Groundwork ideas? Liberty or otherwise

Kirstineridesagain

Kirstineridesagain

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Since my mare is in foal and hasn’t been ridden for about a year and a half, at least, she’s lost muscle and I’m not about to jump on her. But so thought some groundwork and in-hand walking would be good for bonding and exercise. She’s out 24/7 in a big, hilly field so she will get movement there as well.

But I’m not very good at groundwork. I don’t know where to start. To add to the mix we are strictly not allowed to use treats at the yard. So I can’t reward her with treats at all (my experience with horses who are used to treats is that they constantly look for treats, so I actually agree with this).

Any resources online or books people recommend? I’m tempted by Ride Like a Viking, any others? My mare has been trained on the ground, I found this from two years ago so she’ll probably be better than me at this!

 
Given the history, I would begin with conditioning/therapeutic groundwork; Jec Ballou’s books would be my recommended starting point.

For more of such work, you could look at Gillian Higgins’ pilates for horses programme or, if you’re more FB-minded, you might want to join the NoBackNoHorse or Slow Walk Work groups.

For liberty work, the Ben Atkinson Method looks interesting. (Disclaimer - I haven’t done it myself but I did attend a demo of his on BAM, and it came across well and easy to understand.) But I would prioritise conditioning/postural work over liberty at this stage. Liberty is training like any other training - any 'bond' that might develop through liberty will develop no matter what you do with the horse, as long as you listen to them.

ETA: You might also want to try horse agility - the best place to start you off there would be Vanessa Bee's book.

I would also strongly recommend you check out pantherflows on Instagram, partially because she has a lot of insightful commentary that you won’t find much of elsewhere in the horse world, but largely because the trainer in your linked post clearly follows pantherflows’ work and it might help you understand what your mare’s done before and why.
 
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As an aside...

Kirstineridesagain said:
To add to the mix we are strictly not allowed to use treats at the yard. So I can’t reward her with treats at all (my experience with horses who are used to treats is that they constantly look for treats, so I actually agree with this).
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God I dream of the day horse people learn how to use food reinforcement correctly so they don't discard an entire method of training because of their own ineptitude at using it.
 
Kirstineridesagain said:
Since my mare is in foal and hasn’t been ridden for about a year and a half, at least, she’s lost muscle and I’m not about to jump on her. But so thought some groundwork and in-hand walking would be good for bonding and exercise. She’s out 24/7 in a big, hilly field so she will get movement there as well.

But I’m not very good at groundwork. I don’t know where to start. To add to the mix we are strictly not allowed to use treats at the yard. So I can’t reward her with treats at all (my experience with horses who are used to treats is that they constantly look for treats, so I actually agree with this).

Any resources online or books people recommend? I’m tempted by Ride Like a Viking, any others? My mare has been trained on the ground, I found this from two years ago so she’ll probably be better than me at this!

Click to expand...
Big thumbs up for Jec Ballou that stangs suggested. I'm using Jec's book 'Equine Fitness' atm, with the tear out cards for each exercise at the back that you can laminate and have with you out on the arena.

I've used food treats as part of clicker training with two of my horses; one to encourage stretching, and with the other re-training walking onto a trailer. Its all about the timing of the click [which is a real skill], and the 'bridge', a split second afterwards - this is the positive reinforcement [R+] bit of carrot or whatever. My clue is a click or a whistle between my teeth, no cue no treat. They pick this up remarkably quickly and don't beg or mooch.
You can always teach them to wait for the reward while keeping out of your space, or offering it in a bucket.
 
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Nocturnal said:
I’m still stuck on the yard not ‘allowing’ you to give treats. Assume the horse is yours? Can’t imagine being told I can’t feed my own horse whatever I want.
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Me too! I understand no treats in the field as a rule, because no one wants horses getting into a scuffle or injuring a person. But when training my own horse or handling my horse in its own space, then I would be rather surprised to be told what I can and can't do with it.
 
I would start here https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/slow-walk-work-fb-group.844219/#post-15781223 ☺️

@stangs am I right in thinking Panther Flow is the new name for Intrinzen? Would definitely recommend that too, though I imagine establishing connection first through regular groundwork would be best first?

Annie Dillons course is amazing if you want a deep dive into classical or postural work, LS Horsemanship has a Patreon that would focus on connection and behaviour without ignoring posture.

I'm with Stangs that I would do these approaches first, but once connection and movement is good then horse agility and in hand Trec are actual activities you can do where you can get directly involved with others, compete etc.

This is the lady who runs the group discussed in the thread I linked to https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1E59WJzWKC/
 
sbloom said:
@stangs am I right in thinking Panther Flow is the new name for Intrinzen? Would definitely recommend that too, though I imagine establishing connection first through regular groundwork would be best first?
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Yes, she changed to Pantherflows from Intrinzen a few years back, but she's still got an Intrizen IG account as well that's more horse-focused.

Tbh I don't think most R- groundwork will develop any sort of 'connection' that you could transfer to Intrizen-type work. However, given that Intrizen's more of a mentality than a method with a "how to" guide, I agree that it can be useful for those unfamiliar with groundwork to get established with a proper R+ groundwork 'method' first that will talk you through target-training in particular.

Obviously this is purely academic, given that OP's not allowed to use R+ anyway, but the principles regarding affordances and movement training would be beneficial to anyone, even if they do use R-.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Me too! I understand no treats in the field as a rule, because no one wants horses getting into a scuffle or injuring a person. But when training my own horse or handling my horse in its own space, then I would be rather surprised to be told what I can and can't do with it.
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I might get away with using treats for training purposes. It’s no treats on the yard or in the field. There are a few very strict rules, which also means I can’t go and see my mare much once she’s in with the other in foal-mares, but it’s a great facility so she’s in very good hands. There are no viable alternatives when you have a pregnant mare where I live.
 
sbloom said:
I would start here https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/slow-walk-work-fb-group.844219/#post-15781223 ☺️

@stangs am I right in thinking Panther Flow is the new name for Intrinzen? Would definitely recommend that too, though I imagine establishing connection first through regular groundwork would be best first?

Annie Dillons course is amazing if you want a deep dive into classical or postural work, LS Horsemanship has a Patreon that would focus on connection and behaviour without ignoring posture.

I'm with Stangs that I would do these approaches first, but once connection and movement is good then horse agility and in hand Trec are actual activities you can do where you can get directly involved with others, compete etc.

This is the lady who runs the group discussed in the thread I linked to https://www.facebook.com/share/p/1E59WJzWKC/
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Thank you, this is very useful.

The long term goal is riding, and Trec is something I’m interested in.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Me too! I understand no treats in the field as a rule, because no one wants horses getting into a scuffle or injuring a person. But when training my own horse or handling my horse in its own space, then I would be rather surprised to be told what I can and can't do with it.
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As far as I understand it’s no treats at all, but if I’m training in a space on my own (and there are no cameras) then I can’t use them discreetly. I didn’t ask her specifically about treats for training purposes, so I could clear that up.
 
Nocturnal said:
I’m still stuck on the yard not ‘allowing’ you to give treats. Assume the horse is yours? Can’t imagine being told I can’t feed my own horse whatever I want.
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I agree that it’s micromanagement…but I don’t intend to fall out with the yard owner so I’ll be sticking to their rules.
 
Lesley Bayley, Groundwork Training for Your Horse. I seem to remember is an anthology of groundwork done by various different trainers.
Kirstineridesagain said:
As far as I understand it’s no treats at all
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I give no treats at all. Since I first met Mark Rashid who was a no treats trainer. My only riding injury was in my second yeasr of riding when I got bitten over the stable door giving a treat to an RS horse.
 
stangs said:
As an aside...



God I dream of the day horse people learn how to use food reinforcement correctly so they don't discard an entire method of training because of their own ineptitude at using it.
Click to expand...
I don’t know if you meant that I’m inept or other people are, but the share horse I ride is used to lots of treats and although I only give them at certain points (after mounting, putting back in the field for example) he’s forever trying to eat my jacket, he also bit my phone…so I am very pleased my new horse isn’t like that, of course I don’t know exactly if it’s because of the use (or lack of use) of treats. I don’t have a strong opinion on the topic, I’m open to different views on this.
 
Skib said:
Lesley Bayley, Groundwork Training for Your Horse. I seem to remember is an anthology of groundwork done by various different trainers.

I give no treats at all. Since I first met Mark Rashid who was a no treats trainer. My only riding injury was in my second yeasr of riding when I got bitten over the stable door giving a treat to an RS horse.
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I got bitten while feeding a treat while mounted once. A friend had the tip of her finger removed by a horse who thought she was giving her a treat. I think with horses like that the use of gloves is essential. Nice to hear you can train without treats. My horse is very affectionate, so giving her a rub or praise hopefully is sufficient. I’ll check out that book, thanks!
 
I don't give hand treats as a rule as it encourages youngsters especially into your space and can create bargy ponies. I would assume the rules have been put in place to keep staff and YO safe from rude ponies. Most yard rules only get put in place after an incident that was created by the issue the rule is addressing.

Regarding ground work with an in foal mare you are unfamiliar with I wouldn't bother. She's already got a job to do being a mum/growing a baby. If you want to create a relationship with her can you bring her in for a grooming session or take her for an in hand walk or hand graze. You have plenty of time to get her fit and using her body correctly once the foal is weaned.
 
Does no-one teach the horse, before giving regular treats, that if they are in your space and actively searching for one then they don't get it? In the beginning I will only treat a horse once their head/neck is neutral and they have moved their focus/energy to a lower energy state. I teach that long before I will use a treat as a reward for anything so the timing isn't so essential, plus the timing in that instance relates to being in an acceptable state to accept hand delivered food.
 
Nah, I have never seen the need to feed edible treats to my horses 🤷‍♀️. I reward with kind words and neck scratches. It’s not because I can’t be arsed to train my horses correctly, it’s because I’ve never felt the need to bribe them with food - barring carrot stretches.

Treats are to make the owner feel good. Nothing wrong with that, but horses cope fine without edible treats.

In 60 years of ownership I have never had a horse that was difficult to catch. Maybe if I had I might need to rethink my opinions on bribery.

Whilst I can very much see the reasoning behind ‘no treats’ on a yard, I don’t like the sound of the OP having restricted access to her own mare once she’s with the other in foal mares.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Nah, I have never seen the need to feed edible treats to my horses 🤷‍♀️. I reward with kind words and neck scratches. It’s not because I can’t be arsed to train my horses correctly, it’s because I’ve never felt the need to bribe them with food - barring carrot stretches.

Treats are to make the owner feel good. Nothing wrong with that, but horses cope fine without edible treats.

In 60 years of ownership I have never had a horse that was difficult to catch. Maybe if I had I might need to rethink my opinions on bribery.

Whilst I can very much see the reasoning behind ‘no treats’ on a yard, I don’t like the sound of the OP having restricted access to her own mare once she’s with the other in foal mares.
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It’s been a hard decision as I knew about this when I decided to put her there, but it’s the best place for her and the foal so until she’s weaned the foal that’s how it has to be.
 
dorsetladette said:
I don't give hand treats as a rule as it encourages youngsters especially into your space and can create bargy ponies. I would assume the rules have been put in place to keep staff and YO safe from rude ponies. Most yard rules only get put in place after an incident that was created by the issue the rule is addressing.

Regarding ground work with an in foal mare you are unfamiliar with I wouldn't bother. She's already got a job to do being a mum/growing a baby. If you want to create a relationship with her can you bring her in for a grooming session or take her for an in hand walk or hand graze. You have plenty of time to get her fit and using her body correctly once the foal is weaned.
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You might be right - a bit of in hand walking and grooming may be enough for now. I might try one or two exercises while out walking, I wasn’t planning on long training sessions.
 
Using treats to train isn't bribery, it's just a different way of reinforcing behaviour (and is very effective if done properly). I was once out hacking on a busy road with someone else and their horse would not halt at a junction, was spinning and dancing on the spot whilst the rider shouted and yanking on the mouth. My horse on the other hand was standing still as a statue when I asked for a verbal halt cue reinforced with food. It isn't the only modality of training I use, but it is a very good one. And I would describe my horse to naturally err on the side of fidgety and impatient, as well as greedy, but using R+ has been successful for us.

This is irrelevant to OP as they aren't allowed to feed treats on their yard, but calling R+ training bribery is unscientific and annoyingly dismissive, as it actually takes some skill to use well. These are the four quadrants of operant conditioning, for anyone who is interested.


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