Guide Dogs for the Blind Association, Why?

The first thing that springs to mind is that there is probably more to this story than meets the eye (no pun intended!).
 
WorkingGSD said:
The first thing that springs to mind is that there is probably more to this story than meets the eye (no pun intended!).
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Quite. The puppy will be extremely well looked after by a experienced person and will be much closer to veterinary specialists.
All puppy walkers are aware that the puppy does not belong to them and will at some point leave them.
Guide dogs may have their faults but they do take full responsibility for their dogs and always ensure they get the best veterinary care possible.
 
I have a friend who has a Hearing Dog, and know that charities which place dogs with people have to have rigorous standards and the dog would have to be assessed as 100% fit to be a "working dog".

It might be that this dog has a problem and they therefore could not ever place it with a blind/partially sighted recipient, however they may well be able to rehome it elsewhere as there is a huge waiting list for dogs which have been in the hands of the Guide Dog association but for whatever reason cannot be allocated to a recipient, so maybe this is why they've had to recall it.
 
That's also a genetic issue that no one, especially not a producer of any sort of assistance dog, wants in their breeding programme....if the dogs parents have been used before and their pups are already working then there may be a bigger issue at play here.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
I have a friend who has a Hearing Dog, and know that charities which place dogs with people have to have rigorous standards and the dog would have to be assessed as 100% fit to be a "working dog".

It might be that this dog has a problem and they therefore could not ever place it with a blind/partially sighted recipient, however they may well be able to rehome it elsewhere as there is a huge waiting list for dogs which have been in the hands of the Guide Dog association but for whatever reason cannot be allocated to a recipient, so maybe this is why they've had to recall it.
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This pup has a serious heart problem. It will never be rehomed. It has been given 6 - 12 months to live. The puppy walkers just want to keep it until it gets pts/dies. re news story link.
 
CorvusCorax said:
That's also a genetic issue that no one, especially not a producer of any sort of assistance dog, wants in their breeding programme....if the dogs parents have been used before and their pups are already working then there may be a bigger issue at play here.
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Yes I quite agree CC a genetic issue is something no one wants, especially if the parents, or other off spring are already working as you say. It just seems unnecessary to remove the pup from the home its know since 7/8 weeks when ultimately its future is very limited and when it appears they are quite capable of caring for it during the time it has left.

Of course, as WGSD says, there could well be more to this story but it just seems Guide dogs for the Blind Assoc are being needlessly officious given these circumstances, if there isn't any more to it.
 
Hard to judge without knowing the facts. However a friend did have a problem with the GDBA adopting a "rules is rules" policy. They had 2 puppies from her as potential guide dogs, one made the grade one didn't. Despite the fact that she had made it clear from the start that she would take the pups back at any time, they rehomed the failed pup without getting in touch with her at all. :(
 
CorvusCorax said:
But it's not theirs to keep and never was...I am sure they signed a contract?
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Of course I fully understand that CC, but if Guide dogs for the blind have been happy with the care these pup walkers have previously given the association for the past 4 years, why remove this pup, who is living on borrowed time, when it is already settled with carers it knows. Just seems a bit odd to me. I could maybe understand the Assoc more if the pup were being placed with specialist people because it had a problem that needed expert care and where the dog had
an opportunity where it would/could be able to make a possible recovery. (Ahh, have I just answered my own question here? could this heart murmur/aortic defect be treatable?)
 
Think GDBA would have done better to issue a 'can't comment on individual dogs' type statement rather than what they've said which makes it sound as though they have no good reason for the action at all. I've no idea if they do, and clearly a critical statement about their volunteer family would be damaging, but what they've said doesn't create a great impression either. If I was donating to the charity I'd rather the money was spent on dogs with a prospect of helping the blind TBH.
 
I hate to say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the pup was brought back to LSpa, possibly given another vet check and then humanely put to sleep. To be honest, I would not have a problem with that. Guide Dogs for the Blind is a charity, but it still has to look to its bottom line like any other business and being heartless this pup is a drain on their resources. He is a cost, with no prospect of fulfilling the role that was destined for him or the stated aims of the charity. It is better that vets known to and working daily with the LSpa guys make the decisions on this pup rather than other vets (also probably perfectly competent but many hundreds of miles away).

The implications for their breeding program could be horrendous, so I have every sympathy with the LSpa guys wanting to get this pup and check things out and then take things forward in the best possible way for their charity.

Puppy walkers are a resource; they do not have rights over a dog, although IME a lot seems to depend on the relationship that the individual has with the representative of the centre.

I used to live locally to LSpa and knew many of their trainers in the area, plus had a stud dog or two in the past.
 
Gunnergundog, I thought they may take it back to pts too, after I wrote my last post, as I'm guessing they wouldn't want to spend anymore money on the pup. However, the pup walking family have said they would pay all vet fees if they allowed the pup to stay with them.
It seems the pup presented with a serious heart murmur when the pup walkers took it for its 12 week vaccination. The charity then had it examined by a cardiologist who confirmed the pup had severe sub aorticstenois. (which after a quick google, is a genetic condition, though may not clearly present itself in all dogs, usually life limiting and often causes sudden death, though drugs may extend life)

A very sad state of affairs for the puppy walkers and the charity :(
 
Very sad for all concerned.

Don't see why on earth GDFTB can't let the poor little creature stay with its family till the final decision has to be made.

But unfortunately IMO "animal" charities are NOT always kind or considerate, so often its more about their public image and being seen to be Doing Good, than about offering genuine compassion and an ideal solution for a difficult problem.

My guess is that they'll have the puppy back and then PTS. A crying shame when it could have finished its days happy, contented, and loved :(
 
There's a much bigger issue at stake here.

If working guide dogs have the potential to keel over suddenly then it's a legal minefield.

If this pup suddenly drops dead at whatever age and hypothetically speaking, let's say was crossing a road with their owner and it caused and accident, or whatever, think some sort of worst case scenario, and it's still under the ownership of GDFTB, and they knowingly let it happen then they'd be liable for all sorts. The pup may need to be examined and eventually PM'd by one of their own vets etc etc etc.

There's a much bigger picture here than this family and this pup.
 
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“The welfare of our dogs is of paramount importance, Edward will be looked after by one of our specialist volunteer boarders. He will be close to our experienced veterinary nurses, who can give him the full-time love, care and medical attention he will need.”


Are people reading what I'm reading?

It's clear to me that the GDBA believe that this family are too emotionally invested in this puppy to choose the right moment for him to die. The family's subsequent actions seem to prove them right. They want to monitor the pup closely and put him to sleep before there is any prospect of him suffering. I wish more owners would do the same.
 
CorvusCorax said:
There's a much bigger issue at stake here......

There's a much bigger picture here than this family and this pup.
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I'm with you on this...sorry, but the life of one pup pales into insignificance versus the greater implications of this situation. Sad though it is, and I do agree.
 
I'm a bit confused there is no chance this pup is going to be a working guide dog, how does where he lives till he dies make a difference to how they deal with any relatives that may also be at risk for the condition?
 
gunnergundog said:
I hate to say this, but I wouldn't be surprised if the pup was brought back to LSpa, possibly given another vet check and then humanely put to sleep. To be honest, I would not have a problem with that. Guide Dogs for the Blind is a charity, but it still has to look to its bottom line like any other business and being heartless this pup is a drain on their resources. He is a cost, with no prospect of fulfilling the role that was destined for him or the stated aims of the charity. It is better that vets known to and working daily with the LSpa guys make the decisions on this pup rather than other vets (also probably perfectly competent but many hundreds of miles away).

The implications for their breeding program could be horrendous, so I have every sympathy with the LSpa guys wanting to get this pup and check things out and then take things forward in the best possible way for their charity.

Puppy walkers are a resource; they do not have rights over a dog, although IME a lot seems to depend on the relationship that the individual has with the representative of the centre.

I used to live locally to LSpa and knew many of their trainers in the area, plus had a stud dog or two in the past.
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Yes they are a charity and also the charity with the most £££. I feel for the family and they have offered to pay the bill, I think if they are not going to treat the pup they should offer it to the family.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Suffering? I'm led to believe that death comes suddenly with this condition?
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Death may well come suddenly, but an inefficient circulatory system is not pain or problem free before death.

Symptoms can be nasty in humans, my husband had them with a failed aortic valve. I see no reason why it would be different for a dog.
 
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CorvusCorax said:
Suffering? I'm led to believe that death comes suddenly with this condition?
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Assuming it's similar to aortic stenosis in humans the reduced outflow from the left side of the heart will cause heart failure due to backlog pressure so pup will become oedematous (tissues swollen with fluid) which in the limbs can be painful an is debilitating, and eventually it works round, affects the right side of the heart and causes fluid build up in the lung causing them to essentially drown in their own fluid. In humans heart failure can be managed but can never be cured and isn't a pleasent way to die.

Sudden death is most likely due to a massive stroke as the turbulence caused by a defective valve encourages clot formation which from the left side of the heart has the potential to go up to the brain.

Disclaimer - this is from human physiology. Logic says the same should be true in dogs but I may be wrong :-)
 
If the puppy has SAS in the severe form...they generally aren't allowed to play, run and get excited as these are often the triggers for sudden death.
It will be on medication for its short life.
Then its either going to drop dead suddenly from the arrhythmia or stroke/start to faint from lack of blood flow/show signs of severe heart failure if its not lucky enough to pass away due to the rhythm disturbances.

None of those options sound particularily pleasent to me.

This isnt a curable disease and none of the current surgeries give a longer life then medication alone.. Its just a matter of when.

Terrible situation for everyone involved!
But imo at the end of the day the dog belongs to the charity....and they are at this point more capable of making non-emotional choices. The medication isn't particularly expensive,I doubt it has anything to do with expense. It will come down to who should make the call on when he should be pts.

The implications of this for the guide dog breeding programm are horrendous though. Its a genetic disease.
Worse the murmurs cannot always be detected early on in the pups life...and are often detected at the later puppy checks and the method of inheritance isn't testable for yet.

Its genuinely difficult to know what it the best call for the pup himself.
A short happy life with potentially only his last moments in pain or humane euthanasia before he gets to the point of dropping dead due to his disease...

It will be heartbreaking for everyone involved no matter what choice is made.
 
I take my hat off to GD they are removing as much emotion from the decision making as possible but taking back full responsibility for a dog on their care

A heart condition for any animal is not going to be fun.
The walkers are to my mind showing that they are already to emotionally involved to make a sensible decision by behaving as they are right now.
Feel sorry for all involved.
 
twiggy2 said:
I take my hat off to GD they are removing as much emotion from the decision making as possible but taking back full responsibility for a dog on their care

A heart condition for any animal is not going to be fun.
The walkers are to my mind showing that they are already to emotionally involved to make a sensible decision by behaving as they are right now.
Feel sorry for all involved.
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I agree with this 100%.
 
I appreciate and understand the GD Assoc stance on this issue. However, from what little I've read regarding Serious Aortic stenois (SAS) the pup may well go into adult hood with no knowledge itself of having the defect. It appears to be when adult hood is reached things may take a turn for the worse and where Beta Blockers will be necessary. Of the (limited) vet sites I've visited online, most confirm life will be limited to between 3 -5 years.

Thankfully scientist have now identified the gene that is responsible for the condition (especially in Newfoundlands) but not all dogs who carry the gene will be affected.

If the pup's health is compromised by this condition now, then pts is surely the only option. If the GB Assoc wish to keep the pup in its care until it starts displaying signs and then have it PTS, that is their decision too. (Although I would question if they would be doing this if the pup walking family hadn't asked to care for it instead) Of course the puppy walker family are emotionally involved (it would be very odd if they weren't) and I can also understand their wish to care for the pup themselves if they can see the GDB Assoc will not be offering any different care to pup than they will. As I said previously, it is a very sad state of affairs for all concerned.
 
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