs at Aston le Walls as I was really shocked by the state of the ground - suffice to say the vast majority of OPs did not agree with my concerns! I can honestly say that I've never been to a BE event where the ground was as bad as that but all my BE competing has been in the north/north west. Perhaps hard is the norm further south?? My concern was that the organisers (BRC) didnt appear to have made any attempt to improve the ground - I think as riders this is all we can ask and if, after their efforts, the going still isnt to our satisfaction its up to us to withdraw. In my experience in the north, BE organisers have tried their best and I've never felt the need to complain (although I have WD on occasion). BRC on the other hand...

 

[KatB]

I'm very precious about ground, and there are several events I will not go to in times of "firm" ground, as I know it will be hard. One of these are events that people say have got good going, which always confuses me...athough I know I am not the only one to have WD in the past because of ground!

I don't mind soft going at all... but tbh I chose to SJ more than anything now, as I know the going will be good, and I haven't got the money to risk throwing away when I have to enter an event weeks in advance, only to WD due to hard going...

 

[marble]

It is difficult though isn't it. Generally, I've found BE events to be as good as they possibly can, but at the end of the day it is cross country. Nowadays we seem to want dressage arenas with fences on. Ruts and potholes etc are not good, obviously, but some mud/wet used to be normal in XC when I was younger, and I make sure that my horses are used to it (not hard living in the boggy pennines!). Last week I jump judged at a small ODE and lots of people muttered about cancelling it as it rained hard, causing surface water, but nothing looked in danger of falling - the only ones that slipped were those that really threw on the brakes a stride out. Underneath the puddles, the ground was pretty good after a few weeks of sun..

Most of the BE events that I've been to that were cancelled, it was the lorry parks and dressage arenas that caused the cancellation.

Some local events are held in conditions that I wouldn't go round in. I once jump judged at a local rc xc when a rider fell off and the horse ran into a bog, my husband waded in to get the horse, and there was wire in it.

I appreciate what you are saying, that some competitors can be very precious, but to be fair I do feel that this year, taking my very sensible niece as my example, that there is a lot less being done to prepare the ground. Possibly it is expense, but I go back to my original example of a farmer/horse owner/event organiser who always prepared his ground properly, he was of course owner of said land and having farmed it for many years knew every lump on it, but tractor and power harrow, followed by agrivator did the job and he would not have dreamed off not making sure take-off and landings were prepared.

Your entry fees are very big, and in the current climate it is just not fair, to travel (fuel costs) arrive, and be so disappointed in what you find. BE is a big organisation with a lot of technical staff, stewards are appointed to each event, and they should be prepared to stand over the ground conditions.

 

[herewego]

I think a lot of people are taking care because of the ground which shows up in the size of the sections at events. Sapey for example have only got high twentys in some sections, and this is such a popular venue they are usualy full ! It tickles me when people say there is plenty of grass cover, great for the first few horses may be, but saying that the ground is still hard underneath and after a few hundred horses have been round grass is pretty flat! Im entered for Sapey but think I will withdraw, pity!!

 

[flyingfeet]

I thought eventing was supposed to be a test of horse and rider across all sorts of terrain and going?

I think some sand / surface around the jumps is sensible and we used to do this on our own course 20 years ago. However I don't think you can expect the whole course to be watered for BE - from our point of view the cost of the metered water would make this prohibitive.

Should the organisers not be changing the times to suit the ground? I.e. slow the times down on harder and softer ground to help the horses.

I think we are possibly turning into a nation of surface riders (I am guilty in Sjing), where we prefer the perfect surface and anything else is not acceptable.

 

[Gamebird]

We didn't withdraw at Skipton and regret it. Our horse was going brilliantly but slipped on the downward slope to one of the fences - dropped from canter to trot to steady himself and was given 20 penalties for a stop. Questioned the decision - is a change of gait because of ground conditions the same as a stop? Told under the circumstances, for health and safety reasons there was a risk he would cat leap and therefore 20 penalties upheld - not for stop but because of potential risk for health and safety! Still not sure about that and at least one other horse treated the same. So again, yes, wish we'd withdrawn because it's now on horse's record as a stop and he didn't stop. In fact, we were so pleased because after slipping at Hutton that he had become more nimble and sensible and showed a super attitude adjusting his stride and more than that (given that it's his first season) he was listening to our daughter and showed the bravery to continue.

And this is where people will never agree. I ran on the Sunday lunchtime and barring parts of the SJing warm up I thought the ground was fantastic! There was a good cut in the ground, and takeoffs and landings were stoned. I was happy to kick on (just as well as the course needed positive riding!), well studded up and pleased with how it rode.

 

[marble]

Jen_cots, I am not saying that the ground should be perfect, and definitely not saying it should be watered all the way that would be much to expensive, and you have said that take-offs and landings should be stoned and or sanded. It is the ground between the fences that is left rock hard or rutted from previous events, this is what I feel most complaints are about. As a previous poster said long grass can hide a multiple of sins. Adjusting the time is a good idea, and this would allow those who so wished to take their time and trot if and when they felt like it. Allowing those who felt that conditions were acceptable to "kick-on".

 

[Zebedee]

I thought eventing was supposed to be a test of horse and rider across all sorts of terrain and going?

I think some sand / surface around the jumps is sensible and we used to do this on our own course 20 years ago. However I don't think you can expect the whole course to be watered for BE - from our point of view the cost of the metered water would make this prohibitive.

Should the organisers not be changing the times to suit the ground? I.e. slow the times down on harder and softer ground to help the horses.

I think we are possibly turning into a nation of surface riders (I am guilty in Sjing), where we prefer the perfect surface and anything else is not acceptable.

Totally agree with the opening sentence ! Hard / Wet going is a result of a natural phenomena - ie our glorious British weather ! Whilst ruts / potholes are not acceptable as they can be repaired if there has been little or no rain the ground will be hard. It is then up to the riders to decide what is best for them & there horse.
Gamebird also makes a very valid point in that what one rider will call 'shocking' others will find fantastic.
Does anyone remember the year that 'Brit' won Badminton? Almost 50% of the field withdrew due to the hard ground on the XC course. Most of those withdrawals were made by riders either from or based in the UK. The Aussies, Kiwis, & Americans carried on, & many of those stated when interviewed (there was a LOT of time for the TV presenters to fill in) that for them hard ground is what they are used to riding on & they treat it as the norm.
Our RC has had a really good summer series of evening dressage alternated each week with showjumping. The turnouts have been fantastic, but one of the main contributary factors to the high level of support these events have been receiving is that the warm up & arena are both on a surface , which also backs up Jen-Cots conclusion that we are fast becoming a nation of surface riders !!

 

[huntley]

Everyone should watch the footage on Burghley.tv from the 90's. There was no grass covering at all - just a bit of sand here and there - and that was in the long format days!
I was eventing at that level through the 80s and never had use of an arena - all our schooling was done in the field and horses adapted. What do you think is going to happen here when we have a serious drought? Are we going to have to go back to no competing in the summer - that's how it was - a Spring and Autumn schedule for eventing? I believe that more problems are caused by people using surfaces constantly for schooling and then competing them on grass.
Just a thought!

 

[hollibobs]

And this is where people will never agree. I ran on the Sunday lunchtime and barring parts of the SJing warm up I thought the ground was fantastic! There was a good cut in the ground, and takeoffs and landings were stoned. I was happy to kick on (just as well as the course needed positive riding!), well studded up and pleased with how it rode.

I'm in agreement with this. I competed at a similar time to Gamebird at Skipton and was more than happy with the ground. Yes it was wet in places in the showjumping warm up but so what!
I wont run on rutted ground but I havn't come across any like that this year, all of the events I've run at (bar Aske) have been soft going, that's the joy (or not) of living up north I suppose

 

[zxp]

I agree with many of the points raised on here. From all sides. I would hate for us to become a nation of surface riders - with our eventing roots in the hunting field, it would be a great shame to be too choosy. I can see the arguement both ways, but in our region (East) is has been an exceptionally dry year. I have not entered one or two events due to the ground, and have chosen to SJ on a surface over grass many weekends. This saddens me, but with young legs neither me no my owner are prepared to take chances. I will take a little greener horse next year than no horse at all.

I congratulate Stratford for cancelling, and for Isleham for watering their ground in the early part of the season (verrrry rare for them to need to with their lovely peat ground!) even for their U/A. The ground was great. However, I also think organisers have to take into account the time their events run - Stratford for an example is always hard. It is on a giant hill so drains, and the tops can become like granite - so why run in late June?

I think we all have to remember where we are though - the UK has very varied weather fronts and so things cannot be predicted. As long as organisers make an effort and are resaonable (e.g. Stratford), I think they should be congratulated.

ETA: rutty / pot holey ground is not acceptable in my book. There is no excuse as it is easily fixed. Like I said above - as long as there is an effort and the ground is as good as reasonably possible, I am happy!

 

[racingdemon]

I have to agree with the pp RE Surfaces.... not having one, i do almost all my schooling in a grass field, so as the ground gets harder/softer during the year, my horses learn to adjust to the conditions they are working on, so, IMO, this means that they are actually better prepared for changing ground conditions than horses that only ever school on a surface

isn't it lucinda green who is a big fan of working horses regularly on grass?

 

[LEC]

I am not overly fond of hard ground but depending on the type of horse will run if its not rutty. I have a big warmblood type now and will be a little more precious about the ground but he does not like the hard unlike my TBx who did not care. Its horses for courses though as a LW TB is always going to have less jarring on the ground than a bigger heavier type. Coming from a hunting background the soft does not bother me in the slightest as used to galloping through boggy bottomless clay. I also like to hope I am not riding horses at the top of their scope in the class I am doing so think they can cope with an extra 10cm in height that wet ground will sometimes make.

If you speak to any USA eventers they cannot get over our ground conditions here. They think we are totally spoilt.

Taken from Aussie Hamish Cargills blog http://www.hamishcargill.com/2011/08/debut-appearance.html
Only 20 minutes after my showjumping and an hour and a half after my dressage I was out galloping around the Earl’s paddocks. While Burto and I thought the going on course was good, there was a fair bit of talk among the locals about how hard it was. In a solemn ceremony Burto and I took a moment to promise ourselves that we would never forget our roots and what genuinely hard ground feels like.

 

[Hels_Bells]

Now I too agree that the ground at skipton on Sunday was lovely!! Lovely pasture and grass cover.

We ran at Draycott back in june though and the ground was terrifyingly hard. We ended up having 3 refusals at a fairly basic fence early on and I suspect that the hard ground was too much for my horse as it's so unlike him. Since then he's developed windgalls. I will never run him on ground that hard again. It had been aerated but it had just made it lumpy and uneven.

 

[Hels_Bells]

BTW the point about adjusting the timing is an excellent one. I've been meaning to do a sep post re timing as I actually think they're tightening times lately and it's becoming dangerous even on good ground... But that's another story....