Growling…

[SpottyTB]

Curious to get other people’s opinions.

I’ve come across a lady with a springer x lab, male entire 3yo. I don’t want to go into too much detail but basically the dog has never been away from her, he is with her 24/7, sleeps on her bed, with her at work, on sofa, in the car etc etc.

i witnessed the lady try and get the dog out of a car today. He didn’t want to get out of the car (apparently does this at home occasionally), so she stood waiting with the door open.. still nothing. She picked up his lead (without pulling) and he growled really loudly at her.

She admitted that he has always grumbled And usually only grows when he’s doenst want to do something / ie; getting in or out of the car, going in the house.

She seemed to think this was ok, as she’d read that a growl is good as he’s verbally communicating with her… and that it’s only ever a growl and when he doesn’t want to do something. I’m struggling a bit with this, owning several springers myself - none of which would ever growl and just do as I ask!

I have had experience working with a guarding spaniel who would growl if you asked him to do something he didn’t like - this later turned into pure rage and attacking. We came in after when they wanted to put him to sleep.

I’m concerned this is where this may go…? Seems to be that it’s all on his terms and if challenged he shuts down and growls. Another example is he didn’t want to go into a friends house and so put the breaks on the lead and in the end had to be dragged in.. I think he’s sensitive but also very dominant.

Am I mad in thinking this is the start of potentially a huge problem? Or am I being a bit sensitive due to the experience of the bitey spaniel?! Have passed on the contact details of a behaviourist and trainer but she said she didn’t think there was anything to work on…

 

[skinnydipper]

If he is not wanting to jump in and out of the car I would suggest a vet app to check he is not in pain.

A growl is good in that he is letting her know he is not happy, better that than going straight to a bite.

I do think she needs to listen to what the dog is telling her.

 

[SpottyTB]

If he is not wanting to jump in and out of the car I would suggest a vet app to check he is not in pain.

A growl is good in that he is letting her know he is not happy, better that than going straight to a bite.

Its not just the car - he doesn’t like travelling which is part of the problem but he will do it anytime he decides he doesn’t want to do something (ie; get off the sofa/ go in another room).

 

[skinnydipper]

Its not just the car - he doesn’t like travelling which is part of the problem but he will do it anytime he decides he doesn’t want to do something (ie; get off the sofa/ go in another room).

There is something wrong with the communication between them and the dog is clearly not happy. I think she would be wise to contact the behaviourist.

 

[Jenko109]

I have one who growls. A lot.

She growls if the other dogs come too close while she is sleeping.

She growls if I move too much while she's trying to sleep on the bed.

She growls when she has had enough of affection.

She growls when my partner tells her 'Mummy's home'

Sometimes she growls to herself when nobody is even in the same room as her if she can hear the other dogs having a play.

She is ten this year and from pretty much day dot, she has always been vocal with letting you know when she has had enough or needs some space etc.

I have never been worried about her growling. It is just who she is.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Agree, rule out a pain response before anything. You'd be surprised what connections a dog can make to pain. They don't understand what it is, where it comes from or what causes it, and can link it to wherever they are/what is happening when they feel the pain, even though it isn't connected. Up and down into car, on and off sofa, are typical areas where pain can occur.

While it's not ideal to have a dog that learns that everything he doesn't like stops when he growls, it's also not ideal to force a dog to endure something it hates with absolutely *no positive* at the other side.

Completely quashing growling works in the short term but increases the likelihood of getting bitten with no warning. Punishing a dog that's already worried/unhappy is like pouring petrol on the fire.

With a dog that growls around the sofa/elevation, it simply wouldn't be allowed on the sofa. Once pain is ruled out, it didn't want to go in the car, it would be getting all it's meals in the car.

Truly dominant dogs don't act like this. These matters would be utterly insignificant to them. This sounds like insecurity more than anything.

My dog used to growl at the microchip scanner. Which is a disqualification behaviour. He wasn't being dominant, he was wary and didn't know what it was/didn't like it. I didn't kill him for it, because that would mean that he was worried about an item and then even more worried because when it appeared he would get punished again.
I turned it into a clicker. Beep = food.

 

[Jenko109]

To give you an idea

 

[SpottyTB]

Agree, rule out a pain response before anything. You'd be surprised what connections a dog can make to pain. They don't understand what it is, where it comes from or what causes it, and can link it to wherever they are/what is happening when they feel the pain, even though it isn't connected. Up and down into car, on and off sofa, are typical areas where pain can occur.

While it's not ideal to have a dog that learns that everything he doesn't like stops when he growls, it's also not ideal to force a dog to endure something it hates with absolutely *no positive* at the other side.

Completely quashing growling works in the short term but increases the likelihood of getting bitten with no warning. Punishing a dog that's already worried/unhappy is like pouring petrol on the fire.

With a dog that growls around the sofa/elevation, it simply wouldn't be allowed on the sofa. Once pain is ruled out, it didn't want to go in the car, it would be getting all it's meals in the car.

Truly dominant dogs don't act like this. These matters would be utterly insignificant to them. This sounds like insecurity more than anything.

My dog used to growl at the microchip scanner. Which is a disqualification behaviour. He wasn't being dominant, he was wary and didn't know what it was/didn't like it. I didn't kill him for it, because that would mean that he was worried about an item and then even more worried because when it appeared he would get punished again.
I turned it into a clicker. Beep = food.

Thank you - that’s really interesting! I did suggest some clicker training today actually. But perhaps seeking a professionals help with the times he completely shuts down and freaks out. I like the idea of all meals being in the car too, making it a positive place.

I will mention to her about having a vet look at him… she’s moved vets because he refused to go into the first one (he had a few negative trips .. was made to be sick twice) so then point blank refused to go in so she switched vets and he’s better now so could take him to be checked!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Also....the worst thing to do is stand at the tailgate right in front of the dog, which is elevated, it can be perceived as very threatening behaviour, especially if there's eye contact. It's better to open the tailgate/door of the crate or whatever, stand to the side with a slip lead and let the dog put it's head through.
When I have a new dog or puppy they get a handful of kibble for getting in or out of the van, in and out of kennel, in and out of crate. My young female is four and this still happens every day so there's always a positive experience/never a negative to being 'put away' at the end of a training session/walk/going to bed/me going to work.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Thank you - that’s really interesting! I did suggest some clicker training today actually. But perhaps seeking a professionals help with the times he completely shuts down and freaks out. I like the idea of all meals being in the car too, making it a positive place.

I will mention to her about having a vet look at him… she’s moved vets because he refused to go into the first one (he had a few negative trips .. was made to be sick twice) so then point blank refused to go in so she switched vets and he’s better now so could take him to be checked!

This is another thing that people forget...the vet is stressful enough and often we do absolutely nothing to help them through it. At our last vet visit, which lasted all of five minutes, the dog got through a whole packet of roast chicken.

I used to take my older dog to the vet's reception, feed him a tonne of chicken and go home again. So it wasn't always 'go to the vet = massive trauma'.

 

[SpottyTB]

Also....the worst thing to do is stand at the tailgate right in front of the dog, which is elevated, it can be perceived as very threatening behaviour, especially if there's eye contact. It's better to open the tailgate/door of the crate or whatever, stand to the side with a slip lead and let the dog put it's head through.
When I have a new dog or puppy they get a handful of kibble for getting in or out of the van, in and out of kennel, in and out of crate. My young female is four and this still happens every day so there's always a positive experience/never a negative to being 'put away' at the end of a training session/walk/going to bed/me going to work.

From what I saw, he travels in the middle of her car, she openened the door and stands to the back of the vehicle, not looking at him. It’s all done in his time, ie; it took 15 mins to persuade him out this morning.

It's all foreign to me, I’ve been very fortunate in that my 6 spaniels are all very easy… in fact the biggest issue is persuading them they don’t have to over achieve all the time to please !

 

[SpottyTB]

This is another thing that people forget...the vet is stressful enough and often we do absolutely nothing to help them through it. At our last vet visit, which lasted all of five minutes, the dog got through a whole packet of roast chicken.

I used to take my older dog to the vet's reception, feed him a tonne of chicken and go home again. So it wasn't always 'go to the vet = massive trauma'.

Oh no I think he gets through a fair few sausages going by what she said earlier..

 

[skinnydipper]

One of the problems with the vets is the smell. They can smell the stress hormones of the dogs who have been in before them.

 

[CorvusCorax]

From what I saw, he travels in the middle of her car, she openened the door and stands to the back of the vehicle, not looking at him. It’s all done in his time, ie; it took 15 mins to persuade him out this morning.

It's all foreign to me, I’ve been very fortunate in that my 6 spaniels are all very easy… in fact the biggest issue is persuading them they don’t have to over achieve all the time to please !

Then he either has a pain/some other negative association which needs to be worked out.

 

[CorvusCorax]

One of the problems with the vets is the smell. They can smell the stress hormones of the dogs who have been in before them.

That's why I leave mine in the car until it's their turn. In, load of food, consultation, out, go back and pay.

 

[SpottyTB]

Then he either has a pain/some other negative association which needs to be worked out.

Hopefully she does get him checked out and also contacts the behaviourist! Thanks for the replies

 

[Clodagh]

One of the problems with the vets is the smell. They can smell the stress hormones of the dogs who have been in before them.

And there’s usually one howling post op out of sight. I think it must absolutely terrifying for them, like being asked to sit calmly in a torture chamber ‘in’ room.
I am finding it interesting reading the replies, lots to learn. Thanks to this forum mine get a treat for an awful lot of stuff now, whereas before I’d have battled it out. It has made life much easier!
Back to OP!

 

[CorvusCorax]

Hopefully she does get him checked out and also contacts the behaviourist! Thanks for the replies

When you've got as many puncture wounds as I have, it's best trying to learn to avoid getting any more

 

[scats]

I have 2 that growl. One who growls and grumbles constantly as a way of telling you what she likes and doesnt like- stroke her while shes asleep, kiss her, pick her up etc.

The other that if she growls, you sure as hell dont carry on doing what you were doing!

 

[I'm Dun]

To give you an idea

Lots of sight hounds do that weird grumbly moany thing, it is different to an outright growl. They seem to have such strong emotions and feelings about everything and like you to know about it. So similar intent to a growl, but less intense IYSWIM?!

 

[Highmileagecob]

I think your concerns are genuine. The dog appears to be putting himself in charge, and at this stage of his life, will find it difficult to be challenged. Neutering may help, but firm assertive training by his owner might not work. Eventually, he may start guarding her, even when she doesn't want guarding, and then the situation takes a different direction.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I simply cannot imagine allowing a dog to lie on my bed, growling at me! If that's not a recipe for disaster, I don't know what is.
I would certainly want the dog in OP checked by a vet, it sounds like a pain reaction which is being ignored (as perceived by the dog) by the owner and thus escalated.

 

[SpottyTB]

I think your concerns are genuine. The dog appears to be putting himself in charge, and at this stage of his life, will find it difficult to be challenged. Neutering may help, but firm assertive training by his owner might not work. Eventually, he may start guarding her, even when she doesn't want guarding, and then the situation takes a different direction.

This is exactly where I see this going, she’s also got children in the house. A very tricky situation and on reflection, I don’t think any form of assertive training will benefit him as he just shuts down. I think clicker training could work, but only if he’s comfortable enough to actually take the reward. A very tricky situation!

Shes confirmed this morning that she’s already had the dog checked out the first time he did it - as she was concerned he was in pain.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think your concerns are genuine. The dog appears to be putting himself in charge, and at this stage of his life, will find it difficult to be challenged. Neutering may help, but firm assertive training by his owner might not work. Eventually, he may start guarding her, even when she doesn't want guarding, and then the situation takes a different direction.

He won't get in and out of the car for her, but you think he's going to end up caring enough about her/what she has to offer, to start guarding her?

I'm feeling very sorry for this dog TBH.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

He won't get in and out of the car for her, but you think he's going to end up caring enough about her/what she has to offer, to start guarding her?

I'm feeling very sorry for this dog TBH.

If he doesn't start guarding her, which I agree with you about tbh, he is going to start guarding things from her. I feel sorry for the dog too, I think most posters do. The situation should never have been allowed to get to this state. I am not normally an advocate of 'behaviourists' but it certainly sounds as if this owner and dog need help.

 

[skinnydipper]

I don’t know what anyone thinks his balls have to do with it. Unless he hasn’t got them, that could be a problem.

 

[SpottyTB]

Will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the replies. Just makes me realise I’m very lucky with my easy going spanner’s.

 

[Clodagh]

Will be interesting to see what happens. Thanks for the replies. Just makes me realise I’m very lucky with my easy going spanner’s.

I always think that, I’m not sure what comes first, easy dogs or just knowing how to not let it get into this fix. I’d have no idea how to help this dog.
The only really difficult one we had was a Patterdale we were given, as an adult, who trusted no one and his first response was to bite if pressed. Growling would have helped! Luckily with time and trust he came ok, although he was never allowed near the children. If he approached you for a scratch it was fine, but you didn’t approach him. I loved him a lot, he was a damaged soul. He just had personal space issues.

 

[CorvusCorax]

If he's genuinely not in pain, if he is literally with his owner all day as per the OP, if the handling is inconsistent/unfair (do whatever you like....unless I drag you into a someone else's house) and he'd rather stop in the car than do the fun stuff that most dogs associate with going in/out of the car (going somewhere fun to do fun things or coming home to your safe place) then, with the best will in the world, I don't think the dog is the problem. Sounds like constant drudgery and maybe, as he sees it, the only good things in his life (sleeping on the bed/on the sofa....a bit of downtime alone in the car) he perceives as being taken away from him. Just an idea, but obviously I can only go with the OP's interpretation.

 

[I'm Dun]

I always think that, I’m not sure what comes first, easy dogs or just knowing how to not let it get into this fix.

I had a difficult dog, got lots of help from a beahviourist and learnt how to get him to not be a difficult dog. The next one was truly easy. Current little fire cracker would probably have been a complete d*ckhead if I hadn't known what to do from the start. Instead he's been a pain in my backside but gets constant compliments on how nice he is, how well behaved etc etc. So I reckon you have to have some idea what your doing, or where to go for help, then you can use that going forwards and all your dogs seem easy. I knew from about a month in with the difficult one that I had problems I couldn't cope with and needed help. And I guess that's where people go wrong, they just muddle on.