Grr people only after puppies for one thing!!

echodomino

echodomino

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 February 2007
Messages
3,019
Location
Leicestershire
Visit site
I've got a girl HWV puppy left after 2 homes pulled out last minute and mum had someone contact her yesterday interested in her. She wanted pics and to know if she could leave a deposit as she was in Afganistan until the end of the month. Not a problem as we're already running one on for another family.

However, mum emailed mentioning what she came with, food, folder, contract and 2x endorsement: progeny not to be registered and not for pedigree export. She said she agreed to the latter but couldn't to the former. So mum emailed back that it's there to protect the breed and most importantly the puppy but could be lifted by me the breeder when pup reaches two, meets the standard, is healthy and has a good hip score and that most reputable breeders put these on their puppies. To which this woman emails back that no she can't agree as it would be like buying a car and being told she could only do 50mph!!!!!


I'm so so cross!!! It smacks to me that she's only interested in a puppy to breed from and will do so regardless of health etc >:( When mum said she didn't want her I said good cos I don't want her to have her!!!

She's bootiful too, she's my pick of litter

Rant over, g&t and choccies for getting this far :p
 
Keep her and ******* the numpties! That would make me very cross too!! Erm...........pics please! :D
 
Sounds like the pup had a lucky escape, think you are probably right that she only wanted a bitch to breed from.:( Just goes to show that whilst endorsements aren't infallible they do weed out some of the bad homes.
 
Do you have a contract with a clause to say what requirements your owners have to meet to have the Endorsements lifted? as its a gundog breed something along the lines of relevant health tests undertaken, field or show qualification etc

I would happily buy a puppy with endorsements but I would expect the contract to specify under which conditions that they would be lifted relevant to both parties. Obviously if there is a health issue with your own bitch or the stud and the line or the puppy itself like for an example hernia or liver shunt, DCM, eye condition like entropian then that is fair enough and they should be sold on as pets with a clear provision of why the puppy is being sold on without breeding rights.

If your contract has no specification on endorsement lifting it could come back to bite you on the behind. Have you added in something to cover the pups for if it is sold on to a third party??

At the moment even if an endorsement is registered with the Kennel Club if your purchaser who signed the contract sells your puppy to a third party and then breeds your pup they could still register them with the Kennel Club. Very frustrating as a breeder if you have gone to the trouble of endorsing your pups so make sure you have a clause that covers your pups for transfer of ownership.
 
My contract states that the endorsement will only be lifted if the dog has good hip and elbow scores, good temperament and is a good example of the breed. I also have a clause in the contract saying the dog must not be sold on without the owner contacting me first. I do realise it is not foolproof and owners can ignore it, but it is imo better than selling without a contract.
 
oh yea my contract also states the owner agrees that the dog will not be sold or gifted to a third party without my written permission. The contracts make me feel my puppies have more secure futures than if they werent in place. We all know contracts arent totally infallible but they are much better than not having one!
 
horseloaner said:
Do you have a contract with a clause to say what requirements your owners have to meet to have the Endorsements lifted? as its a gundog breed something along the lines of relevant health tests undertaken, field or show qualification etc

I would happily buy a puppy with endorsements but I would expect the contract to specify under which conditions that they would be lifted relevant to both parties. Obviously if there is a health issue with your own bitch or the stud and the line or the puppy itself like for an example hernia or liver shunt, DCM, eye condition like entropian then that is fair enough and they should be sold on as pets with a clear provision of why the puppy is being sold on without breeding rights.

If your contract has no specification on endorsement lifting it could come back to bite you on the behind. Have you added in something to cover the pups for if it is sold on to a third party??

At the moment even if an endorsement is registered with the Kennel Club if your purchaser who signed the contract sells your puppy to a third party and then breeds your pup they could still register them with the Kennel Club. Very frustrating as a breeder if you have gone to the trouble of endorsing your pups so make sure you have a clause that covers your pups for transfer of ownership.
Click to expand...

yes it states the criteria pups have to meet before I will lift the endorsement. It was that the woman disagreed to. I know about the third party thing too, it's also part of my contract that if for what ever reason what ever age the dog is to come back to me or I'm to be asked to help find a suitable home. Also I'd never knowingly breed from a dog if it didn't meet the criteria it's self. I'd love to keep her but not really in a position to unless of course I can't find a suitable home for her. Mum's already keeping the small boy we thought we'd lose as he has a grade 4 heart murmur so can't really go. Will get some pics up when I get home, on my phone at mo it doesn't even do paragraphs let alone photographs lol
 
I have bought a puppy before with a breeding block. It didn't worry me, as I am not particularly interested in breeding dogs. I just prefer bitches.

I do question why it is OK for you to breed a litter for commercial gain, yet you do not want anyone else doing it ? You believe you are protecting your breed, by breeding a litter, but do not think anyone else will take the same care ?

A few years ago I wanted to buy a siamese cat. I had absolutely no intention of breeding from it - I just wanted a siamese cat. The breeder would not give me the pedigree papers until I provided vet proof the cat had been done. She was breeding several litters a year from her group of cats, yet she did not want anyone to do it. I bought my kitten elsewhere and of course he was neutered.
 
Your missing the point bigred, I apply an endorsement to stop people breeding from dogs that are not of sufficient quality and not tested or have poor scores. As long as they meet the critera and are happy to accept guidance from me then happy to remove endorsement though have done do very few times as most people have no interest in breeding.
 
I was thinking that BigRed. I assume breeding dogs attract a higher price than (substandard?) non-breeding then? How would you know if a dog was sold on in the future without telling you & how are these contracts legally enforcable?
 
BigRed said:
I have bought a puppy before with a breeding block. It didn't worry me, as I am not particularly interested in breeding dogs. I just prefer bitches.

I do question why it is OK for you to breed a litter for commercial gain, yet you do not want anyone else doing it ? You believe you are protecting your breed, by breeding a litter, but do not think anyone else will take the same care ?

A few years ago I wanted to buy a siamese cat. I had absolutely no intention of breeding from it - I just wanted a siamese cat. The breeder would not give me the pedigree papers until I provided vet proof the cat had been done. She was breeding several litters a year from her group of cats, yet she did not want anyone to do it. I bought my kitten elsewhere and of course he was neutered.
Click to expand...

I think that's totally out of order! I never said she couldn't be bred from, I said she had to meet the health and standard criteria before I'd lift it for her to be bred on from. Exactly the same thing I had to wait for before I could breed from my bitch. I never said that no one would not put the same care into having and raising a litter. Merely that it came across that all this lady wanted to do was breed on from a dog (not necessarily one of mine) if something that is standard with most reputable breeders is what stops her having a puppy.
 
NoseyPosey said:
How would you know if a dog was sold on in the future without telling you & how are these contracts legally enforcable?
Click to expand...

I was wondering that too. We see all the time on here people saying contracts and stipulations about what the new owner can and cant do with your ex horse after youve sold it are not worth the paper they are written on. Is it different for dogs?
 
I wasnt intending shooting anyone down btw just so everyone knows, I was asking a serious and simple question I was interested in an answer to.
 
Capriole said:
I was wondering that too. We see all the time on here people saying contracts and stipulations about what the new owner can and cant do with your ex horse after youve sold it are not worth the paper they are written on. Is it different for dogs?
Click to expand...

At the end of the day it can't stop the dog being bred on from what it stops is the offspring being registered which makes a difference when people want a registered pedigree dog. I put them in place to stop my puppies being bred from too young and to make sure they meet the health requirements i.e hipscores before hand. Same as I do myself. It's in place for dogs and bitches.
 
All puppies, male and female, are born with reproductive organs, hopefully.
There is a LOT more to responsible breeding than a dog having functional reproductive organs, which is why endorsements are put in place until it can be proved that the male or female is a suitable breeding animal in terms of temperament, health, structure etc. I don't see what is so hard to understand about that?
If a pup I bred (I don't breed, for a variety of reasons, number one being that I can objectively and subjectively say that none of our dogs since the late 1980s have been breedworthy) and sold turned out to be a train wreck to look at/bad character/terrible hips etc, of course I would not want it bred from a) for the sake of the breed and b) if it had my kennel name on it. We have no idea how an eight week puppy will turn out once mature.
 
Aah but the problem is, there is no enforceable health guidelines - or not that I know of. You can hope that people who breed dogs are responsible, and that they only breed from unrelated, healthy stock, but we all know this is not the case. Unless you tell this prospective buyer that your puppy will need a hip score that meets your specific criteria, she is completely in the dark as to what will meet your definition of passing health checks.

I don't think you have done a bad thing, I think you are being very responsible. I was airing a genuine question I have, that many commercial breeders think only they are qualified to breed dogs.
 
echodomino said:
it was the other post I was referring to, sorry. That's the problem with text it often reads how it wasn't intended
Click to expand...

I thought it probably was but I just clarified anyway :)

echodomino said:
I suppose no really unless it's gone through a solicitor, you take it in good faith that the buyer will follow it up having signed it.
Click to expand...

Ah, thanks, I see. Just something I was wondering about.
 
But that's what I said, the criteria pup needs to meet before lifting is in the contract so she'd have known what was needed before I would lift it. It's also explained when people enquire about pups, when they visit and when the come to collect
 
BigRed said:
Aah but the problem is, there is no enforceable health guidelines - or not that I know of.
Click to expand...

There are ways to incentivise responsible breeding/health testing, commonplace on the continent, the KC have been approached by our own breed spokespeople for decades about making some of these rules mandatory if one wants to breed or show under KC rules, but sadly it seems to boil down to worries about lost revenue.
These rules are not of course failsafes, but they would help, IMO.
 
I think legally if someone decided they wanted to breed from their bitch and register the pups, then you'd not have a foot to stand on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top