Gundog puppies

[CrazyMare]

Hello,

This is my first foray into dogs - I'm usually in Breleding or Soapbox.

Anyway, we are potentially thinking about buying my Dad a gundog puppy, as he has a potential offer to buy into the syndicate that own the shoot, plus we run our own clay club.

As this would be our first bought dog (the last one was a stray that ran loose in Nottingham, RIP Billydog), can you please offer some guidance to us.

We have a fairly large garden, someone is at home almost all day every day, bar the odd hour here or there, as Dad works for himself. We do also have two cats.

As I say, this is a potential idea, but I would like to research it thoroughly, and as its a new thing, take the best advice I can.

So.....A) where would I find a reputable breeder of working Labs (I think that is what we would go for)
B) what should I be looking out for in type/temprement/bloodlines/evaluations (Do dogs have those? My foal does)
C) Gundog training - any good suggestions around the East Midlands

The last dog we had spent pretty much all his time with Dad, out on shoots, running, doing horses etc. We are a pretty active family so no worries on that front really.

 

[Slinkyunicorn]

Where abouts in the East Midlands do you mean?

 

[lovecharles]

hello,

i think a labrador is a good choice, or a springer.

Breeders - i don't know.

Choosing a dog or bitch. To be honest, there is not a lot of differance. Dogs are sometimes more outgoing, but then do have the 'desire' to wander looking for bitches.
Both have abilities in the hunting field. Obviously, with a bitch you have to consider the seasons.


Info

ask the breeder lots and lots of questions! they shpuld be happy to answer.
make sure you see both parents and maybe other litters. be very wary of owners who are unwilling to introduce you the the proud parents.
mkae sure the pups were ethically bred - that is bred from a bitch of suitable age (not to young not too old). all the dogs should be in a clean, homely environment, and look physically healthy, chubby, bright eyes, lively.

Good questions to ask:

Breeding coefficient - this shows how 'in-bred' a pup is. The higher the percentage, the more in-bred and the more likely hereditary diseases are. the lower the percentage the better

Estimated Breeding Values - not really sure what this is in detail, but based on the pups lineage, the charcteristics of the dog in the future and it's offspring are predicted. I can research it for you though, if you'd like more information.

Scoring - Dogs are often 'scored' on hips and elbows. This is because of hereditary dysplasia. If the puppy is scored (for one hip) a 0, they have excellent hips and are almost certian not to get dysplasia. However, should a dog score 53, steer clear! The total hip score starts at 0 (best) and 106 (worst) for both hips.
As far as i'm aware, the breed average for a lab is 15 for both hips together.
You also want to find out the sire and dams scores.

Its always a good sign when the pups are already KC registered, insured and first wormed. This is a very responsible breeder, (though i'm sure you would pay more for these pups).

As for temprement, I'd say a bold, big puppy, one that comes to you. I know the smaller quiet ones are cute and you can feel sorry for them, but a big brave puppy will probably excell as a working dog. (Not to say the small ones wouldn't but they have to have a lot of personality and guts!)

Other gundogs to consider would be:

-Springer Spaniel
-Golden Retriever
-Pointer

-Setter

And in East Midlands, no doubt take them for training to Jack Ilife. (Can PM a number if you like) He has been a gundog handler for years and is very well known on the competition and shooting circuit.

I hope this helps. Feel free to ask for more info

I could talk dogs ALL day(espcially gundogs)!

 

[lovecharles]

p.s Jack breeds aswell - more springers than labs i think.

 

[GinaB]

Labs are so ridicuously easy to work with, as all they wish to do is please

I prefer to work with bitches as I find them easier, we have had dogs previously and they were stubborn gits who thought they knew best

The two most popular lines for labs are the Drakeshead and Palgrave.

Look for those which have FTW and FTCH in their lines as this means there are proven winners.

I currently have two labs, both bitches. My black was has just retired at 10 years old and I have a 2 year old yellow bitch which has worked one season and is currently training on more difficult retrieves. Can't advise on trainers I'm afraid as we trained our own.

Also ensure parents have been hip/eye and hopefully also elbow scored as elbow issues are becoming more apparent.

 

[Ravenwood]

Love this saying.........

"A labrador is born half trained and a spaniel dies half trained"

A lab is definitely the way to go for a first gundog. I must stress though and just don't know how to stress this enough - please choose a pup whose parents have been elbow scored as well as hips and eyes - all the really good kennels are doing this now.

Buy the Shooting Times and have a look in the ad pages.

If you contact BASC - they should be able to tell you a gun dog club near you for the training but don't forget the lab won't be ready for a proper full seasons work until he is two.

In my experience blacks dont moult nearly as much as yellow ones

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I'm not into gun dogs myself, but I still can't resist saying a few things.

Yes, hip dysplasia is hereditary but sadly it is not that simple, as f.ex. MurphysMinder can give an example of, parents with good scores can get offspring with bad hip scores. And as if it wasn't enough that several factors seems to be involved in the heredity, without also f.ex. overfeeding the puppy can cause bad hips.
Breeding dogs with good hip scores are much more likely to have offspring with good hip scores but I know of dogs with quite bad hip scores that still have gotten offspring with good hip scores, it is much less likely to happen but it does happen.



Personally, due to hereditary diseases I prefer breeding with as unrelated parents as possible, some line breeding is okay but I want as low inbreeding percentage as possible. I wouldn't buy f.ex. a dog where the stud dogs granddad, is great-grandfather to the brood bitch or the other way around.



For me temperament will always be the top priority, to me it wouldn't matter if I so had the very best working gun dog in the world, if I can't live with it at home. I mean after all, I would spend more time at home with it than out hunting/working with it. If you don't like the brood bitch's temperament when you meet her, walk away. The stud dog's temperament matters but unless he lives at the stud and spends time with the puppies, the brood bitch is the one who the puppies really will spend time with and learn from.
Of course if you want a working gun dog, parents who are good working gun dogs is more likely to get offspring that can become good working gun dogs.

Have demands on the breeder you choose, don't settle with thinking "Oh but they have so and so KC papers", f.ex. puppies kept in a varied environment are usually more comfortable and relaxed with new environments.


Good luck.

 

[MurphysMinder]

love charles has made some good points, but can I just point out that a puppy cannot be hip scored. The youngest the x rays can be submitted for scoring is 12 months, so if you are buying a puppy it is the parents, grand parents etc hip scores you should be looking at. And as FLH says, to my cost I have found that good hips do not always produce good hips, but you have a far better chance of a good result than if you buy from unscored parents, or of course parents with bad hips.

 

[CrazyMare]

Thank you for all the points raised.

Can someone explain exactly what they look for when hip/elbow scoring?

As for where in the East Mids - we are near Notts, however we will travel for someone highly reccomended - we are well used to it with the horses! Dad and I are firm believers in going for the best rather than 2nd best, and if that means travelling, we will happily.

Sorry, I'm asking loads of questions - but I wouldn't sell my foal (or any future ones) to someone who couldn't prove they had researched and were competent!

 

[MurphysMinder]

Elbow scoring goes from 0 - 2 on each elbow. 0 is clear.
Hips as lovecharles stated are scored from 0 - 53 on each hip, so worst possibly score is 106. If the labrador breed average is 15 you need to be looking at dogs in the pedigree with scores below 15, and ideally even on each side, so it should show as e.g. 7:7 total 14.
Visit breeders and ask loads of questions, a good breeder should be happy to answer them. I was always glad when people asked lots of questions, if they didn't they didn't get a pup

ETS. To clarify, having re read your post, the hip and elbow scoring is carried out by the BVA. The dogs are x rayed and the plates are submitted for scoring, it is not something you have to do. What you should do though is ask to see the parents score sheets, not just accept being verbally told a score.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

To add to what MurphysMinder just explained, f.ex. the point with x-raying hips is to make sure that the femur head is well inside the "hip socket" (I hope you understand what I try to describe by that) and also that both the "hip socket" itself and the femur head has good shapes.

Examples of why a dog gets bad scores, is that the "hip socket" could be very shallow or that there is a gap between the bottom of the "hip socket" and the femur head.
A dog with 0:0 should also have an ideally shaped both "hip socket" and femur head and without any gaps between those two parts.

As far as I understand it, it is sort of the same thing they are looking for with the elbow x-rays, that the bones/parts involved in the elbow joint is well shaped and fits well together.

 

[CrazyMare]

Thank you, that is very helpful!!

As I say, we are still only considering it - we would be waiting until September to get a puppy (To coincide with Dads birthday) but I like to research and be organised.

And don't worry, just because it is for Dad's birthday doesn't make it any less serious - its also because he won't know until then if he can buy into the syndicate!!! I do appreciate though that it will be a while until he can work his dog, but my Dad is the kind of person who likes to work with an animal and progress slowly towards the goal.

 

[Lucy_Nottingham]

Hip and elbow scoring (as FLH has said) is how the joints lie, the rating that they get is achieved by measuring the angle of the bone into the socket (for hips) and the angle of the bones when flexed and extended in the elbow.

Eyes are just tested (similarly to humans, just without reading the letter board!

)

Labs are great dogs, but as all the others have said you do really need to make sure you check hips etc, and also be aware that you need to ensure they are fully fit (so 1yo at the earliest) before sending them out in the field too intensly as they have a tendency to bugger their cruciates (as do most large breed dogs! Like CALA's jumping rottie!

)

BTW when you get it I WANNA COME PLAY WITH IT!

 

[CrazyMare]

One more question - I've been browsing online, taking note of everything you say, and some say 'Hip & elbow scored clear' does that mean 0 (zero) or is that a bit of an ambigious way of avoiding the point!?

Have just remembered we have someone that shoots with us with a gorgeous, sleek and fit, female black lab - will ask him where she came from.

 

[MurphysMinder]

It could mean they have scored 0, but I would definitely recommend you ask actual scores and to see scoresheets.
Should add not actually sure if a scoresheet as such is issued for elbows, had my bitch done last month and haven't had results back yet, first time I have ever done elbows though have always scored hips.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I'm not sure, to me scored clear should equal ideal result. But I suppose that maybe scored clear could be used if the dogs have scored below the breed average?

As a member in SKK (the Swedish Kennel Klubb), I can go into SKK's homepage and check myself, because all official score results can be found in the SKK database. However since MurphysMinder said "ask to see the parents score sheets", I doubt the KC has something similar on their homepage.

 

[MurphysMinder]

Unless it has changed , the only way you could see scores via the KC was by paying a fairly expensive annual subscription to the KC registration records which listed all hip scores etc.

What a brilliant system you have in Sweden.

 

[CrazyMare]

Thank you. You have all been a great help, I have taken note of everything so far. I am sure I will think of more questions to ask and become the 'Dog Forum Numpty'.

Its acctually pretty interesting to learn about a new system - I could talk about the horses studbook in my sleep!!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I consider myself very lucky to have the kennel club I have. I can f.ex. check official show, health and mental-tests results, I can try different imaginary breeding combinations to make sure the stud dog and brood bitch I want to combine will get offspring with low inbreeding percentage etc.

I actually think I love my kennel club.

 

[Spudlet]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you. You have all been a great help, I have taken note of everything so far. I am sure I will think of more questions to ask and become the 'Dog Forum Numpty'.


[/ QUOTE ]

You can't be Dog Forum Numpty. I am Dog Forum Numpty

Sorry I don't have anything to add advice-wise (see - numpty!) but it sounds like you are going to have one very happy gundog with the life that you describe

Don't forget to put some piccies up when you bring the pup home