Groundwork question

Birker2020

Birker2020

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I wonder if anyone has any advice for me in respect of leading my lovely horse Lari in the arena whilst carrying out ground work activities. I am using the theraband system whilst carrying out the exercises. This is basically a saddle cloth worn under either a roller or saddle and has therabands around the tummy and quarters – it’s intention to achieve lift and help to build core strength.

The exercises in hand are scattered poles and a line of raised poles and walking backwards between poles in a straight line which he is very good at now and stretches to the side, under chest and forwards. These also build core strength and are very good for proprioception. All this is on vets/physio request, so no ridden stuff at the moment.

Lari is food orientated so I find that rewarding him with a treat keeps him motivated and I also need to use them for stretching exercises. However, I’m finding it counter productive as he is constantly tilting his head towards my pocket looking for the next treat. If we have a line of raised poles I’m wanting him to look at where he’s walking and not in the direction of my pocket!

I also struggle to maintain his concentration as he is constantly chewing or sucking on the lunge rein – I currently lead him in a snaffle bridle with a lunge line from bit ring to bit ring over his head. I like to have him on a light contact, so it is never pulling him forwards, more guiding him gently with a slight loop in the rein. I think he's getting a bit bored of doing all this stuff which was my fear when I started.

He is such a goofy type of horse, kind of ‘doh!’ and considering he has achieved so much in his life in terms of his BS and BE records (he is 10 now) his actions are similar to a 3 year old and it’s going to take me a while to undo all these things he’s been allowed to get away with in the past. It's very frustrating. I thought about buying some unpleasant bitter tasting stuff you can rub onto things to prevent him doing that but it feels a bit mean. I want our sessions to be 20 mins of fun times and not for him to wonder why I am constantly berating him for sucking on a long line! It's as if its his comfort blanket and he needs it. Does anyone have any other suggestions as I spend more time retrieving the blasted thing from his mouth than I do actually walking forwards actively?

On a good note - last night we attempted our first labyrinth and he was a super star after about half a dozen attempts, he got the hang of it, I was so pleased with him. It was probably a bit of an ask as I asked him to do it with the theraband on and he found it quite difficult the first couple of attempts, and struggled to work out where to place his feet without knocking the poles, but in the end he got the idea, I was so proud of him, he knows when he has been good too, you can see it in his face.



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I would stop using treats. Some trainers use treats and some dont. I dont. Mark Rashid does not use treats. In my second year of riding I was bitten by a RS horse when giving a treat and I havent taken treats to any yard since.

I was taught to guide a horse through the S maze you show but never expected to teach a horse to do that on his own.

I was also taught to teach a horse to keep out of my space. I am permitted to approach the head of the horse but the horse is not allowed to move its nose to me. I make an exception for the current mare who likes to turn her head and touch me regularly on the arm as she eats her hay net.

I find long reining very difficult because it depends on distance and a whip for communication rather than on body language and position.
 
Gloi said:
Could you do these exercises in long reins which would stop him being able to either look at your pocket or chew the rein.
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Great suggestion and solution but after he took off in the school when I was long reining him last weekend when a horse in a field nearby started galloping about I'm a bit reluctant to do this especially if there are others in there riding around at the same time.
 
Skib said:
I would stop using treats. Some trainers use treats and some dont. I dont. Mark Rashid does not use treats. In my second year of riding I was bitten by a RS horse when giving a treat and I havent taken treats to any yard since.

I was taught to guide a horse through the S maze you show but never expected to teach a horse to do that on his own.
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So how to I continue to motivate him if I don't use treats?
The idea of using the labryrinth is that you ask the horse to move one leg at a time whilst keeping within the confines of the 'corridor'. You are breaking down the gait by asking the horse to balance and control each leg in isolation around the turns. This is difficult for a horse recovering from an injury and particularly hard when a horse is weak behind. I wouldn't have expected him to 'do it on his own', I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, I wasn't aware that that was the requirement. I made sure we didn't do it more than about six or seven times for his first time.

I expect it would be good though to stand outside and just let him take himself round, a bit like how you get them to load onto a trailer on the end of a lunge line whilst you are stood 15ft away!
 
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I used washing up liquid on a lead rope with a very mouthy gelding - worked for a while but didnt address the underlying behaviour, and in the rain it all got a bit frothy.
I am following Lari's journey with interest, trying to pick up tips, so thanks for sharing this.
I use bits of carrot thrown on the ground as a reward, as I agree feeding from the hand causes more distraction.
I've been doing some similar groundwork with a youngster, who yesterday seemed to find it all much more fun once I got on - it was like, Oh! we can play this game together ?
 
JackFrost said:
I am following Lari's journey with interest, trying to pick up tips, so thanks for sharing this.
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Thank you, no problem. I will always admit when I am struggling or if I've made a mistake or don't feel confident, there is nothing worse than feeling you have no one to ask or turn to and this forum is good for sharing suggestions and giving advice, especially when everyone is playing nicely.

I love the washing up liquid idea! Good luck with your youngster.
 
If using treats, its important that they are taught to not mug you for treats, also use a cue to acknowledge his behaviour is what you wanted that then can be associated with a treat. Both these things can be taught in a stable but must be taught on their own first. I would look up some beginner clicker training videos as its important to get it right. I have a very greedy Fell who has done some clicker and successfuly taught him not to mug me.

Rope biting/chewing can be signs of stress-ie he might not be sure what's expected of him or feels a bit overwhelmed. I dont mean by this that he's freaked out, just that he feels a little under pressure-so personally I would not punish him by putting soap on a lead rope but would maybe try and break down what I am asking a bit and give him plenty of time to think and process between asking him to do it again.
 
MotherOfChickens said:
If using treats, its important that they are taught to not mug you for treats, also use a cue to acknowledge his behaviour is what you wanted that then can be associated with a treat. Both these things can be taught in a stable but must be taught on their own first. I would look up some beginner clicker training videos as its important to get it right. I have a very greedy Fell who has done some clicker and successfuly taught him not to mug me.

Rope biting/chewing can be signs of stress-ie he might not be sure what's expected of him or feels a bit overwhelmed. I dont mean by this that he's freaked out, just that he feels a little under pressure-so personally I would not punish him by putting soap on a lead rope but would maybe try and break down what I am asking a bit and give him plenty of time to think and process between asking him to do it again.
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Thank you that all makes sense.

I'm trying to use the word 'wait' so he doesn't snatch and he's mastered that over several weeks and now can take treats calmly using his muzzle rather than his teeth. So he no longer nips quite as much as he did although every now and then he goes to forget, I use a stern voice and he tends to stop. But he still tries to mug so I need to work on this. He seems very intelligent but at the same time very immature, goofy and almost clumsy in his actions.

My own personal opinion was that he wasn't given enough time as a youngster to mature and develop and his babyish grabbing, sucking and chewing antics are his comfort blanket for when he feels he is pressured. He reacted particuarly badly one day when he started to kick his door so I retaliated by holding my finger to him and saying 'No' in a firm voice. Seconds later I entered his stable to retrieve his bucket and he shot to the back of his stable and I can only assume he thought I was going to follow up the 'No' with a physical altercation. He's obviously been hit somewhere along the line, not saying by the previous owner but someone has been rough on him. Last night we attempted to measure him with a measuring stick, he took huge exception to it even though we'd allowed him to touch and sniff it and extended it gradually. Luckily the bungee tie up broke so no harm done but totally unexpected from something his age. This also made me wonder if somewhere in his past he's been hit.
 
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In an ideal world, horses would be intrinsically motivated towards doing the work we ask them to do and therefore no treats would be necessary. Realistically, however, inspiring such motivation in a horse is going to be very difficult especially when you're rehabbing, and are limited in what you can do with them.

If you want to use R+, I think it would be good to associate the treats with a specific click sound (and to be consistent in when you click) - this acts a bridge to prevent any frustration in not having received a treat, and also the routine will mean he doesn't need to nudge your pockets as he knows when he's getting them. If you want to give less treats, then, it helps to use "voice rewards" as well so he knows he's on the right track. Something like, "good... good... good... *click*"

As for the rope chewing, I'd leave it for now as long as he's not chewing it into pieces. It can be a sign of stress, possibly boredom or a youthful mouthiness, but it won't harm him and it doesn't necessarily mean he's not focusing.
 
'Connection Training' on youtube have good advice on this. Basically if you use a clicker (or a tongue click) you can phase out the frequency of reward. So at first every click gets a treat. But then the treat only appears every 3, or 5, or 7 clicks, and in between the reward may be a wither scratch or a 'good boy'. They also advise that rather than giving a small high value treat (as you would for dog training), you give a handful of chaff, so the horse stands and chews for a minute and actually processes that they are getting the food.

You can also quite easily train 'turn head away and reward comes'. The dog training equivalent is a game called 'Its yer choice' which you can see on youtube.
 
DawnS said:
'Connection Training' on youtube have good advice on this. Basically if you use a clicker (or a tongue click) you can phase out the frequency of reward. So at first every click gets a treat. But then the treat only appears every 3, or 5, or 7 clicks, and in between the reward may be a wither scratch or a 'good boy'. They also advise that rather than giving a small high value treat (as you would for dog training), you give a handful of chaff, so the horse stands and chews for a minute and actually processes that they are getting the food.

You can also quite easily train 'turn head away and reward comes'. The dog training equivalent is a game called 'Its yer choice' which you can see on youtube.
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Thank you, I will watch this. The frequency of treats has me worried, I don't want him to have too much sugar so this would be ideal and its getting really expensive too!
 
DawnS said:
'Connection Training' on youtube have good advice on this. Basically if you use a clicker (or a tongue click) you can phase out the frequency of reward. So at first every click gets a treat. But then the treat only appears every 3, or 5, or 7 clicks, and in between the reward may be a wither scratch or a 'good boy'. They also advise that rather than giving a small high value treat (as you would for dog training), you give a handful of chaff, so the horse stands and chews for a minute and actually processes that they are getting the food.

You can also quite easily train 'turn head away and reward comes'. The dog training equivalent is a game called 'Its yer choice' which you can see on youtube.
Click to expand...

The turning away and the reward comes is super easy to train, in my experience. They catch on fast. You do get the occasional expression of "lookit me looking the other way, my head isn't facing toward you but I'm still looking at you, politely, of course, out of the corner of my eye waiting for that treat." ?
 
I have stopped all treats with Woody. He gets rewarded by allowing him a break, by voice praise and by scratches or strokes and by a release as soon as he does the movement I am asking for. Our relationship has improved massively doing this and he is now concentrating on me rather than being always half waiting for the next treat opportunity. He also grabs anything dangling in the vicinity of his mouth. He does not get told off for this any longer as it never made any difference. I see it as a sign of tension and ignore it as much as possible or even start stroking around his muzzle until he relaxes (I got the idea from a Warwick Schiller video).
 
CanteringCarrot said:
The turning away and the reward comes is super easy to train, in my experience. They catch on fast. You do get the occasional expression of "lookit me looking the other way, my head isn't facing toward you but I'm still looking at you, politely, of course, out of the corner of my eye waiting for that treat." ?
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Yeah caught the dog doing that last night when she was eyeing up my juicy steak ;)
 
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