Gundog Training for Beginners

[Patches]

I just found this link. Dogs have to be 6 months old by the first day of the course.

Harvey will actually be 6 months exactly on the 24th April.

What do you think? Should I email them as I have no idea what Grade One actually means/involves. It does say complete beginners though but surely it would expect all the basic obedience to be in place?

It's alot of money, compared to "Dogskool", so I'd like to know that it is well spent.

http://www.thegundogclub.co.uk/Training/courses/venues/staffordshire/winkhill/SLG1_2.htm

 

[Patches]

Scrap that. It's a Saturday. Not much use as it will clash repeatedly with Pony Club Rallies.

 

[WoopsiiD]

I saw this too and am really quite tempted to take Millimoo.
The closest thing to gun dog training in Birmingham is teaching your staffy how to dig a deep hole to drop the offending weapon into before the police catch you!!!

 

[Spudlet]

I considered one of these, but decided againt it in the end. I had heard reports that having a set length of time to pass an exam at the end can feel a bit pressured, and that some trainers use methods which I personally would not feel comfortable with (scruffing etc) but that people felt they had to stay the course as they had already paid, so decided against it in the end.

I might do one of the tests one day though - the requirements are on their website somewhere but it's not the easiest to navigate I think Grade One for spaniels is pretty simple, and runs along the lines of a walk at heel on the lead, a sit and wait while the handler walks away, a recall and a marked retrieve. Could be wrong though, I can't get on the site at work and it was a while ago that I looked!

 

[Patches]

I agree, it's alot of money really and who is to say I actually will get around to going beating? I'd like to, but I'm not in any rush as he'll still be quite young even next season.

I have now found another training group.

http://www.directdogs.co.uk/tdts/tdts_welcome.html

You can work towards the Bronze, Silver and Gold Citizenship Awards. This is what I really wanted to do with Harvey through Dogskool. I might join them. They also do TV for Dogs! You never know, he might be talent scouted for a TV role!

It's honing the skills of basic training/obedience that most interest me at the moment, given the type of dog I have and their penchant for ignorance!

 

[Parkranger]

I've enrolled Archie for his grade one - I think it's good to have deadlines, means you keep up the training and I'm always up for a challenge!

Spudlet, you wouldn't have got on with Jack - he had to be scruffed sometimes to bring his adrenaline levels down!!!!

I also didn't want to do puppy classes - I find them deathly boring and this way we're both learning a new skill.....

 

[CorvusCorax]

Can I just ask what role scruffing plays in gundog training?
Just interested.

My dog is huge and the only time I have ever scruffed him was to prevent an accident with a scrambler motorcycle, it was that or lots of broken limbs, potential puncture wounds and a squashed dog.
I really like Cesar Millan but I hate seeing people dump their dogs on the ground upside down willy nilly for things that are much easier to solve (not talking about you OP, friend's dad has their wee puppy terrified because he thinks that's what you do with them )

 

[kirstyhen]

Can I just ask what role scruffing plays in gundog training?
Just interested.

Personally I don't think what goes on in Gundog training is actually scruffing.

It is often done when teaching the stay. Dog put in stay, moves, handler picks it up by scruff and puts it back in place.

I can't think of a time when (what is IMO) true scruffing (pinning to ground by scruff) would be used.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Ah, I see, cheers. Seen that done before! (Just recalling a dog who was in the down in front, but was up on his back legs ready to go for the re-attack, but of course the handler wasn't looking behind him so couldn't see, clever dog )

 

[kirstyhen]

It's honing the skills of basic training/obedience that most interest me at the moment, given the type of dog I have and their penchant for ignorance!

TBH it's the basics that count the most at his age! As long as he is constantly learning he will never be at an age when you can't teach him the more advanced commands.
The other thing I feel is that the Gundog Grades 'could' lull you into a false sense of security. From what I can see is they seem quite sterile, retrieving dummies etc, Someone might get to grade 4 and feel their dog is ready to go out beating, dog gets out on a shoot, goes WAAAAAYHEEEEY BIRRRRRRRRRRRRRDIEEEEEEESSSSSSSS, and boggers off!
So perhaps stick with the basics until you are ready and then look for a more 'practical' trainer, someone with a Rabbit Pen etc.

But I can;t say I know much about the Gundog Club Grades, so for all I know they might offer that! It's more of a case of the blind leading the sectioned with me and Otto

 

[Parkranger]

The grade 1 is teaching the basics - recall, training to whistle, stay etc......!

 

[kirstyhen]

I know, but Patches was asking whether it would be better to do the Gundog Club Grade One classes (which are more expensive) or stick with a General Dog Class.
So as both teach the basics but one costs more, I was saying you may as well stick with the cheaper, more general class as it basically teaching the same thing.

 

[Parkranger]

ahhhhhh - with you now!

I was going to do a normal puppy class but they're so boring....well the ones I've been to are.....

 

[soloabe]

They may be boring but they are the best base for a new dog.

 

[Patches]

I know, but Patches was asking whether it would be better to do the Gundog Club Grade One classes (which are more expensive) or stick with a General Dog Class.
So as both teach the basics but one costs more, I was saying you may as well stick with the cheaper, more general class as it basically teaching the same thing.

That's exactly what I was asking. Thanks Henny.

With this other dog training group, they do work towards the Good Citizen Awards. Whilst I know having a certificate isn't the bee all and end all (in reference to the post on the subject of these awards) I do think it gives us a goal for progression. You could also, theoretically, be assessed and pass the Bronze on Day One. She will not hold you back if she thinks your dog is too advanced from the offset.

All I currently have, from the place we've just "graduated" is a certificate to say I attended Puppy/Beginner Class and achieved a "pass" for the course. There was no breakdown to say where we collected/lost marks etc or any opportunity to go back and redo the "evaluation", all of which you can do when you're assessed for the KC Citizenship Awards.

For example, I want to go from teaching commands on the lead to commands at a distance - with the distractions of being in a new place with lots of other dogs around. All these things are done with the new group, not with the one we've just finished with. To me, this is what I was referring to when I said I wanted to progress and hone our basic obedience skills.

I did think that registering for gundog training classes, regardless of Harvey's young age, might be a bit like walking before we can crawl until we've progressed through the other stages of basic obedience.

If I can pay £50 for a ten week course....why pay £185 for a 7 weeks of training and a compulsory test at the end of it? What if we struggle with a certain area and are rushed into taking a test that we might not be ready for?

I think I will, for now, stick with the basic classes. I am sure the local shoot would be more than willing to give me some pointers, with Harvey on a lead/line initially so long as they know he is well mannered and responsive to all of the basic obedience commands.

 

[Spudlet]

Hen, I can only go on what I was told - let's just say the course was not recommended to me! Fortunately I'm happy with the trainer I have now. I agree re the sterility, I was looking through all the grades and at no point did game ever seemed to be mentioned which seemed a bit odd.

Re scruffing - I've done it, before I knew better ways. I wouldn't do it now though unless in a life or death situation - and frankly I'm more than capable of restraining Henry without the need to resort to such tactics, he's not exactly a tank! I am also more than capable of calming him from his mad moments without the need to touch him, much less pin him down.

 

[Patches]

You handle game with the one I put a link to. It mentions something about not being able to progress pass a certain stage if you're not prepared to handle dead game.

Would it be possible to get "on the job" training, so to speak, through the local shoot? What would they expect a Spaniel to be able to do if you were going to help with beating? Last time my ex-hubby went with Jasper he did most of the work with a stick at the undergrowth.

Not sure how the shoot that is local to where I now live operates but the old chap is currently training up his rescue Springer and did tell me he would welcome "taking us under his wing" and didn't even raise an eyebrow when I said Harvey was a show cocker.

 

[FestiveSpirit]

Can I just ask what role scruffing plays in gundog training?
Just interested.

My dog is huge and the only time I have ever scruffed him was to prevent an accident with a scrambler motorcycle, it was that or lots of broken limbs, potential puncture wounds and a squashed dog.
I really like Cesar Millan but I hate seeing people dump their dogs on the ground upside down willy nilly for things that are much easier to solve (not talking about you OP, friend's dad has their wee puppy terrified because he thinks that's what you do with them )

Surely no-one in their right mind uses that technique any more, unless it is an emergency like CC has described I thought we had got passed the days when people thought that was the right thing to do

 

[kirstyhen]

Well, a beating dog that doesn't retrieve is no bad thing TBH, just means they are less likely to inccur the wrath of the Pickers-Up

If Harvey has the basics, the Stop and Recall whistle being the most important, and maybe some work in a rabbit pen or on scent heavy ground can be fairly useful, (it can be very unsettling when your dogs go WAAAAAAAAAAAHOOOOOO and heads for the next county because there is soooooo much scent!) then 'on the job' training is more than feasable!
Go out alone a few times, get used to where you have to be without the worry of the dog, then take him on the lead a few times. For the next step it's really important to be friendly with someone who knows what they are doing - find out when you can let him off without causing to much damage if he does decide to stop listening!
With Otto it was at the end of the day, working through the cover behind the guns. It just so happened that he picked a bird that had been missed, but that wasn't the aim!

To me, the ideal beating dog would sweep the ground say 2/3 metres (depending on the number of beaters and how spaced out they are) either side and in front of you, they would look in any particularly thick bits of cover that a beater can't get into. When they flush a bird they should stop and wait to be allowed to carry on. They should require little handling, but should be able to take direction if required (unlike Otto who requires me to be on him every second!)
In reality the amount of retrieving they do is very small if any, some shoots may require you to sweep the area after the drive has ended looking for shot game, it just depends on how many pickers-up/peg dogs they have.

 

[Patches]

It's the They should require little handling, but should be able to take direction if required which I think we'll have problems with. He is a blooming Cocker Spaniel, show bred at that, after all!

I am somewhat slightly worried, genuinely, about "switching on" his gundog nose. He is very into the scent on our farm as it's full of rabbits, badgers, foxes, geese, ducks and the like. You can tell he finds a scent as he starts moving around in circles etc following it...or looking for it if he's lost it.

Jasper used to recall perfectly until he'd been beating with my ex-hubby. After our divorce he stopped going obviously. When I met Duncan and moved to the farm his recall was lost....never to return. The smells on the farmland simply overwhelmed him. You could tell he was after something but his selective deafness was mind numbing! In the garden, around the house etc he would come the second you asked for him. Over the farm - forget it. The smells were far more interesting then we were. He wasn't even interested in our other dog....nose down and off! That was it.

What are the chances that the same will happen to Harvey if I scratch beneath the surface and turn his brain from show to working? At the moment I am simply loving having a Cocker that recalls.

 

[kirstyhen]

As long as he doesn't run riot you shouldn't have a problem. If anything he'll begin to associate you with finding birdies and he'll want to stick around even more! It's certainly the case with Otto, the more times I tell him to look into cover and something pops out the other side, the more he seems to think I am the person to be with if he wants to find something! It's got to the point now that he is looking at me for direction without me getting his attention first!
The They should require little handling, but should be able to take direction if required is the ideal, it doesn't mean Harvey has to be that way straight away! Some dogs are born innately knowing how to work (My Mum's cocker is a perfect example of it!) and just need fine tuning, whereas some need it drilling into them until it is second nature (Otto falls more into this category!)
Just introduce him slowly, make sure you keep his focus and be prepared to take a step back if necessary and I don't think you'll have a problem. Not only that but you are probably so wary of losing his recall that you'll spot the problem before it takes hold.

 

[sywell]

I used the breed socitiety for how to train , the ability of the dog is what it is about. The training to the gun and control of the dog is the basic training. I worked on a shoot and did competitions with a GSP. When I went picking up to start with the Keeper with spaniels and labradors look at my GSP with suspicion, after 3 years when he saw how superior the GSP was in picking up ducks from the reeds and also was a strong long swimmer he came up to me and said "and what kind of dog did you say that was". Long training on retrieving and water on your own is the only way to succeed as the dog can concentrate better with no distractions

 

[Parkranger]

Well that's a bit worrying if people have been told the gundog classes aren't great!

Agree that normal puppy classes are a good idea for a puppy but I guess I can only go by my own experiences. The class I went to was in a hall and crammed with dogs - when do you ever go for a walk in a hall? Jack was perfect and star pupil but the minute eveyrone went out for a fag at breaktime he forgot it all ;-)

Let us know how you get on patches as I'd be interested to see whether I'm making a terrible mistake!

With regards to scruffing, either I'm calling it something else but I fail to see how grabbing your dog by the scruff of it's neck (ie the flabby bit of skin) if it's misbehaving is cruel? It's not something I'd do every day but surely it's far from cruel - prepared to be educated otherwise!

 

[spaniel]

PR I think the scruffing referred to is the act of grabbing the scruff and then flipping the dog over and pinning it down rather than just grabbing a quick handful of skin to keep hold of an errant pup. I may be wrong.

 

[Parkranger]

OK, but I've employed that technique with a JR that got itself into a complete tizz - it was the only way to bring the adrenaline levels down....and is exactly what it's mum would do? OK I didn't body slam him into the floor but he was scruffed and pinned down.....

 

[spaniel]

Yep Im as confused as you are to be honest. Ive pinned dogs down in the past, not brutal but not allowed to move until calm. I didnt class it as cruel or unacceptable but as I say, this may not be whats being referred to.

Please can someone clarify??

 

[JACQSZOO]

I want to take Pip beating, but at 2 1/2 I worry that we have left it too late for training. She has pretty good recall most of the time but it certainly isn't 100%, esp. if she's on a scent. Do you think its worth a try or will I just make an idiot of myself?

 

[Parkranger]

Archie is 18 months and I'm going to have a crack with him!

 

[JACQSZOO]

Archie is 18 months and I'm going to have a crack with him!

How are you going about it? My landlord shoots and runs a shoot and is happy for us to take Pip with us so between now and when the season starts I'd like to get some training in but I don't know where or how.

 

[Parkranger]

I just joined the gundog club.....he may be totally rubbish but now miraulously has a recall (think it's because his appetite is back so he comes for treats.....) and I think it would be fun for both of us.

The beginner classes are to help with recall, stay etc - which are things you'd learn in a normal puppy class and I spoke with the secretary for a bit as I was worried that we didn't have enough basic training....