Ground manners

[Bayracer]

I’ve just taken on a new horse, and he has absolutely no ground manners or idea of personal space. He constantly has to barge or walk into you when leading down the lane. When he’s ties up he just leans full weight on you.
Now my issue is he was previously owned by two blokes 6 foot ish who weren’t really bothered if he leans or a bit bargey. However I’m a lot smaller and weaker than them so having a few issues. He is 12 years old so in my eyes he should have been taught these from a young age already.
Has anyone got any helpful tips to help as I’m loosing my rag with him.

 

[Arzada]

Apart from losing your rag what else have you done to educate him? And has anything worked?

 

[Cowpony]

Get Kelly Marx's book Perfect Manners - works brilliantly.

 

[MuddyMonster]

How long have you had him?

I wouldn't be so sure it isn't related to anxiousness, particularly if he's not known you long. When my boy is nervous or isn't confident in his handler, he can become what others would consider 'rude' or 'bargy'. He has plenty of manners though.

My advice would be to get a trainer with a good grounding of equine behaviour & groundwork to work on this.

 

[Bayracer]

Apart from losing your rag what else have you done to educate him? And has anything worked?

Every time he tries to tank off we stop until he stand quietly and then we will carry on. I’ve found this works really well. But as for the leaning and personal space. I’ve found no matter how much pressure you apply yo him he doesn’t move away he just leans more.

 

[Bayracer]

How long have you had him?

I wouldn't be so sure it isn't related to anxiousness, particularly if he's not known you long. When my boy is nervous or isn't confident in his handler, he can become what others would consider 'rude' or 'bargy'. He has plenty of manners though.

My advice would be to get a trainer with a good grounding of equine behaviour & groundwork to work on this.

Only 3 weeks so it’s still settling in stage, but his old owner admit tha5 he always leaned on them

 

[be positive]

He can only lean on you if you allow him to, as long as you have control of the front end you can stop him pushing by staying just out of reach and putting the pressure on until he steps away, if you need to flick with the rope or even a whip then do so he will learn to move away when asked but you need to avoid pushing against him at this stage because he is bigger and will push back, once he knows to step back or sideways when asked you are nearly there, some are particularly slow to get the message so doing a little several times a day will help get the message across.
When walking to the field ask him to stop before he starts tanking, just as you would ridden do loads of transitions to halt, step back or sideways then walk on for 3 steps or so and repeat, every time you handle him think of it as a training session and if he is in ridden work do much the same ridden every now and again.

 

[Dave's Mam]

This may or may not be useful for you, but I used a heavy rope & rope halter. When pony went to get in my face, a waggle of the rope & "Back" & he would step back. If he stepped in again, a waggle & he stayed put. I have used this also with a waved hand & he will step back to that too. He also does not get his dinner until he has stepped back & away.

 

[Equi]

When i got my horse he was the same. But i think his came from pure anxiety..hed been moved about a bit. My first step was to get him to back off. But i was doing it from his side not in front of him, cause i want him beside me not away from me, so i would walk and suddenly stop...if he didnt stop with me i had the end of the rope in a circle in front of me..if he walked into it that was his fault. he soon learned that going before me meant he got the rope...i was not throwing it at him it was just there and if he walked into that was on him. Now he walks with me or very slightly behind me and i still "stop" now and then just to make him remember and he will stop and 90% of the time automatically take a step back cause he knows this "trick"

I backed all this up by saying "back" anytime he was too far forward and i was stopping. Now "back" is so much into him that i had to ask someone who was training their horse near me to stop saying "back" cause i was going backwards (ridden) when i did not want to XD

 

[Nudibranch]

Lots of good advice to follow. I have one who was babied as a foal and made 17.3....it took lots of consistent handling to teach him about personal space and even now with someone he doesn't know he will revert back to leaning and getting in your face. Not malicious, just overly friendly but still rude! Use a rope halter and walk with a schooling whip between you and him which you can use (lightly!) as reinforcement. Lots of moving his feet about, halts, changes of pace and direction.

 

[JillA]

Where are you? I know a very good (and kind!) means to ensure respect of space but it relies hugely on timing and is difficult to describe. If you are anywhere near I could come and show you

 

[Horsekaren]

My boy forgot his manners recently and was horrible, bargy, no regard for space and always wanting to take off when leading. I got a trainer out and we went back to basics. We have a dually which he responds really well too. For us the key is firm but fair ( i never really understood this until now to be honest). We never raise our voice or push, hit ect. We just use the dually for everything and accept nothing but perfection in every task.

To make him aware to not be bargy and pushy we would do a quick firm tug on the lead rope (no raised voices), this made him listen instantly - We never really have to do this anymore

To get him to respect space we walked back and forth with a lunge line, i raise my hand and stop, when he gets too close i black him up right away and keep repeating until he stands when my hand raises but doesn't come into my space. This is just normal now, he understands and is a great big sweetie. When we were doing it for the first time my trainer advised how important it is to wait for the licking and chewing, this shows they understand and are processing and happy at the start my boy was a bit stubborn to go back but the key is to not move your feet, ground yourself and make him move away (we wiggle the rope, say back (dont shout) and he does it right away. The first couple of times he didnt want to listen to the wiggle so i hit the lunge line with a whip, it didnt hurt him but the noise was something he couldn't ignore so he moved back. (only did that twice and he didnt need that anymore)

We basically have a zero tolerance method, if i am grooming him, changing rugs, picking feet ect he always has his head collar on, if he moves and i haven't asked he is corrected and told to go back to where he was. This is so much as one step when he hasn't been asked. He wasn't a fan at first so we had to move him back, then forward, then back/ forward ect until he stopped resisting. He now stands for hours happily licking and chewing as he knows what is expected and respects us for giving clear instructions essentially making his life easier as he knows what is expected.

But i cannot stress enough, firm but fair has nothing to do with shouting, hitting, slapping, pushing ect its all about being extremely clear and remember to install manners in every day to day task, if you are with your horse that is essentially ground work... it doesnt need to be in a school, its constant and the smallest error has to be corrected and WAIT for the licking and chewing to show they are processing.

Girls on the yard come and chat to me as im doing my tasks and everyone comments how their horse wouldn't ever stand nicely like that without hay and i think its such a shame but a big pat on the back for us and where we are now. A few months ago this horse had me in tears with his out of control manners! Kicking, biting, barging, sodding off, horrible faces but It can be done! and its sooooo rewarding when you get it right

Good luck!

 

[Denbob]

Ahh mine was babied as a foal and I have the same problem, especially at the moment as fields are so sodden and we're walking over lovely grass to get to horrid mud! He's 16.3hh and will just go. I've found a rope halter is best, and keeping his focus on me at all times.

We started in the school and i'd drop the lead rope Western style and walk around him, correcting if he steps or fidgets. Then starting to lead him round with a dressage whip in the inside hand to keep him at my shoulder, and elbow pointed towards his shoulder so if he drifts into me it's unpleasant without being aggressive. Circles, serpentines, dressage tests etc but constantly asking for transitions and pushing him away if he gets too close. This is also a good time to perhaps establish a verbal command for 'move away' that may help with the leaning. Lots of praise and releasing pressure instantly when he starts to move so he gets the idea. I use "Tsshh" and a hand to guide in the direction I want, it's not perfect but i've stopped getting trapped between a barrel chest and the stable door when rugging so it's a start!

Going to the field it's lots of transitions, we did (and continue to do) a boatload of groundwork as he needs his back strengthening so he's very responsive to voice commands. We're now at a stage where anything up to a canter transition can be done almost entirely vocally. He's always prepared for me to ask for something so doesn't have time to tank!

I'd agree with getting an instructor out, spend lots of time in the school on the ground making sure you're able to move his feet where you want them to strengthen your relationship and make sure he respects and listens to you. Firm, fair, and consistent! Good luck!

 

[Casey76]

We basically have a zero tolerance method, if i am grooming him, changing rugs, picking feet ect he always has his head collar on, if he moves and i haven't asked he is corrected and told to go back to where he was. This is so much as one step when he hasn't been asked. He wasn't a fan at first so we had to move him back, then forward, then back/ forward ect until he stopped resisting. He now stands for hours happily licking and chewing as he knows what is expected and respects us for giving clear instructions essentially making his life easier as he knows what is expected.

But i cannot stress enough, firm but fair has nothing to do with shouting, hitting, slapping, pushing ect its all about being extremely clear and remember to install manners in every day to day task, if you are with your horse that is essentially ground work... it doesnt need to be in a school, its constant and the smallest error has to be corrected and WAIT for the licking and chewing to show they are processing.

Girls on the yard come and chat to me as im doing my tasks and everyone comments how their horse wouldn't ever stand nicely like that without hay and i think its such a shame but a big pat on the back for us and where we are now. A few months ago this horse had me in tears with his out of control manners! Kicking, biting, barging, sodding off, horrible faces but It can be done! and its sooooo rewarding when you get it right

Good luck!

Licking and chewing are stress responses, not an acceptance

 

[Silver Connemara]

I have a horse a bit like this and I use the Intelligent horsemanship approach,
when I lead my horse I use a dually head collar. I find it works for me as I am tiny and my horse... isn’t. Hope this helps
Good luck!
http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk

 

[Bayracer]

Thank you everyone for your responses. There’s loads of helpful ideas and support. I’m definetly going to look at a dually aswell.
It’s so reassuring to hear from others who have been in this situation and how it’s worked out.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Licking and chewing are stress responses, not an acceptance

I am so glad you said that!
It meant I don't have to.

I once watched a mare of mine when her old owner came for a visit, a perfectly nice woman but she had been very nervous of the mare. The mare started licking and chewing as soon as she heard her voice, she never did it at any other time

 

[wkiwi]

Licking and chewing are stress responses, not an acceptance

Licking and chewing are technically regarded as displacement activities (in the same way that a cat washes itself). It is not necessarily comparable to distress, but can mean thinking time (while the animal works out what to do) or eustress (beneficial) instead.

 

[Nudibranch]

The aim is to have a horse that leads, ties up, etc normally without doing anything at all, ie it has accepted it. Licking and chewing for hours on end or at every request isn't great tbh.

 

[fburton]

Licking and chewing are technically regarded as displacement activities (in the same way that a cat washes itself). It is not necessarily comparable to distress, but can mean thinking time (while the animal works out what to do) or eustress (beneficial) instead.

That's an interesting suggestion. May I ask where you got it from?

 

[Horsekaren]

Licking and chewing are stress responses, not an acceptance

No, the licking and chewing is a release.
The lick / chew reflex is actually an indicator of a release of stress or tension. ... Licking and chewing consistently indicates that the horse has just changed from a state of higher anxiety to a state of lower anxiety.

For example if i just stood and kept saying back back back back to my horse and didn't wait for the release of stress indicator he doesn't have time to realize back isnt scary (ie if i move back she leaves me alone, stops saying back and i am chilled)

It was vital for our ground training, it was how we were able to see that he wasn't stressed or anxious

 

[Horsekaren]

The aim is to have a horse that leads, ties up, etc normally without doing anything at all, ie it has accepted it. Licking and chewing for hours on end or at every request isn't great tbh.

I don't request him to lick and chew and he doesnt do it for hours. He will stand nicely for hours now but every time we try something new for me it is so important to wait for that signal. I guess it might not be the same for all horses but it works for mine. I believe its more of a NH approach to things but i love it it works for him!

My first comment is confusing, he will stand for hours happy, he will lick and chew occasionally through out, only for a second or two, he doesn't stand there doing it constantly that to me would be a sign of stress. We have recently had a very stressed horse come and go on our yard and he would lick and chew for hours, not nicely but in a stressful vice type manner so i can see where you are coming from. I'm simply referring to a brief second of it

 

[ycbm]

If you are leading from the shoulder and the horse tries to lean on you or creep ahead, then I borrow what they do to each other in the same situation, butt the point of the shoulder with their front teeth closed. Only obviously, for us it's a lot easier to use an elbow .


There's no point trying to push most horses away. They are animals which learned to escape from a lion's claws by moving towards it, not away from it. So many will move even more towards you if you push them. They are known as 'into pressure' animals if you want to look it up.

 

[Blixen Vixen]

I second Kelly’s Marks book Perfect Manners. I’ve had great results using her techniques and found them very straightforward to apply.

 

[Nudibranch]

When I say request I mean what you are asking him to do. I don't mean you request he licks and chews.....
If your horse is truly accepting he should be past that point. Anyway.............

 

[wkiwi]

That's an interesting suggestion. May I ask where you got it from?

Displacement behaviour is well described in numerous behaviour textbooks. Probably the easiest most reliable sources to find on line is references to the internationally recognised Sue McDonnell (try google scholar, but there is a lot of articles written about her work quoting her on the internet.) Also other equine behavioural scientists state the same thing.
It is very important not to interpret it as anything in particular on its own. To use an example, if a horse had a temperature it might be raging septicaemia, or it might be that it just galloped aroudn the paddock and raised its temperature or it might be overrugging in the stable i.e. it needs to be taken with other symptoms. If a horse is limping it may be a stone bruise, bridle lameness, or a fracture i.e. it is a sign not a diagnosis.
However, there are a lot of people out there saying it is always a stress response or always something else etc. A behaviourist might go out to see horse A that is showing displacement behaviour (such as licking/chewing) and say that horse A is stressed but they will/should (if any good) be interpreting ALL the signs the horse is saying to come to that conclusion. On visiting horse B that is showing displacement behaviour they may come to a different conclusion.

 

[Horsekaren]

When I say request I mean what you are asking him to do. I don't mean you request he licks and chews.....
If your horse is truly accepting he should be past that point. Anyway.............

To get past a point you need to go through and experience the point, every point has a start, middle and end ey. I think we will leave that there!

 

[fburton]

Displacement behaviour is well described in numerous behaviour textbooks. Probably the easiest most reliable sources to find on line is references to the internationally recognised Sue McDonnell (try google scholar, but there is a lot of articles written about her work quoting her on the internet.) Also other equine behavioural scientists state the same thing.

I certainly know Sue McDonnell. She was a subscriber on the equine behaviour list where I originally (in 2001) posted my suggestion that licking and chewing, in the context of join-up, could be related to prior stress and adrenaline release. That may be where she got the idea from - although I wouldn't rule out it occurring to her independently as it's a fairly obvious physiological explanation. Googling for "sue mcdonnell licking and chewing" brings up several articles by her. At the top of the list are:

https://thehorse.com/129051/lickingchewinglearning/ and

https://thehorse.com/18825/the-science-behind-licking-and-chewing-in-horses/

From these articles, it appears that Sue prefers the autonomic nervous system explanation, though in the earlier article she writes:

"Certainly, it could also be consistent with the more complex behavioral concept of displacement behavior. This term refers to behavior occurring out of context (usually feeding behavior) in a thwarted goal or conflicted situation. The horse is motivated to escape, but is thwarted from escape and the energy is redirected to feeding motivation, which induces salivation, chewing, etc. The jaw and tongue movements relieve the energy and so attenuate the stress."

When you wrote "Licking and chewing are technically regarded as displacement activities", it made me wonder if someone had come out and said that's what they are in relation to join-up - hence my question. I like to keep up with these things.

It is very important not to interpret it as anything in particular on its own. To use an example, if a horse had a temperature it might be raging septicaemia, or it might be that it just galloped aroudn the paddock and raised its temperature or it might be overrugging in the stable i.e. it needs to be taken with other symptoms. If a horse is limping it may be a stone bruise, bridle lameness, or a fracture i.e. it is a sign not a diagnosis.

Good point, well made.

However, there are a lot of people out there saying it is always a stress response or always something else etc. A behaviourist might go out to see horse A that is showing displacement behaviour (such as licking/chewing) and say that horse A is stressed but they will/should (if any good) be interpreting ALL the signs the horse is saying to come to that conclusion. On visiting horse B that is showing displacement behaviour they may come to a different conclusion.

Agreed. I can think of several reasons why a horse might "lick and chew". The question is which one applies in join-up.

 

[CocoFabs]

My horse has started nipping when doing the girth up fine in every other way any ideas to stop him doing this? or why his doing it?

 

[fburton]

Agreed. I can think of several reasons why a horse might "lick and chew". The question is which one applies in join-up.

Got this muddled with the Monty Roberts / join-up thread - apologies!

Licking and chewing is often associated with prior stress or fright. However, I don't know about Karen's situation so can't say whether it applies there. It's not advisable to be dogmatic about the meanings of gestures without at least seeing them with your own eyes first!