Grumpiness when tacking up - Advice

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Amo

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I have had my boy for coming up to 2 years now and he has always been a grumpy so and so when having his saddle on, over this time he has got worse but it happened so subtly/slowly I didn’t notice until a few months ago.

He always used to pull faces but he now pulls faces, bites and waves his front leg around in a strop. He was well within his rights to be grumpy when I first got him as he had a very badly fitted saddle, with the obligatory saddle rubs.

He has had a new fitted saddle, which has been checked every 6 months, tried different types of girth, he sees a physio once a month, has his teeth checked every 6 months and is nearly 3 weeks into treatment for stomach ulcers.

So why is he still horrible to tack up? Am I missing something that could be making him uncomfortable? Or could it just be mental/habit now?
 
Looks like you're covering most bases but he's still telling you something. Are your dentist, physio, saddler all well regarded? What do you feed? Do you turn out? What's your exercise regime?
 
I'd give the Ulecr treatment more time to work. Physio one a month is a lot, is there a known problem your physio is working on? Are you a suitable weight for him?
 
I presume your vet has been out to him. Have they investigated the possibility of kissing spines?
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Looks like you're covering most bases but he's still telling you something. Are your dentist, physio, saddler all well regarded? What do you feed? Do you turn out? What's your exercise regime?
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They are, I asked around before settling on any of them and they have all come with top recommendations and to be honest have been really good, they even discuss between themselves when needed.

I have recently changed his diet to make it more hoof and ulcer friendly so he is now on speedibeet, pony nuts, healthy tummy, micronised linseed, magnesium, haylage balancer. As well as his GastroGard at the moment. I have even dropped his glucosamine supplement as I have heard that is no good for ulcers, and to be honest wasn't doing much. He very rarely has carrots, mints etc anymore (much to his disgust)

He is turned out most of the day, from about 9:30 - 4pm at the moment but is only being exercised about 3 times a week at the moment due to lack of light. He is not allowed in the school as yet as we are on a physio plan so am heavily reliant on daylight so I can hack out. Once I am on him and out he is ok, he has always been a bucker but generally this is when spooked, over excited etc (or I make excuses for him)

Apparently he has been like this most of his life he is 18 now so starting to think whether it is just his character and I am looking for problems that just aren’t there, but at the same time I don’t want him to be in pain/discomfort and not do anything about it.
 
Mine is sensitive if it's a cold day. He's fine if I put the numnah on first, leave it to warm up, then put the saddle on. Might be worth trying this with yours?
 
The vet is out to us quite often as we have had different lameness issues for over 12 months, at the moment we are treating rear end lamness due to being off work he has/had muscle wastage on his rear end (mainly one side) so the physio is out treating that. The vet and the physio regularly discuss progress and both seem really happy (to be honest I have seen a massive improvement but like all physio it can be slow going as don't want to rush it)

I suppose in the grand scheme of things 3 weeks is not enough time to say whether the ulcers have started healing, he is booked back in for a re-scope next week so will see how it looks then. I had hopes for a change within a few days, looked on here and got my hopes up :-)

As for weight he should have no problem with me, he is a pretty heavy set TB, 16.3/17h and I am 5'9" at 10 1/2 st so should be ok.

Not discussed kissing spines to be honest, will see what happens with the scope next week and then start following up different ideas. Need to completely rule out one thing before we move on.
 
Pigeon said:
Mine is sensitive if it's a cold day. He's fine if I put the numnah on first, leave it to warm up, then put the saddle on. Might be worth trying this with yours?
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I will try this with him, I am keen to try little tricks to see if it is mental and whether I can wean him off it so any idea greatly received.

Don't get me wrong if it is physical then he will be treated.
 
Bear in mind most ulcer pain on tacking up is hind gut related which the ulcer treatment won't help. Once the stomach ulcers are treated I would suggest treatingthe hind gut
 
Mine started waving his front leg around when tacking out. In his case he was objecting to a cold girth (seriously) and when I stuck on a sheepskin cover he didn't do it.
 
ghostie said:
Bear in mind most ulcer pain on tacking up is hind gut related which the ulcer treatment won't help. Once the stomach ulcers are treated I would suggest treatingthe hind gut
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How do you treat hind gut ulcers? I will discuss with vet next week as well but worth getting my thoughts together and get planning :-)
 
A friend used green clay (?) for hind gut ulcers - seemed to feel it was successful? Silly question, and it sounds critical, but I don't mean it to be :D you say his turn out is from half 9 to 4. What's the rest of his routine - adlib hay? ie does he have hay left in the morning? Is he quite happy standing in, or does that create a bit of stress?
I think my other thought would be - you said he's being treated for hind limb "lameness" so is it possible he actually finds work pretty hard, and therefore not keen when tack appears? Is it possible to do his workload in hand (assuming physio has left you with poles / exercises - do they have to be ridden, or could you spend sometime just tacking him up without getting on? See if that makes a difference? As a rule, I don't start riding them until tacking up is all positive :) a friend uses clicker training, but I'm cautious of that, as I think it's possible to train sufficiently to actually overrule a pain response

Sorry, that's probably no help at all!
 
We were on GG but once I put my boy on RiteTrac within 48 hours he was back to normal. RiteTrac treats stomach and hindgut ulcers. I alway give some readigrass or chaff before and after riding so he always has something in his gut.

It also takes a little time to them thinking it all still hurts...
 
"The vet is out to us quite often as we have had different lameness issues for over 12 months, at the moment we are treating rear end lamness due to being off work he has/had muscle wastage on his rear end (mainly one side) so the physio is out treating that".

So what does the vet say is the reason for the unequal muscle wastage. Sounds as if this is more of a reason to dislike being tacked up than anything else.
 
After many many years dealing with horses, I now realise that horses NEVER do something like you describe out of habit. It is always related to genuine pain. Think about it. It takes energy to fuss and bite and wave legs around etc. Horses do not do it for no reason. True, if the pain is quite mild they can be trained out of it so that they tolorate the discomfort, and people then assume it is behavioural. But it isn't. They learn that they are not being listened to, and so long as the discomfort is relatively mild, they put up and shut up.

I echo the suggestion that you get your horse checked out for kissing spines. However, ulcers CAN take quite a long time to get right. One horse here needs six weeks ulcer treatment before she starts to improve, so it is still early days regarding the ulcers.
 
my horse was pretty awkward to tack up when i got him.
Im afraid to say i resorted to pure bribery for the bridle... a mint in the hand with the bit did the trick and he puts his head down for the bridle now.
The saddle issue was becoming a real trauma. We did the usual back and saddle checks...and had him fitted with a new saddle.
After this i really really exagerated the tacking up issue. I would take the numnah over to him for his inspection and then place it very gently on his back. I did the same with the saddle. I bought a wintec girth and buckled both sides very loosely.. then ran my hands underneath the girth , he 'acknowledged. this by turning his head and watching what was going on.I took ages to do the girth up all the while checking he had no nips under the girth.
He is a doddle to tack up now , and with no one to turn to for advice at the time it was the only thing i could come up with! It took ages to tack up originally but it has paid off no end in the long run!
 
Thanks everyone for the replies, nothing came across critical, I am thankful for any response that helps me sort him out, if he is in pain I want him sorted.

He is turned out during the day and has ad lib haylage provided in the field (pretty much no grass at the moment) When he is stabled he again has ad lib haylage, very rare has he eaten it all by the morning. He doesn't mind being stabled at all, in fact if its horrible outside you have to drag him out so no stressing.

He has his feed split into 3 feeds per day to spread it out as much as possible, although his new diet only started when diagnosed with ulcers and before he was on molassed sugar beet and mollased mix so pretty high sugar intake, not sure how long it takes the body to adapt to new diet, assumed it would have by now.

Once he is tacked up and we are out he enjoys being ridden so I have never thought about that too much, if anything I have to hold him back.

He has been on a very slow return to work (involving lots of pole work) to make sure we don't make him uncomfortable and the physio is happy with his progress, it has taken 4 months and we are only just starting to introduce canter back in, which he is very happy about.

The muscle wastage they believe is purely down to lack of exercise, he was off for a long time. Lameness issues started with a simple but deep cut on his fetlock, due to the area it kept opening up so we had to keep it clean and avoid working him until it healed. He then went lame on the opposite leg as the hoof wall had separated from the lamini, he had to have some of the hoof cut away to help heal. Vet believes this was due to him transferring weight off the other leg with the cut.

From an external point of view we can't see any reason for his continued grumpiness hence we started looking internally and ulcer diagnosis.

Think the next best stage is to see how the scope looks next week and if all looking better but no behaviour improvement look at KS.

I think I may also look into treating for hindgut ulcers as well as a precaution, it seems it won't do any harm. Will also look at tacking him up and not riding to see if that helps improve things.

Wow, that was long sorry :D
 
Sounds like my mare, have you had him blood tested? Mine showed up raised liver things, raised inflammatory things and raised urea things (can't remember the techinical vet speak) Could be liver or kidney, does he seem tense around his lumber area? Stiff after being stabled? If not blood tested I would do it, it's not a lot to pay for peace of mind.
If you suspect ulcers this link is good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
 
Amo said:
The vet is out to us quite often as we have had different lameness issues for over 12 months, at the moment we are treating rear end lamness due to being off work he has/had muscle wastage on his rear end (mainly one side) so the physio is out treating that.
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I would hazard a guess that the lameness and grumpiness could well be linked.
 
muscle wastage may be due to long term rest but unequal wastage to each side of the horse's rump is a sure sign of underlying problems, nothing to do with being off work.
 
Wagtail said:
After many many years dealing with horses, I now realise that horses NEVER do something like you describe out of habit. It is always related to genuine pain. Think about it. It takes energy to fuss and bite and wave legs around etc. Horses do not do it for no reason. True, if the pain is quite mild they can be trained out of it so that they tolorate the discomfort, and people then assume it is behavioural. But it isn't. They learn that they are not being listened to, and so long as the discomfort is relatively mild, they put up and shut up.

I echo the suggestion that you get your horse checked out for kissing spines. However, ulcers CAN take quite a long time to get right. One horse here needs six weeks ulcer treatment before she starts to improve, so it is still early days regarding the ulcers.
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^^ This^^
 
I agree that it could be ulcers but equally the possibility of him expecting pain due to having had previous saddle issues might be the problem. So if nothing obvious shows up, then it may be behavioural.

My boy was like this, moving away from the saddle and being "girthy" etc. nothing untoward was found, other than the fact he was previously ridden in an ill fitting saddle.

I used clicker training to help him tack up, and it really does work well. So that might be worth a try (or something similar) if you don't find anything medically wrong.
 
Aloe Vera juice is really really good for ulcers and all sorts of problems inside, we used to give it to the ex racers at work and the difference was amazing
 
Wow, thanks so much guys.

ridefast said:
Sounds like my mare, have you had him blood tested? Mine showed up raised liver things, raised inflammatory things and raised urea things (can't remember the techinical vet speak) Could be liver or kidney, does he seem tense around his lumber area? Stiff after being stabled? If not blood tested I would do it, it's not a lot to pay for peace of mind.
If you suspect ulcers this link is good http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr05hMmLCY4
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I hadn't even thought of this and vet not mentioned it, although he is probably trying to rule one things out at a time. Will mention it next week. He will be horsepital so no hassle to have bloods taken while there.

sam72431 said:
Aloe Vera juice is really really good for ulcers and all sorts of problems inside, we used to give it to the ex racers at work and the difference was amazing
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Where do you get this from?

Pearlsasinger said:
As well as all the other suggestions (I swear by AV juice) does his bridle, especially his browband fit or is it tight round his ears?
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Yeah bridle all seems fine, in fairness he used to be a so and so with his bridle as well and you had to chase him around the stable, since I got him and bought him a new one he accepts the bridle no issue.

Littlelegs said:
Have you done a bute trial?
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Yes we have and to be honest it made no diffference. I am loathe to do this at the moment due to the ulcers but is always worth a shot in the future if needed, with added precautions this time.

Serenity087 said:
We had a grumpy tacker uper who had been beaten by a previous owner.

Just used to have a little chat and a good stroke whenever we tacked him up.

The lady who bought him equipped him with sheepskin everything to make sure he wasn't in pain! But he still stayed grumpy :(
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He has a sheepskin cover on his girth as this was one of the first things I tried, not sure if it helps but he still wears it as it does no harm. Unless he catches sight of it and spooks lol

Worth pointing out as well that he does have slight artiruts in his right hock which is why the vet believes when he lost muscle due to being off he lost more on one side. He has been treated for this and seems to be better (in the hock area at least)

Trust me, anything going G seems to have had, he is the classic sick note. I think I am catching up on lots of issues he has had for years but not been dealt with.

I will start a seperate thread to ask for info on hind gut ulcers and how to best treat as that seems something simple that I can start straight away.

Thanks so much everyone :D
 
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