GSD Puppy help!!

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
Hi all!
I haven't posted on the forum in a while but know there are some very knowledgeable people on here especially when it comes to GSDs.

So we have a 4 month old boy who we have had for about 2.5 weeks (I know, not long at all really). He is a sweet dog, brave, smart, loving has a great temperament most of the time which is why I think it may be something in his routine that needs to change to keep this temperament consistent.

He of course, like any pup gets excited and nibbles which is fine. He has gained a good bite inhibition already within the 2.5 weeks of being with us. When he first arrived he would snap alot, not puppy nibble but would turn and snap with no seeming reason, he seems to have stopped doing this 90% of the time I think down to us very quickly making it clear its not ok to snap like that especially when the human has barely even looked in your direction. The issues is he seems to get into a state which we have now named "the red mist" where he can't seem to control himself, he will start biting and pulling at clothing/skin/anything part of the closest human. He is a big and strong 4 month pup so this really needs to be nipped in the bud! We have all had ripped clothing, blood and bruises from his bites we have also had pups before and this is not anything like we have dealt with in the past.

If you are playing with him you kind of expect teeth to touch skin, but he never really actually bites here. This is where he really shows off his bite inhibition. He puts teeth to skin but never any pressure and as soon as you are done playing he will go back to chewing his toy or is quite happy to just sit/lay and watch the world. But when this red mist takes over it's like he can't control anything, he doesn't respond to any commands and bites like he is trying to harm the only way so far we have been able to "stop him from attacking" for want of a better word! Is by distracting him (we have taken to having a tea towel or duster close by at all times to get his attention and trow for him to get) and then either putting him in the crate/kitchen on his own for a time out. This morning I have just been told that yesterday he "went" for my mum in the garden during one of his red mist moment hooning around the garden like a loony. Unfortunately noone else was around to see this but this is the first time where mum has said that she thought he actually showed aggression. He ended up hurting himself from bolting around the garden and of course mum was worried to approach after he's just been quite aggressive and is now hurting so called my dad to assist. They got him into the crate for a rest and a time out and seemed fine after but mum is now really worried that this red mist state isn't just him settling in still and actually could be a sign of proper aggression?

My parents are both dog people and have both owned before, my dad particularly I would say was a pretty experienced dog owner and has had GSDs in the past. He is not wanting to get too involved at the moment though as it was my mum who wanted the dog and is to be the primary career throughout the day.

I would really appreciate any tips/ideas/thoughts? I am worried he is going to knock my mums confidence and all hell is going to break loose.

We have been talking about different causes and reasons and different things we can try. So far we have come up with that he is over tired and the plan starting this week is to have more enforced naps in crate. We are trying an hour out of the crate at a time and then how long he is in the crate is dependent on him (he likes the crate and will happily sit/nap/chew a toy for a couple of hours at a time).

We also discussed him not being stimulated enough but I don't think this is the issues! He doesn't really know how to play but we are working on it playing out in the garden multiple times a day, he had an abundance of toys he loves to chew, play tug of war with etc. and is currently doing x3 30min walks a day but doesn't actually seem to want to go on the walks (he'll pull back to the house/just sit and stop and will barely even move with coaxing with treats)

He is currently on antibiotics for a bacterial infection and is having probiotics in the morning as has very runny poos. We also don't really know what he had done previously before he came to us 2.5 weeks ago.

If you have got this far give yourself a pat on the back! I really would appreciate your thoughts and any ideas or tips!
 

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
8,517
Visit site
Could he be in pain and at some points just being hurts, He sounds like he is a bit over walked and over stimulated too. A pup his age should only be walked for 20 minutes a day on a lead and shouldnt be tearing around chasing things. Quiet time is also very important but I still think it could be pain or anticipation of it
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
Hard to say without seeing him or what you or your parents are doing but Windandrain is correct on all counts.
Runny poo can also be a sign of stress, he sounds quite highly strung.

What way is he bred/where did you get him from? PM if you prefer.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
Could he be in pain and at some points just being hurts, He sounds like he is a bit over walked and over stimulated too. A pup his age should only be walked for 20 minutes a day on a lead and shouldnt be tearing around chasing things. Quiet time is also very important but I still think it could be pain or anticipation of it

Thanks for your reply! I agree he shouldn't be tearing around chasing things and we have had to take him out in the garden on a lead a good couple of times because he won't stop once it's started. Of course we don't want to be only taking him out in the garden on a lead for the foreseeable future so if he is seeming in a calm state he goes out without and it is pretty 50/50 if he goes for a quick wee and comes back in or flips a switch and starts hooning around and of course is asking to calm down and come back in. Sorry I should of said in the original post that he is to be a police dog (hopefully if we can sort this out!) so they have said 3 walks a day, morning, afternoon and evening for about 20-30 mins. Although your advise would make sense so maybe when he is inside maybe he doesn't need playtime because of the amount of walks? but surely all pups need some play time?

I worry about him anticipating pain too, he is a bit of a drama queen and very clumsy. He ran straight into the door Sat and made a real big fuss so much so that I thought he had really seriously hurt himself but seemed fine within a few minutes. Like I said in the original post we are not sure what his training was like where he was before but I would like to think there wasn't pain induced punishment :(
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
Hard to say without seeing him or what you or your parents are doing but Windandrain is correct on all counts.
Runny poo can also be a sign of stress, he sounds quite highly strung.

What way is he bred/where did you get him from? PM if you prefer.

of course, thank you for replying anyway!

He is definitely very highly strung, he is named King and I think that is exactly what he wants/thinks of himself.

I should of mentioned in the original post but he is to be a police dog assuming we can get him to a certain standard so he is from protective/guard/working dog lines. Not a pet dog at all, hence why it may sound like we are over stimulating/exercising but this is what the police dog trainer has suggested even after we have expressed our concerns.

According to the trainers he is their star pupil but whenever they see him/he is taken out the house he is good as gold so I think they think we are nutters or over exaggerating.

We have been thinking the same with the running poo but vet has said he has signs of a bacteria infection so have given antibiotics and probiotics which are meant to help his stomach. Vet didn't think there were any signs of stress.
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
OK if he is to be a police dog, the propensity to want to chase things, bite things, rag things, have things in his mouth to the back teeth and generally be a dickhead is likely to be genetic and is completely normal, sorry.
This isn't a dog bred to just to be a pet, he's bred to be a working animal too.
Energy, possession and attitude is what makes these dogs. If he's being overbearing, just tell him to knock it off and give him a time out in the crate, you won't break him. If he's allowed to incessantly hoon about and damage himself he very well may be broken by the time he's five or six. If you want to play with him, check out the socials of a trainer like Craig Ogilvie, who teaches people to play tug properly/constructively with your dog. It's a really easy thing to mess up if you don't know what you're doing.
I was going to say, he sounds like my older dog, without the runny poo. He was a pain in the arse as a youngster but grew up to be super sport/competition dog (until he cottoned on to the fact that I had no control over him in competitions :p) and a few police dog handlers said they would have given their eye teeth for him as a working or breeding animal. They would have probably have sent him back, screaming.
And yes, they probably will think that you are over-exaggerating ;) this is normal for them.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
OK if he is to be a police dog, the propensity to want to chase things, bite things, rag things, have things in his mouth to the back teeth and generally be a dickhead is likely to be genetic and is completely normal, sorry.
This isn't a dog bred to just to be a pet, he's bred to be a working animal too.
Energy, possession and attitude is what makes these dogs. If he's being overbearing, just tell him to knock it off and give him a time out in the crate, you won't break him. If he's allowed to incessantly hoon about and damage himself he very well may be broken by the time he's five or six. If you want to play with him, check out the socials of a trainer like Craig Ogilvie, who teaches people to play tug properly/constructively with your dog. It's a really easy thing to mess up if you don't know what you're doing.
I was going to say, he sounds like my older dog, without the runny poo. He was a pain in the arse as a youngster but grew up to be super sport/competition dog (until he cottoned on to the fact that I had no control over him in competitions :p) and a few police dog handlers said they would have given their eye teeth for him as a working or breeding animal. They would have probably have sent him back, screaming.

100% we are well aware he is not a pet and never will be, but he's 90% of the time chilled calm controlled dog and then a switch will turn in his head and he will be biting to hurt at anything he can grab which obviously if he was working and out in public can't happen. He can be overbearing as he is a big strong pup but with a strong voice will knock it off and we all go back to happy life. I have thought it for a while and mum (who is normally very calm and takes his behavior on the chin) even said she is starting to wonder if he has a screw loose.

I can't explain it other than flicking a switch from exactly what you expect from a 4 month big boisterous puppy to a dog that is almost feral and is suddenly deaf! Imagine a sports car with a lot of gas but has good breaks to sports car that has the accelerator on full no breaks, lost the indicators and steering. 0-100 in a snap.

I have looked at a few trainers techniques but not Craig Oglivie so will look into him!

The switch seems to happen when he is calm not when he is playing when he is play chasing biting doing all natural working dog stuff during play he is hardwork but can be told to stop. Do you still think this is his natural genetic behavior or something else.

If we can get a hold of the out of control and aggression he will be a once in a lifetime dog! He just can't be trusted at the moment.

I really do appreciate your opinion I would say between myself, my partner and mum and dad we are pretty knowledgeable but not necessarily with working dogs so am conscious of a fine line of an excuse of he's a working dog who is high strung and potentially creating a dangerous out of control dog!
 
Last edited:

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
Discounting the fact that he might be in pain and in need of a vet check, most of it sounds completely normal to me, for a high drive working puppy, he sounds just like my own lad, and it will likely improve as he gets older and you tell him firmly and clearly that the twatty behaviour is not acceptable, what is permitted, is what will continue. You will not break him, I promise.

But everything needs to be clear - he won't understand one minute why he is allowed to do something one minute, and not the next - this will create frustration and what we would see as a tantrum. You need to teach him what is 'too much' - he doesn't know, he may just see an unfair rule change. And if there are four of you with different approaches that will also be a problem, everyone has to be on the same page.
Maybe slightly tongue in cheek, but if you're not pouring with claret and going off to A&E for stitches every time, it's not 'aggression'. He's only been with you for two and a half weeks, give him time.

Unless you're experienced with some of the newer-to-this-country (last 15-20 years) European working lines, it will be a bit of a culture shock for even people who consider themselves experienced with GSDs. I had them my whole life, but my first working dog was exactly like going from a Fiat to a Ferrari. In other countries they want a dog with a bit more poke for service and this is where you see the rub off.

Craig trained with sport and service handlers and now adapts what he learned for pet dogs, he's a good trainer.
 
Last edited:

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
Discounting the fact that he might be in pain and in need of a vet check, most of it sounds completely normal to me, for a high drive working puppy, he sounds just like my own lad, and it will likely improve as he gets older and you tell him firmly and clearly that the twatty behaviour is not acceptable, what is permitted, is what will continue. You will not break him, I promise.

But everything needs to be clear - he won't understand one minute why he is allowed to do something one minute, and not the next - this will create frustration and what we would see as a tantrum. You need to teach him what is 'too much' - he doesn't know, he may just see an unfair rule change. And if there are four of you with different approaches that will also be a problem, everyone has to be on the same page.
Maybe slightly tongue in cheek, but if you're not pouring with claret and going off to A&E for stitches every time, it's not 'aggression'. He's only been with you for two and a half weeks, give him time.

Unless you're experienced with some of the newer-to-this-country (last 15-20 years) European working lines, it will be a bit of a culture shock for even people who consider themselves experienced with GSDs. I had them my whole life, but my first working dog was exactly like going from a Fiat to a Ferrari. In other countries they want a dog with a bit more poke for service and this is where you see the rub off.

Craig trained with sport and service handlers and now adapts what he learned for pet dogs, he's a good trainer.

That has given me some relief! We will just have to wait it out!

I haven't seen the aggression only my mum but I have seen the switch and apparently last night was the switch with standoffish behavior, There has been some claret :( but no stitches needed so far due to puppy teeth, when they start falling out if he hasn't grown out of it it could be another story (which is what I have been worried about)!!

We are all very much on the same page, mum is the boss and how she says things are handled they are handled so I think we are ok from that point of view, he certainly knows boundaries and listens when he is in the right mind frame.

My dad is the only one of us to experience GSD working breeds and funnily enough he is the most calm about the situation, to be honest I think he needs to help mum out, it is their dog until he is hopefully handed over to the police, he just has this typical man ego of I didn't want it and still don't... even if he has been caught having a cuddle or two!

Fiat to Ferrari describes it perfectly! You have put my mind at ease alot to be honest, so thank you. I have been dreading the next couple of months when his adult teeth start to come in and he gets bigger and bigger. He is a smart dog and is generally well behaved for a 4 month pup! It sounds as though it is an age thing and he could benefit from some more time out, which is being implemented from today! So fingers crossed we can have more of the soppy pup who loves a tummy tiggle!

I will look into Craig he sounds like a good trainer!
 

SusieT

Well-Known Member
Joined
15 September 2009
Messages
5,915
Visit site
I would ring a good positive re inforcmeent behaviourist today and get them out to help - it is highly likely this is just a high drive dog and there is not aggression involved. Getting good solid training on board now is what you need - as in this eek, this month -not in 6 months time when he has learnt properly bad behaviour- this sounds like a pup who needs consistency, consistency, consistency -time outs are a great idea, and if hes hooning around its normla for them to then get growly/play fighitng and take it to the extreme but you need to know how to stop actual injuries and its hard to advise without seeing him in the flesh
 

PurBee

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 November 2019
Messages
5,472
Visit site
You havent had him long so i wonder if you know his worming history?
The stool issue could be a sign of parasite burden. Tapeworm, roundworm and lung/heartworm him. Do regular cycles of these rather than bombard his system with a huge dose multi-wormer.

Whats he eating? Grain-based and dry foods with colourings can affect many dogs. Look into cleaning up the diet away from predominant grain-based if thats what he’s already on, see if that alters his behaviour.

My gsd as a pup had an awful reaction to dry food colourings, she would instantly after eating itch her front neck while her nose was running clear mucous. Many dog ‘treats’ have colourings in. As soon as i stopped these the symptoms disappeared.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
You havent had him long so i wonder if you know his worming history?
The stool issue could be a sign of parasite burden. Tapeworm, roundworm and lung/heartworm him. Do regular cycles of these rather than bombard his system with a huge dose multi-wormer.

Whats he eating? Grain-based and dry foods with colourings can affect many dogs. Look into cleaning up the diet away from predominant grain-based if thats what he’s already on, see if that alters his behaviour.

My gsd as a pup had an awful reaction to dry food colourings, she would instantly after eating itch her front neck while her nose was running clear mucous. Many dog ‘treats’ have colourings in. As soon as i stopped these the symptoms disappeared.

Thank you for this! This is really helpful. He has been to see the Vet about his upset stomach and bloodshot eyes and vet prescribes antibiotics and probiotics which he has been on since Fri, there has been a an improvement but not massive so we shall see. We have been told he had been wormed just before he came to us so am assuming this is not the issue but if we stop seeing improvements with the antibiotics I'll get mum to mention this to the vet!

Everything he eats is police trainer recommended, doesn't mean that it is not whats causing it though! He has dry kibble and real meat treats very rarely. Will keep this in mind though as this had also crossed my mind!
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
I would ring a good positive re inforcmeent behaviourist today and get them out to help - it is highly likely this is just a high drive dog and there is not aggression involved. Getting good solid training on board now is what you need - as in this eek, this month -not in 6 months time when he has learnt properly bad behaviour- this sounds like a pup who needs consistency, consistency, consistency -time outs are a great idea, and if hes hooning around its normla for them to then get growly/play fighitng and take it to the extreme but you need to know how to stop actual injuries and its hard to advise without seeing him in the flesh

Mum has taken him to his first training session of regular sessions last week but when she expressed her concerns they didn't seem to see anything wrong with him, of course because the dog they saw was good as gold like he is 90% of the time!

The biting hard surprise attack doesn't seem to come when he's playing. When he is playing he growls and play fights but never does more than puppy chewing and it's always controlled, when we say playtimes over he listens. Its when we are relaxing and he suddenly bites to hurt. Last happened to me when I was sitting on the sofa chatting to mum and he was by my feet chewing his toy and before I knew it I had needles in my feet and my trousers being ripped and no matter how strong/loud you are or what you say/what you give in return to let go of flesh he doesn't listen. Mum had to drag him away being snapped at herself and put him in his crate. 30mins- 1hr later he comes out and he's completely soppy docile dog again!

It is so annoying because anyone who is outside of us 4 as a family don't get to see this side to him so am really struggling to get some advice! I have told mum that if it happens again she should try and get it on video so at least when she goes to puppy training next time she can show what he has been doing! I think he probably would appreciate a lot more enforced naps in his crate.
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
I'm betting 99% of the time, if he bites your clothes or part of your anatomy or a toy, you pull it/yourself away, right, rather than relax or go floppy/dead?
You've made yourself 'live'. It could be the case that the person will be wiggling/moving and the toy or distraction in the other hand will be dead/less active and less interesting.
This will be a fun game for him and removing him from what he perceives as fun activity will of course make him cross.
This dog will have come from decades of instinctively wanting to resist/possess the moving thing. It's one of the biggest mistakes people make in training. The dog has something in their mouth and they keep the tension on it/pull, and then are surprised when the dog doesn't let go. Please also don't do the 'ouch' or high pitched squeal thing with a pup like this if he lays teeth on you, it just makes you sound like prey ;)
It sounds like you are humanising him/expecting a bit too much understanding at his age, if I am being honest.

If he's good at training sessions it is because his mind is being occupied, these dogs aren't really made for sofa surfing and cuddles, they need to be thinking and doing something, at this age, it's not about physical activity but brain training. As Jane Donaldson put it, and perhaps I am paraphrasing you don't leave a child with a crossword puzzle book do you? You were on the sofa talking to Mum and not engaging with him. These dogs need to be brought out, engaged with and then put away in their den or quiet place to chill out, until they grow into their brains and bodies a bit more.
 
Last edited:

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
8,517
Visit site
trouble is a working service dog needs to learn to stop he will fail miserably if he cannot quit his agression on command he will of course also fail if he is a wimp so he needs to learn to control himself
 

skinnydipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2018
Messages
6,201
Visit site
CC has a wealth of experience training working lines GSDs and I respect her opinion. I have no experience of a highly driven dog.

I was wondering if his behaviour could be caused by unintentional over arousal/sensory overload. There is a lot going on in our homes that we take for granted but if the pup was previously from a kennel environment it will have an impact on him.

He will be an exceptionally bright dog and could be expressing his frustration by mouthing and grabbing.

CC's suggestion of using Craig Ogilvie's techniques is a good one because the pup will have to learn self control to enable to the game to continue.

He needs to learn to settle and relax. You can use a mat/bed or crate. I prefer a mat or bed. Teach him to go to his mat on cue and reward him for doing this. Reward him frequently for staying on his mat and gradually increase the time between rewards. He will eventually be able to settle, relax and sleep.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
I'm betting 99% of the time, if he bites your clothes or part of your anatomy or a toy, you pull it/yourself away, right, rather than relax or go floppy/dead?
You've made yourself 'live'. It could be the case that the person will be wiggling/moving and the toy or distraction in the other hand will be dead/less active and less interesting.
This will be a fun game for him and removing him from what he perceives as fun activity will of course make him cross.
This dog will have come from decades of instinctively wanting to resist/possess the moving thing. It's one of the biggest mistakes people make in training. The dog has something in their mouth and they keep the tension on it/pull, and then are surprised when the dog doesn't let go. Please also don't do the 'ouch' or high pitched squeal thing with a pup like this if he lays teeth on you, it just makes you sound like prey ;)
It sounds like you are humanising him/expecting a bit too much understanding at his age, if I am being honest.

If he's good at training sessions it is because his mind is being occupied, these dogs aren't really made for sofa surfing and cuddles, they need to be thinking and doing something, at this age, it's not about physical activity but brain training. As Jane Donaldson put it, and perhaps I am paraphrasing you don't leave a child with a crossword puzzle book do you? You were on the sofa talking to Mum and not engaging with him. These dogs need to be brought out, engaged with and then put away in their den or quiet place to chill out, until they grow into their brains and bodies a bit more.

Well I don't go floppy but we don't pull away we grin and bare the pain (one of the ground rules set by mum) until he has been distracted or quite often has been pulled off. He will tug at jumpers/trousers what ever he can grab if it is moving or not. We were also recommended by the police trainer to push into his bites when he doesn't let go by command, this didn't seem to work and quite hard to do when its a thigh and he is pulling.

I do completely understand he is very prey driven but he can't be left to be feral, he needs to learn to socialist with us as a family without ripping us apart even when he is working in future he will live with a family and should relatively live like a normal dog.

We have never done the ouch or high pitch thing, we have always stayed very calm and it's always a deep loud no, which he response to 90% of the time.

I don't think I am humanising him at all to be honest. I am very well aware of where he has come from and what his job is to do. But I do agree perhaps this is normal for a working GSD of his breeding at this age which is why we are trying different things and asking for help.

He is not allowed on the sofa and we don't cuddle like a teddy bear... he loves to sit at our feet and have his ears stroked, thats what I mean by cuddle. He was sitting in his bed this particular time which is normally his chill out area, we didn't want to have to have him in his crate basically all the time when he is not training or playing or out and about. You keep saying he is a working dog which I agree he is and I am aware of what that means but when he goes to his handler he needs to be able to slot into family life also.

We were already thinking it and you seem to agree he needs enforced official time out more often. He is never left alone or ignored he is always doing something, chewing, doing doggy puzzles, mum has been reiterating training this week she learnt last week, 3 short walks a day and always a play in the garden.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
CC has a wealth of experience training working lines GSDs and I respect her opinion. I have no experience of a highly driven dog.

I was wondering if his behaviour could be caused by unintentional over arousal/sensory overload. There is a lot going on in our homes that we take for granted but if the pup was previously from a kennel environment it will have an impact on him.

He will be an exceptionally bright dog and could be expressing his frustration by mouthing and grabbing.

CC's suggestion of using Craig Ogilvie's techniques is a good one because the pup will have to learn self control to enable to the game to continue.

He needs to learn to settle and relax. You can use a mat/bed or crate. I prefer a mat or bed. Teach him to go to his mat on cue and reward him for doing this. Reward him frequently for staying on his mat and gradually increase the time between rewards. He will eventually be able to settle, relax and sleep.


Thank you, it does sound like what we are doing is right by him. He has both a bed and crate for time out which while its puppy playing getting to rough he will go to on command, he grabs his favourite chew toy and takes himself off to it. I think when he is out of control he is over tired/over stimulated whatever word you want to use. Hopefully with our new routine starting today this will help stopping him get to the point where we loose control.
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
trouble is a working service dog needs to learn to stop he will fail miserably if he cannot quit his agression on command he will of course also fail if he is a wimp so he needs to learn to control himself

100% my worries. He can be a little bit of a wimp but he pretty easy to coax around and give confidence to. It is the out of control behavior that worries me, as he doesn't seem to respond to anything!

I am sitting at work hoping mum has had a break through with the enforced crate time outs today. As soon as we get his behavior consistently under control he will be an amazing dog!
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
None of what I am saying is a criticism and I can only go from what you've written. You've used the term 'pulled off' several times. That's not a good idea and what I was trying to convey in post #15. These dogs work hard, they play hard ;) some dogs push into a bite naturally so I don't think I'd be doing that either lol. I guess I just can read a lot about a dog the way it barks and bites, they use their mouths the way we use our hands, it's a good way of telling what's going on in the dog's head but I've learned it through observation/experience so it's hard to convey that over the interwebs.

He'll also be kennelled a lot in work and will be in the car a lot too, I actually think time in the crate would be a lot more black and white for him, but you're welcome to do whatever :)
 

HEM

Well-Known Member
Joined
4 January 2018
Messages
648
Visit site
None of what I am saying is a criticism and I can only go from what you've written. You've used the term 'pulled off' several times. That's not a good idea and what I was trying to convey in post #15. These dogs work hard, they play hard ;) some dogs push into a bite naturally so I don't think I'd be doing that either lol. I guess I just can read a lot about a dog the way it barks and bites, they use their mouths the way we use our hands, it's a good way of telling what's going on in the dog's head but I've learned it through observation/experience so it's hard to convey that over the interwebs.

He'll also be kennelled a lot in work and will be in the car a lot too, I actually think time in the crate would be a lot more black and white for him, but you're welcome to do whatever :)

Well this is what I am asking for help on, I have had dogs and so have my family our whole life but never working GSDs. What would you suggest when you are standing still and he grabs your calf hard and starts to pull back, he won't listen to anyone, he ignores the tea towels that get shaken around and thrown around. There doesn't seem to be any other way to stop this other than pulling him off or having him crate bound constantly unless he is out, training or in the garden.

I would say I could do the same regarding reading a dog but it's a very neutral 'attack', there doesn't seem to be any immediate reason for it. He walks up to you very calm and just snaps and they won't let go and will start to pull.

Not as much as you would of thought. Whilst he is travelling yes and of course sleeping (which we do) other than that he would either be working so out on the lead or at home as a pretty much normal dog.

I agree with more time in the crate which is exactly why we are now trying this.
 

bonny

Well-Known Member
Joined
17 September 2007
Messages
6,487
Visit site
I have a friend with a young dog of an entirely different breed who is having very similar problems and has the cuts to prove it. She’s becoming scared of her dog and I suspect that’s adding to the problem but ....I’ll be jumped on be the ‘experts’ on here but maybe you should treat this pup the same as you would do any dog instead of focusing on his breed ? He needs to be able to behave the same as any other dog around people or he will just be dangerous.
 

skinnydipper

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 February 2018
Messages
6,201
Visit site
He'll also be kennelled a lot in work and will be in the car a lot too, I actually think time in the crate would be a lot more black and white for him, but you're welcome to do whatever :)

Sorry if I have clouded the issue, CC.

I was looking at it from the point of teaching him how to settle and relax without confrontation and did not take into consideration his future working life. I am now wearing my dunce's cap. :)
 
Last edited:

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
Well this is what I am asking for help on, I have had dogs and so have my family our whole life but never working GSDs. What would you suggest when you are standing still and he grabs your calf hard and starts to pull back, he won't listen to anyone, he ignores the tea towels that get shaken around and thrown around. There doesn't seem to be any other way to stop this other than pulling him off or having him crate bound constantly unless he is out, training or in the garden.

I would say I could do the same regarding reading a dog but it's a very neutral 'attack', there doesn't seem to be any immediate reason for it. He walks up to you very calm and just snaps and they won't let go and will start to pull.

Not as much as you would of thought. Whilst he is travelling yes and of course sleeping (which we do) other than that he would either be working so out on the lead or at home as a pretty much normal dog.

I agree with more time in the crate which is exactly why we are now trying this.

And I hope I am providing you with help :) I'm writing all this for free, in my own time, you are equally free to ignore it, I just boke out what comes into my head. None of this is a criticism, I'm just encouraging you to rewire your brain/think a little bit differently/look at the situation from a different angle.
What I will say is that you are using very emotive language like 'aggression' and 'attack'. Tea towels are not as much fun to bite as soft fleshy things, a foam ball or a soft tug might be better. Dogs relax by flexing their jaws and chewing chewy things, it promotes the happy hormones.
As regards his day to day life, I do work pretty closely with police dog trainers but I appreciate that different regions may vary.

It is really hard to advise exactly what to do without seeing him and your reactions, but if it was my dog, I would pop his jaw/put my finger on his tongue, depending on how feisty he was being, shove something else in his gob, and either engage him in a game to divert him or take him by the collar and put him in his crate or out of the room, again depending on how he was being and how I was feeling. If you understand pressure and release in horses, you will know why pulling him won't help. He'll fight it. I don't know why I am unable to articulate this properly :p

Some dogs need and appreciate a compartmentalised life, it suits them. If his life has to be crate, training, garden, walkies, until he settles down, personally I don't think that is the worst thing in the world, but we can agree to disagree.


Sorry if I have clouded the issue, CC.

I was looking at it from the point of teaching him how to settle and relax without confrontation and did not take into consideration his future working life. I am now wearing my dunce's cap. :)


I'm agreeing with you but it all feeds into the same thing IYSWIM.
 

paddy555

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 December 2010
Messages
12,540
Visit site
my friends were in exactly the same position as you. They also took on a police puppy and had it for nearly a year. He was a nightmare dog compared to a normal shepherd. They had the same struggles as you are having and the dog had to be fed on kibble even though that may not have been the best for him. It was very very hard work and I think she was reduced to tears a few times. They were both police officers (not dog ones) so they had a lot of extra support just from knowing the handlers/trainers at the dog section. Even so it was a baptism of fire to train a dog from police working lines. They were told exactly what to do by the police trainers and how to handle different situations.

I would direct your questions at the police trainers. They are the ones most able to give you answers as to what they want for the dog.
It did work out alright for my friends. In fact it worked pretty well as they were given so much training in how to teach the dog various activities as the training progressed.
 

CorvusCorax

Justified & Ancient
Joined
15 January 2008
Messages
57,237
Location
Mu Mu Land
Visit site
I have a friend with a young dog of an entirely different breed who is having very similar problems and has the cuts to prove it. She’s becoming scared of her dog and I suspect that’s adding to the problem but ....I’ll be jumped on be the ‘experts’ on here but maybe you should treat this pup the same as you would do any dog instead of focusing on his breed ? He needs to be able to behave the same as any other dog around people or he will just be dangerous.


FWIW I've never referred to myself as an anything, never mind an 'expert', which I'm not, I'm just trying to help people, unlike other people who just want to leave snippy comments with no substance.
Neither my dogs nor I have anything to prove.

I'll be leaving it here OP, best of luck :) he sounds like a cracker and I'd love to see pictures of him as he grows/hear about his progress.
 

twiggy2

Well-Known Member
Joined
3 July 2013
Messages
11,401
Location
Highlands from Essex
Visit site
If I was puppy walking for the police and having problems with the puppy I would be speaking to whoever is in charge of the puppies training.
If in doubt tell them you cannot cope and send the puppy back for assessment and placing with a more experienced family.
You don't keep the dog anyway and it may need a more experienced home to turn out right for being a useful police dog.
 
Top