GSD Hip Dysplacia. Experiences with early diagnosis in puppies please?

Nickles1973

Nickles1973

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My Brother has recently bought a beautiful GSD dog. He's just 12 weeks and has a fab temprement and is very handsom. At his second jab appointment the vet mentioned that as he was a little whiney he might have Hip Dysplacia as this is common in GSD's??? I was a little surprised that he would jump to this conclusion at such an early age just simply because the dog whimpered a little bit at the vets but my Brother was obviously concerned. The vet wanted to refer him to a more senior vet and this took place today. More senior vet has looked at the puppy and has said he strongly suspects HD and has said that he has operated on a young beagle in the past which might help my brothers pup. He is recommending X-rays and if these are conclusive then operating whilst puppy is already under. I am trying to understand how vet's are managing to come to all these conclusions when puppy is so young and that x-rays have not even been taken?? Plus even though puppy has been insured since my brother took him from the breeder does the fact that the vet is so sure he has signs of HD at this young age will insurance say that this is pre existing condition?? Sorry for the long post, just after some experiences so I can give my Brother some hope as he's feeling a bit low.
 
I have heard of a pup diagnosed with HD at such a young age, but that was because it couldn't walk.:( If your brothers pup is active and not showing any sign of lameness I am at a total loss why the vet suspects HD, GSD pups are notorious for being loose in the hocks as babies, but as they muscle up the become sound.
I suggest your brother contacts the breeder of his pup who will hopefully be able to put his mind at rest by referring him to a vet who knows the breed. I would be very loathe to let a vet carry out surgery on such a young pup unless it was in a huge amount of pain. Oh and for the record, GSD pups are the biggest whingers in the world, they often don't get much better as they grow up so not exactly a sign of bad hips.
 
Hmm, I suppose that is a possibility DG, but even so quite surprised at the vet making such a statement without x rays. I should have asked about parents scores OP , DG beat me to it.
 
Obviously I've not seen the pup, and there might be something glaringly obvious on clin exam, but if it really is just based on assumption because the pup is whining, then I would say the vet is jumping to conclusions based on breed rather than using common sense. You cannot diagnose HD conclusively without x-rays, but unless the pup is showing obvious clinical signs then I wouldn't be rushing to do that yet. TBH, even if the pup is lame I would be inclined to try rest/NSAID trial for a week or two and then re-examine, I wouldn't be x-raying unless the dog there was no improvement in a few weeks.

If it were me I would be getting a 2nd opinion from a different vet practice, I certainly wouldn't let them GA a 12 week old puppy that isn't showing clinical signs, the surgeries that are performed in young dogs with HD, like TPO's, can still be done in puppies 6 months plus.
 
I know little about these things but apparently Dad hip scored 3/3 which I am told is low. Not sure about mum. To our knowledge breeder has no connection to the vet in question and has this evening told my Brother's partner that she doesn't believe it possible to diagnose a puppy this young that is seemingly perfectly normal to look at. And certainly not without x-rays.
Brother has just told me that he took out a new insurance policy which started on the 28th so now the vet has also jeapordised any chance that the puppy's condition would be covered if it was to be shown to have HD as the insurance company will call it a pre existing condition. :-(
 
To put everyones mind at rest and for the pups sake why not xray?,When we used to breed retrievers we had any pups we hoped to keep xrayed at 12 weeks when they had their 2nd vaccine,so we knew barring accidents what their hips were like,at that time they were lightly sedated no GA.
 
Thanks for all your replies, I have recommended that my brother seeks a second opinion asap and if necessary ask's for the x-rays. I have also suggested they ask about sedation rather than GA for the x-rays!
1st vet says that surgery has to be done before 5 months to be successful so I am now wondering if this is not some new experimental treatment since I can find no reference to this being the case anywhere else.
 
GSDs are not hipscored until at least 12 months because the joints are not developed properly.
As mentioned GSD pups are terrible loose until maturity.
You can have prelims taken before actual scoring.

My puppy whines a lot - he is a whiney puppy.
One vet tried to diagnose HD in my older dog because he seemed uncomfortable being poked and prodded and pulled about on a table during an ultrasound scan - we had his hips x-rayed digitally and they are as good as they come.

Please please get a second or third opinion, try your breeder's vet, try a vet that often and routinely x-rays for the BVA hip scoring scheme.

Sorry but I have heard some vets talk total bull about HD, like 'they all get it eventually' - I have owned them all my life and the highest score any of our dogs have had is a total of 12.

On an other forum an eight month puppy was put down on the say so of a vet, the plates were handed over to the breeder's vet who found no evidence of dysplasia.

It is a real pity that Dr Malcolm Willis has passed away :( he would look at plates for anyone and was very accurate in his predictions. A real loss to the breed.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to diagnose HD without x-rays/PennHip and anyone who says they can is a liar.
 
Oh and being cynical here, but SOME vets seem to be recommending this extreme surgery earlier and earlier and earlier without letting the dog's joints develop/settle, this was completely unheard of not so long ago.
Lots of long term custom and lots of income. I would hate to think that people are using loose puppies as a cash cow.


I can genuinely count on one hand the dogs I have known with hip dysplasia/high hip scores - one moved like a dream and was made up to champion before 18 months (retired when they got the scores back), one is a champion but not at stud (50 on one hip, 0 on the other so likely accidental, but they decided to err on the side of caution) the other was PTS on the table, rightly or wrongly.
Known four with bad elbows, one is the best moving bitch I have seen, one shows no outward signs, two PTS after they became lame, again, for right or wrong but both had basically nothing left :(
 
Having just lost an 8 month lurcher due to an ortho vet not having as steady hands as he should of, when operating on our lad (TPO) for HD. I would definitely err on the side of caution. We had our boy x-rayed and he had seriously shallow socket joints, so when he ran and then pulled up, he was seriously lame.

I really don't see how a vet would want to operate on such a young dog, surely the dog needs to grow more before any decisions are made.

I would be beware of vets with large egos!
 
I'm sorry guys but im going to have to disagree with the majority here.

Pups CAN have suspect signs of Hip dysplasia very young and have the disease.
However suspect signs do not necessarily mean Hip dysplasia..Officially the earliest that Hip dysplasia can be confirmed in a Puppy is 4 months and thats using the Pennhip method which is also not as commonly used in europe compared to america.However in very severe cases it can be seen on xray at a younger age...

There are serious suspect signs of hip dysplasia that should not be ignored...when you say the vet examined the hips and the pup reacted painfully... there is a technique known as Ortolani's sign which can tell you if the Hip joint is luxating(poping out of its socket) or not.Its possible that this may have been what you vet discovered.It would be considered to be a very significant finding in awake dog regardless of the age of the pup....if that was the case I would be treating this pup as a hip dysplasia case until proved otherwise by xray.Better to be safe than sorry

You need to get your brother to have a serious discussion with your his vet about the insurance implications and what the vets plan to do with the pup to correct the issue found before any more diagnostics are done and see what they say.
If he doesn't feel that he can have a discussion with his vets then he may need to be considering a second opinion.

IF it is Hip dysplasia and as others here pointed out it is still an IF xrays are needed to confirm....

There are different operations available that depend on the age of the dog involved.One of these can ONLY be done on dogs under 4 months.(juvenile pubic symphysiodesis )The next in dogs from 6 to 9 months (TPO) with no arthritic changes and the older dogs there are salvage procedures-hip replacements,arthroplasty.
However as always surgery is not the only option the pup could just be managed medically....so have restricted exercise,controlled diet,weight management and pain medication if required...

But as the others German Shepard can be quite wussy and have unusual gait...and I have nothing to go on having never seen or touched the pup....there may have been a very clear case of HD in front of the two vets with this pup...or there may have not been....whining on palpation could just be a whiny dog or it could be more as Ive outlined above.... unless your brother is seriously considering surgery if its an issue I would consider delaying until he is a little older or consider geting the opinion of an orthopedic expert or a vet very experienced with the breed.
Even if the pup is not in pain or not showing many of the clinical signs Id treat this lad as a suspect HD and give him all goes with it in the mean time,again better to be safe than sorry especially as im really suspicious of what the two vets have seen with him.....id also be checking up about the insurance implications made so far...

For anyone who's interested the suspect signs of HD would be...
Waddling rear limb gait.
A "bunny hop" gait (moving both rear legs together).
A side-to-side sway of the croup (area of the back above the hind legs and in front of tail.)
Tendency to tilt hips down when pressure applied to rump.
Rear limb lameness, particularly after exercise.
Difficulty or stiffness upon rising or climbing uphill.
Rising using front legs only and dragging rear end.
A painful reaction to extension of the rear legs resulting in a characteristic short stride.
Reluctance to jump, exercise or climb stairs.
 
Way early to be diagnosing HD, especially without x rays. Please talk to the breeder and get a second opinion from a more experienced (with joints) vet.
 
Rear limb lameness, particularly after exercise.
Difficulty or stiffness upon rising or climbing uphill.
Rising using front legs only and dragging rear end. (This can also be CDRM)
A painful reaction to extension of the rear legs resulting in a characteristic short stride.
Reluctance to jump, exercise or climb stairs.

My dog had all of these. Following x-ray it was confirmed hips are excellent. He had damaged his back (and seems to have tweaked it again, the bugger, almost two years to the day). Cleared up with anti-inflammatories.
 
CaveCanem said:
Rear limb lameness, particularly after exercise.
Difficulty or stiffness upon rising or climbing uphill.
Rising using front legs only and dragging rear end. (This can also be CDRM)
A painful reaction to extension of the rear legs resulting in a characteristic short stride.
Reluctance to jump, exercise or climb stairs.

My dog had all of these. Following x-ray it was confirmed hips are excellent. He had damaged his back (and seems to have tweaked it again, the bugger, almost two years to the day). Cleared up with anti-inflammatories.
Click to expand...

Then I can see why your vet was suspicious of hip dysplasia*ducks and hides so cavecanem cant throw things as me :P

That is why xrays are so important to confirm because even the clinical signs seen can be showing a different story....but given that that list is what I, as a vet student, have been given as the markers for Hip dysplasia before diagnostics-and as it happens those signs are what id be looking for in an mature dog not a pup,and this disease is considered as an issue within the breed..I can sort of see why your vet was considering it....I do think they should have stressed the SUSPECT part of the HD issue and looked at other potential causes :P
just my two cents
 
I actually deleted first reference to vet as it was misleading.

The first vet (same practise) diagnosed hip problems because dog was uncomfortable up on table having is leg held aloft and the scanner poked in his bladder :p and while on ground with her manipulating him. Not his normal vet.

The rest of the symptoms followed later and his normal vet would not say anything about his hips until the x-rays were taken. It was ME who was convinced it was his hips because of what the first vet said.

But do agree it could be a myriad of things or nothing at all. I obviously know you are a vet student :) but I have heard too many horror stories both here and in the USA about people blindly accepting a breed-biased diagnosis and doing something drastic without x-rays or a second opinion :)
 
You know I am but I reckoned now would be the time to declare my bias in the discussion :P

But ya i agree with the preconceived idea that the breed can sometimes set off warning bells that may distract from the clinical picture in front of you.

A list of the ones that automatically poop into my head are
Westie- allergies, sensitivities and westie jaw
Labs- foreign body ingestion,obesity and hip dysplasia
Shih-zus-eye ulcers
Boxer-cancer and heart problems
Giant Breed of any type-Heart and Joint issues
Bulldog-breathing and skin issues
GSD- Git,skin and joint issues :P

While that immediate suspicion arrives the minute you see the breed and the breed suspicion is often useful to consider cases like you boy prove its important not to get blindsided....Diagnostics to confirm are always good!when they can be trusted...sigh that however is a whole other issue!
 
:P
*pats cavecanum on back in commiseration over big dogs issues
and yet knowing all this i still wants one in the future!...someday someday
 
Aru, I do understand the guides students are given for certain breeds (my daughter hardly dare tell me what she had been told about shepherds at uni:p).
However, as you rightly say x ray is really the only way to diagnose. I have had a bitch with truly awful hips (score in the 90s) who showed none of the symptoms listed, and dogs with really good hips who have been unsound, loose hocks, weak in the hindquarters etc.
I don't think the OP has said if the pup has shown any clinical signs or the vets just reached the conclusion because it was whiney. I would not consider loose hocks a clinical sign by the way. Believe me, I have had many a 12 week pup (aka brat) which has not just whined but screamed the place down when we have tried to keep it still on the vets table. :o At that age they want to be off and doing things, not being made to stand still.
Sadly some vets do seem keen to try out money making operations that may not always be the best option. In the last week I have heard of a vet who diagnosed a GSD with severe HD and recommended surgery, luckily the owner contacted the breeder who said to score the plates first. The dog had a hips score total of 9 and gained a german A stamp. Not hip related but just this week a neighbours dog damaged its cruciate and their vet recommended major surgery at a cost of £3000, as the dog is not insured the owners could not afford this. My daughter recommended our vets, who are carrying out a more straightforward repair for around £500!
 
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