Grumpy - why is he doing this?

[PolarSkye]

Kal has developed a new/strange behaviour and I'm a bit puzzled and would like your advice/thoughts.

While the weather is so hot, he is out at night (goes out at about 5.30/6.00 p.m.) and comes in at about 10.00 a.m. to work and then spend the day chilling in his stable away from the flies and out of the sun. He is in a herd of three - an elderly Connemara cross pony (who is definitely bottom of the herd) and a 10-year-old, Parelli-trained Polish warmblood (who is definitely the boss) . . . Kal is the 2nd in command. There is some grass in the field - although, like a lot of you, we are desperate for rain - and Kal and his fieldmates are the only three horses on the yard out at night.

Kal comes to call - or even just when he sees me (I turn another horse out in the morning before catching him in) - so he is happy to see me and doesn't pull any faces when I put his headcollar on, but about halfway down the track to the yard his ears go flat back and he makes very horrid faces. He has been giving me playful-type nips on my bottom . . . but this morning he actually lunged at me with his teeth out!!! He was very unhappy. As soon as I turned round to tell him off he backed off - he "knew" I was unhappy with him . . . I made him back up about 6 or 7 steps and then we continued . . . only then his ears were forward and the nasty faces had gone/he was relaxed and happy.

It's so odd . . . and very out of character . Why do you think he is doing this . . . and how would you handle?

P

 

[Hawks27]

is their nice grass between his field and the stable? my lad is normally lovely but hes getting a grump between field and stable as thiers lush grass and his field is looking more like hay at the moment so he is getting very stroppy if I don't let him stop and eat and he will nip at me if he really wants it.

 

[PolarSkye]

is their nice grass between his field and the stable? my lad is normally lovely but hes getting a grump between field and stable as thiers lush grass and his field is looking more like hay at the moment so he is getting very stroppy if I don't let him stop and eat and he will nip at me if he really wants it.

Not really, no . . . all our fields are pretty crispy at the moment.

It could just be that he's hungry . . .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Come on you lot . . . I don't ask for advice that often and I'm really stumped. It's not like him to be grumpy . . . he isn't grumpy when I catch him, and he isn't a biter . . .

P

 

[Buds_mum]

My horse is a terrible grump when he is hungry Maybe he just thinks you need to toddle on faster

Saying that you dealt with it as I do, its still ruddy rude even if they are feeling grumpy!

Other than that no idea!!

 

[Mike007]

Hard to say,not having seen it. Sounds like an attempt to assert dominance over you. Those "playfull nips" that you thought amusing could have been the first steps in this direction. Once you shouted and made him back up ,he was happy because he knew exactly where he stood . You might wish to consider that you need to be more assertive with him on the ground.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Have to say that is a little weird. But seems you have told him how you feel about it and that it won't be tolerated. Do you think maybe it's the heat related schedule?

Terri

 

[Vanner]

Hard to say,not having seen it. Sounds like an attempt to assert dominance over you. Those "playfull nips" that you thought amusing could have been the first steps in this direction. Once you shouted and made him back up ,he was happy because he knew exactly where he stood . You might wish to consider that you need to be more assertive with him on the ground.

I agree with Mike007, my old fella used to try his luck with me when he was a youngster, and I had to be the dominate one.

Stand tall, make direct eye contact and make him know that you are top dog.

 

[PolarSkye]

My horse is a terrible grump when he is hungry Maybe he just thinks you need to toddle on faster

Saying that you dealt with it as I do, its still ruddy rude even if they are feeling grumpy!

Other than that no idea!!

Ha ha . . . toddling describes it beautifully . . . however, he is walking politely behind me rather than rushing to get in, so I don't think that's it.

And, yes, it is ruddy rude .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Hard to say,not having seen it. Sounds like an attempt to assert dominance over you. Those "playfull nips" that you thought amusing could have been the first steps in this direction. Once you shouted and made him back up ,he was happy because he knew exactly where he stood . You might wish to consider that you need to be more assertive with him on the ground.

Mike - I am very assertive with him on the ground . . . I have had to be because when we bought him, he was a cheeky so-and-so. Every one of those playful nips earned him a reprimand . . . similar to what I did this morning. I insist that he leads nicely - no dragging or shoving. I also insist that he moves over when I say, backs up when I say and stands still to be groomed/tacked up, etc. He didn't do ANY of that when I bought him. We don't even feed him many treats by hand (only at competitions) so that we don't encourage him to be nippy or demanding.

I am truly stumped on this one . . .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Have to say that is a little weird. But seems you have told him how you feel about it and that it won't be tolerated. Do you think maybe it's the heat related schedule?

Terri

Glad I'm not the only one who thinks it's weird. It's possible that the change in schedule is the problem . . . he's coming in when almost everyone else is out (there are two others in during the day and close to his stable on the yard and he's happy enough once he's in).

There is a new horse (Breeze) in one of the fields we pass and Kal and Breeze are mutually fascinated by each other . . . if Breeze is by the fence, Kal will drag me over to him to say hello . . . could it be possible that he's cross because I'm taking him past Breeze?

Other than that, I'm at a loss.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I agree with Mike007, my old fella used to try his luck with me when he was a youngster, and I had to be the dominate one.

Stand tall, make direct eye contact and make him know that you are top dog.

Thanks Vanner - see my response to Mike007 . . . I am very assertive with him and he is usually very well mannered - which is why this is so puzzling.

P

 

[WelshD]

Is it just simply that he doesnt want to leave the others or leave the field? Perhaps he sees the day in his stable as a bad thing rather than shade and relief from the flies?

 

[PolarSkye]

Is it just simply that he doesnt want to leave the others or leave the field? Perhaps he sees the day in his stable as a bad thing rather than shade and relief from the flies?

Leaving the others could certainly be a factor . . . he is very bonded with the Parelli horse, but surely he would be reluctant to leave the field at all - and he isn't . . . he comes when he sees me, practically shoves his nose in his headcollar and has his ears forward until we get away from the field/down the track. Also, if he was unhappy in the stable, surely he'd let me know? When stressed/unhappy he is a box walker . . . he doesn't box walk during the day - he munches his hay, lays down and has a snooze and is generally very relaxed.

So puzzled.

P

 

[Mike007]

He isnt playing ,and he isnt attacking you(believe me you would soon know).Therefore he is disciplining you. He considers himself above you in the herd ,regardless of how assertive you think you are being.Even the idea that he simply doesnt want to come in would not be a sufficient trigger if he considered you the boss.

 

[Brightbay]

Sounds like he's hungry.

This works two ways - first, it affects blood sugar - levels don't stay consistent. Everybody gets a bit hungry when their blood sugar/insulin levels go up and down - especially as he presumably knows that he's coming in where there will be more food, so anticipation.

Second, it's possible the excess stomach acid is a bit burny and sloshing around onto the sensitive part of his stomach - a nip can redirected aggression due to pain.

I'm sorry, I don't buy the "general dominance" thing at all. Horses are not "dominant", they exert dominance over resources they feel are scarce. So a horse will gurn at other horses passing their stable, if they have been stuck inside a lot and feel space is a scarce resource. They will try to prevent a companion being taken out of their field, if they have been left alone before. They will chase other horses off their feed, because we "make" high value food a scarce resource by putting it in individual buckets. They will chase other horses out of a shelter if it's hot and the shelter is small. Dominance isn't an overall characteristic, so a horse can be dominant over one thing but not others. And it can vary - a horse can exert dominance over hay in January, but not be in the least bit interested in it in July.

What you describe is a behaviour change, where it's not something you've observed before. When a behaviour changes, there's a reason. Look at the most obvious things in terms of (a) where the horse is when it happens (does it happen when leading out, with a full stomach?), (b) when does it not happen, and (c) whether you can change it by e.g. offering a bowl of damp chaff at the field gate before leading up. If this works, you have your answer (and even better, you have your answer without having to get on your horse's case for vague reasons like "he's trying to dominate you when he never has before" )

 

[Mike007]

So what you are saying is that this horse could get away with behaving like that to the Polish warmblood field boss.Depending on circumstances. In my experience ,never!. He would wind ip sporting a set of designer teeth marks .There is ALWAYS a pecking order even if occasionaly some lee way is tolerated.

 

[Abbeygale]

On reading Mikes responses I have to say I agree with him. I have a 3yo arab and she does very similar to the OPs horse in the way to the field - not often on the way in from the field. I don't buy that she's hungry as she has usually had a feed if some sort prior to turn out.

But she is incredibly bossy for a baby - and although if its just me and her I am definitely the boss. But when I'm leading her and the other two its like she's trying to put me back in my place in the hers! I do think she is pushing her luck to a certain extent to see what she can get away with - especially when she is not my sole attention when leading 3!

I don't have a solution as yet OP - but I do just keep an eye and growl at her before she actually tries to nip

 

[doriangrey]

I personally wouldn't lead from the front, but from the shoulder anyway (each to their own of course, I do feel it's safer). He's in the driving position if you get me (think a stallion driving his mares forwards for instance). If you let him get away with a couple of nips without remonstration then he probably got carried away.

 

[PolarSkye]

So what you are saying is that this horse could get away with behaving like that to the Polish warmblood field boss.Depending on circumstances. In my experience ,never!. He would wind ip sporting a set of designer teeth marks .There is ALWAYS a pecking order even if occasionaly some lee way is tolerated.

Actually, he regularly comes in with teeth marks . . . and as Sean (the Connie) wouldn't dare, I know it's the warmblood.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I personally wouldn't lead from the front, but from the shoulder anyway (each to their own of course, I do feel it's safer). He's in the driving position if you get me (think a stallion driving his mares forwards for instance). If you let him get away with a couple of nips without remonstration then he probably got carried away.

Interesting point about stallion driving mares from behind, but I have had him three and a half years and he has always preferred to saunter behind and this behaviour has only started in the last couple of weeks (if that). Oh, and I did reprimand him when he nipped . . . he isn't allowed to get away with any sort of behaviour like that . . . not when led, and not on the ground - ever.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

He isnt playing ,and he isnt attacking you(believe me you would soon know).Therefore he is disciplining you. He considers himself above you in the herd ,regardless of how assertive you think you are being.Even the idea that he simply doesnt want to come in would not be a sufficient trigger if he considered you the boss.

I don't think he's playing and I don't think he's attacking me . . . I think he has gone from nipping to threatening to bite.

However, assuming you are right, why would he suddenly start this after three and a half years of ownership when nothing else has changed? He was pretty bossy and disrespectful when we bought him, but we nipped that in the bud and I have stayed consistent and firm with him since. So what's changed now?

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Interesting . . . see my responses highlighted in red below . . .

Sounds like he's hungry.

This works two ways - first, it affects blood sugar - levels don't stay consistent. Everybody gets a bit hungry when their blood sugar/insulin levels go up and down - especially as he presumably knows that he's coming in where there will be more food, so anticipation.

He has always been funny about food - gets very excited when fed so you may be right about the anticipation (has never nipped in anticipation, though).

Second, it's possible the excess stomach acid is a bit burny and sloshing around onto the sensitive part of his stomach - a nip can redirected aggression due to pain.

Although he has never been scoped for ulcers, he has displayed a few symptoms . . . girthiness, irritability, box walking . . . which is one of the reasons I am so careful with his diet . . . makes sense that if he is hungry/empty the action of walking causes the acid to slosh . . . he never does this when I turn him out (at which point he is full from breakfast), nor does he do it when there is loads of grass in the field (also full). Hmmmmm.

I'm sorry, I don't buy the "general dominance" thing at all. Horses are not "dominant", they exert dominance over resources they feel are scarce. So a horse will gurn at other horses passing their stable, if they have been stuck inside a lot and feel space is a scarce resource. They will try to prevent a companion being taken out of their field, if they have been left alone before. They will chase other horses off their feed, because we "make" high value food a scarce resource by putting it in individual buckets. They will chase other horses out of a shelter if it's hot and the shelter is small. Dominance isn't an overall characteristic, so a horse can be dominant over one thing but not others. And it can vary - a horse can exert dominance over hay in January, but not be in the least bit interested in it in July.

What you describe is a behaviour change, where it's not something you've observed before. When a behaviour changes, there's a reason. Look at the most obvious things in terms of (a) where the horse is when it happens (does it happen when leading out, with a full stomach?), (b) when does it not happen, and (c) whether you can change it by e.g. offering a bowl of damp chaff at the field gate before leading up. If this works, you have your answer (and even better, you have your answer without having to get on your horse's case for vague reasons like "he's trying to dominate you when he never has before" )

See above for answers about when it happens/does not happen. Will certainly try giving him some chaff before leading him up from the field and see if that works. I'm another one who doesn't buy the "he's being dominant" . . . he just isn't a dominant horse . . . cheeky and disrespectful sometimes, yes, but never dominant.

Thank you - lots to think about .

P

 

[dotty1]

My six year old mare is evil when I tie her up after catching, she threatens to bite with ears back, I generally ignore it and by the time I get a brush she is fine. She does have a dominant nature and given an inch would take a mile. I think she is just trying to prove a point, but it doesn't get her anywhere!

 

[Kelly1982]

I personally think its because he doesn't wanna leave the others.

My horse will nicker to me and walk over to me in the field. Is happy to be caught etc but when I'm walking him up the track to the stables he is very reluctant to walk and he shakes his head up and down trying to snatch the lead rope out of my hands. He is worse when my mare is left out too as I think he feels like 'she is still out so why do I have to come in'.

Once he is in he is well behaved again and will only do this behaviour if the others are out. If everyone has started to bring in he is happy to walk up.

I think your boy is just being grumpy coz the others are still out and this is his way of showing you his disgust.

 

[Wagtail]

I personally think its because he doesn't wanna leave the others.

My horse will nicker to me and walk over to me in the field. Is happy to be caught etc but when I'm walking him up the track to the stables he is very reluctant to walk and he shakes his head up and down trying to snatch the lead rope out of my hands. He is worse when my mare is left out too as I think he feels like 'she is still out so why do I have to come in'.

Once he is in he is well behaved again and will only do this behaviour if the others are out. If everyone has started to bring in he is happy to walk up.

I think your boy is just being grumpy coz the others are still out and this is his way of showing you his disgust.

I completely agree. He doesn't want to leave the herd. It's okay to walk a certain distance, but when it gets too far he doesn't like it.