Gundog Training Tip Please

[Haydn]

Although I don't shoot I am training Fynn as a gundog, it keeps his mind and body active.

However I have a bit of a problem with his hunting. He is supposed to weave back and forth scenting into the wind but when I try to send him out, if he can't smell anything immediately he just looks at me waving my arms as though I'm mad (and I probably am!) and won't go. If he picks up a scent he will follow it. I have hidden dummies in the field and he will search them out, weaving up the wind, if there is a hare/bird in the grass he will follow that scent but if there isn't something to excite him he just can't be bothered.

Have any of you got tips to get him foraging.

 

[Alec Swan]

I'm assuming that your dog's a Springer, would I be right? In your shoes, I'd have the dog view hunting as a privilege, rather than a right. If you have, say half hour sessions (walks), I'd restrict all of your outings to basic heal work, OFF the lead, with short bursts of hunting permitted, perhaps 4 or 5 minutes (or even less), then stop him and bring him back in to heal to continue the walk.

If the above suggestion works, then you may find that you have to extend the hunting stints to prevent him from boiling over! It does sound as though your dog's becoming a bit bored, and generally when this happens, denying them their supposed ability, seems to renew their interest.

Alec.

 

[northernnewfiediva]

Um, I would think my husband would say - he trains lots of spaniels - that you need him to make the connection between the dummy and hand signals. ie start off with getting him to sit while you throw the dummy. He needs to pay attention to you and when you send him off to get the dummy saying 'go on' or whatever, use your hand/arm to direct him. Eventually he should just need the hand/arm signal to move in the direction you want. You can use the whistle to get his attention to change direction, eventually dropping the sound and just using hand signals. You can then build up to asking him to go one side to the other, regularly finding something wonderful to encourage him. When he knows the game., he will hunt consistently side to side. Husband's usual answer to everything gundoggy is get back to basics, establish stop whistle, come back command and break it all down into small steps. Don't run before they can walk and get everything firmly bedded in. Our dogs also know teh difference between 'off duty' walking and 'working' walking.
He uses 'gundogs - their learning chain' as his book of choice for people who want to work spaniels. Hope it helps but I am sure there are many more experienced people here with more advice.

 

[Haydn]

OOPs sorry Fynn is a HPR, vizsla.

 

[Alec Swan]

The most straight forward dogs to train, are those which are 'single purpose', Retrievers or English Pointers, for instance. The next which will present greater challenges are those which have a cross purpose, in that they hunt and retrieve, because the two disciplines oppose each other. The most complex to train are the HPRs because they have three opposing factors to the 'trained dog'. Understandably perhaps, most HPRs are used for one single purpose only, be it hunting (and so) pointing, or retrieving. There are very few HPRs which combine the three aspects of their breed successfully.

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

Dog training is mostly "commonsense" but it does require a change of attitude!

If I took you into my garden and sat back expecting you to search my small lawn without any prompting, would you do it? Obviously not! On the other hand, if I explained that I had had my coin collection out on the garden table and has accidentally dropped a gold sovereign and could you help me find it, would that change your attitude?

In other words, don't expect a dog to hunt for something when it's experience tells it there isn't anything out there worth hunting! "Experts" will tell you I'm wrong, but you can initially encourage a dog to hunt by throwing a treat as Northern suggests you do with the dummy. Make it quite clear where you have thrown the treat so the dog can see it. The next stage is to get the dog to follow the direction of your throw, i.e. to follow the direction you are pointing. This is not as easy as it sounds and you may actually have to lead the dog's nose to the now out of sight treat. Once the dog realises you are trying to help it, you can introduce more clues, even verbal comands like 'up', 'down', etc. though 'left' and 'right' might be demanding too much of the dog's intelligence! Dogs pay more attention to body language than words, so hand signals are the way to go.

Teaching to hunt and point requires the same level of logic. Why should the dog hunt, let alone point, if there is nothing out there to find? Pigeons are great for this though do appreciate that they won't flush like game and a keen dog can run in and grab them (so you've taught the dog to run in -- NOT what is required!). Work the dog on a lead or line so you can prevent this. Pigeons won't just obligingly sit there waiting to be flushed or pointed. They need to be 'dizzied'. That is achieved by taking the bird gently in your two hands, putting it's head under it's wing, and rocking it from side to side. Easiest to undersand if someone shows you. This will send it into an hypnotic-like state and it can be placed in long tussocky grass where it will stay until woken up. Slowly bring your dog up wind until you notice it scent the pigeon, then gently poke the pigeon with a long stick so it wakes up and flies off. Hold the dog steady. Repeat this exercise a few times in different locations and the dog will learn to associate the scent with the bird and start to hunt and point. When you move onto wild birds, work the dog on broods or on pairs intent on courtship or you'll just frustrate your dog as game repeatedly flushes out of range of his nose. Training pointing dogs is very very easy if you get it right. Teach them the wrong things and you wil have problems. Get yourself a good book. I recommend "Pointers and Setters" written by Derry Argue and published by Swan Hill Limited, but I can't think why!

 

[Haydn]

The most complex to train are the HPRs because they have three opposing factors to the 'trained dog'.

If it were 'easy' then unless I wanted to work the dog, it wouldn't be challenging and fun to do. I find it amazing when Fynn picks up a scent, follows it and 'points' (if only for a few seconds before he rushes in and flushes it). It is also great when he retrieves a thrown dummy (land and water). He loves searching for a hidden dummy and retrieving to my hand.

Understandably perhaps, most HPRs are used for one single purpose only, be it hunting (and so) pointing, or retrieving. There are very few HPRs which combine the three aspects of their breed successfully.

I find this a little counter-intuitive, Vizsla's, Weimaraner's, etc. have bred as hunt, point, retrieve dogs for many years and are some of the most popular hunt companion dogs in the USA and on the continent. Surely if the HPR breeds didn't perform all their 'duties' successfully hunters wouldn't use them and they would have died out as a working breed long ago or aspects of their hunt, point, retrieve bred out to leave HR or just R.

 

[Haydn]

Dry rot- thanks for the full reply, I am learning that Fynn is cleverer than me, his nose tells him whether it's worth bothering running about chasing shadows The trouble is for our grade 3 gundog award he has to go out and hunt an (empty) field and he just can't see the point of it, hence asking for tips.

 

[Alec Swan]

Haydn; Your opening post spoke of a very basic and novice like approach. Your further posts have now explained a great deal more! If you are achieving the three separate though linked disciplines with an HPR, then you are in a minority, and one which is to be applauded! Those who can expand on the three aspects, and achieve success with the HPRs, have my respect. It isn't as easy as books would have us think, is it?

Just to clarify, as I think that I may not have explained myself clearly; The reason why 'most' people use the HPRs for one singular purpose only, is because that's the level of their ability. (owners not the dogs!).

Considering your opening post, and a further thought for you, all so often when dogs are working totally dry ground, they will conserve their efforts and energies by appearing to show a total disinterest. It makes sense when we think about it. I'd bet when there is a scent of game in front of your dog, then he suddenly appears to acquire an 'On' switch. If I'm right, then I wouldn't worry about it.

Alec.

 

[Haydn]

Alec this the problem with bulletin boards, you have to be clear (the written word is so clumsy) and you need to be fairly brief (no-one reads 'War and Peace') so inevitably my question is going to leave out loads of relevant stuff, which the poster (me) assumes the replier (you) should be able to fill in.

Fynn has passed his grade 1 and 2 gundog club assessments, but grade 3 is much more about ranging and hunting which over sterile ground he's not going to be interested in doing, and if he doesn't he won't pass, hence the question.

I think you are right, where a spaniel will hunt for the joy of hunting, a HPR needs 'something' to trigger the instinct, certainly Fynn works better in the rough where he can't see far and the smells don't travel as much.

 

[planete]

Total ignoramus question. Why would anybody insult a dog's intelligence by asking him to do a task he knows is pointless, i.e. searching an area he knows is empty? If I was the dog I would start having doubts about my owner's sanity. (But I only own lurchers so probably not qualified to comment!)

 

[gunnergundog]

Total ignoramus question. Why would anybody insult a dog's intelligence by asking him to do a task he knows is pointless, i.e. searching an area he knows is empty? If I was the dog I would start having doubts about my owner's sanity. (But I only own lurchers so probably not qualified to comment!)

Precisely!!

This is why my dogs work....they don't do FTs, KC gundog certificates, gundog club exams or owt else other than their job of work.

Yes, a dog can be trained to search a sterile area and become a clockwork mouse quartering from the hedgerow on one side of a field to the hedgerow on t'other side for instance. Indeed, Brander advocates teaching quartering by enlisting the aid of helpers walking on either side of a field. Not how I do it, but who am I to argue.

I have one naiive youngster at the moment who would probably do the above exercise; the rest are far too knowing. They are all working bred with a strong hunt ethic and I trust their noses. Traditionally, it's always been the R in HPR that was the weak link; unfortunately they are becoming increasingly popular as pets and breeders are breeding out the H, making them a shadow of what they should be in my opinion.

 

[Dry Rot]

Dry rot- thanks for the full reply, I am learning that Fynn is cleverer than me, his nose tells him whether it's worth bothering running about chasing shadows The trouble is for our grade 3 gundog award he has to go out and hunt an (empty) field and he just can't see the point of it, hence asking for tips.

How does your dog know there is nothing out there if it doesn't look? Answer, because it has been deceived by you in the past. Commonsense answer: Don't work a young dog unless you know it has a reasonable chance of finding game. Don't expect it to learn to point if the game flushes before it can get close enough to be confident that it has found.

 

[Alec Swan]

^^^^ Another excellent post D_R.

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

^^^^ Another excellent post D_R.

Alec.

BBC were out filming "One Man and His Dog". They wanted a few extra shots of the champion dog working. So, his handler sent the dog up the field to gather a non-existent flock of sheep. They got their shot, but like all cameramen, this was not enough. Could he do it again? The performance was repeated with a change of camera position. The dog duly obliged. They wanted a third run. The dog looked at his handler with an expression that clearly stated, "Do you think I am effing stupid?". That was it. He was not going to be made a fool of a third time. He knew as well as anyone that there were no sheep! Anyone who has trained a few dogs knows that. Sometimes I am not sure I have as much patience as that dog.

 

[Alec Swan]

…….. Pigeons are great for this though do appreciate that they won't flush like game and a keen dog can run in and grab them (so you've taught the dog to run in -- NOT what is required!). Work the dog on a lead or line so you can prevent this. Pigeons won't just obligingly sit there waiting to be flushed or pointed. They need to be 'dizzied'. That is achieved by ……..

The up-to-date and modern Trainers (unlike the Argues and the Swans!), tend to keep a garden shed of domesticated pigeons which have their freedom, and a couple are taken, and placed in a small 'traps' (about the size of a fairly large brick), and it's dug in to the ground, and as the dog closes with the hidden bird, or at the opportune moment, the Trainer via a hand held 'remote' presses his button, the sprung lid flies open, and off goes Mr. Pigeon. It's a way of having the dog trust the handler that there's a point to what they're doing!

I've seen the system used to great effect, though it would be a bit of a palaver for those of us who no longer train dogs in any numbers.

Alec.

 

[Dry Rot]

The up-to-date and modern Trainers (unlike the Argues and the Swans!), tend to keep a garden shed of domesticated pigeons which have their freedom, and a couple are taken, and placed in a small 'traps' (about the size of a fairly large brick), and it's dug in to the ground, and as the dog closes with the hidden bird, or at the opportune moment, the Trainer via a hand held 'remote' presses his button, the sprung lid flies open, and off goes Mr. Pigeon. It's a way of having the dog trust the handler that there's a point to what they're doing!

I've seen the system used to great effect, though it would be a bit of a palaver for those of us who no longer train dogs in any numbers.

Alec.

American Bob White quail are the answer for dog training. They are pure magic! Game birds in miniature that fly like bumble bees and have a strong coveying instinct so after being flushed, they wil fly back home to rejoin the covey via a funnel entrance to their pen, ready to be used again...and again! Unlike Jap quail, which are poor flyers, Bob White can be flock mated and they are reasonably tough. The Americans breed them commercially for their 'hunting preserves' and for pro dog trainers. Their Achilles heel is Blackhead and the medication Emtryl is now banned, but medication for pigeon pox will work, so no problem. The trouble is the Americans do not believe there is life beyond their shores and finding one that will export hatching eggs is a problem. On paper, it is easy enough.

This site explains it quite well:

http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/training-with-bobwhite-quail/

 

[Haydn]

American Bob White quail are the answer for dog training. They are pure magic! Game birds in miniature that fly like bumble bees and have a strong coveying instinct so after being flushed, they wil fly back home to rejoin the covey via a funnel entrance to their pen, ready to be used again...and again! Unlike Jap quail, which are poor flyers, Bob White can be flock mated and they are reasonably tough. The Americans breed them commercially for their 'hunting preserves' and for pro dog trainers. Their Achilles heel is Blackhead and the medication Emtryl is now banned, but medication for pigeon pox will work, so no problem. The trouble is the Americans do not believe there is life beyond their shores and finding one that will export hatching eggs is a problem. On paper, it is easy enough.

This site explains it quite well:

http://northwoodsbirddogs.com/training-with-bobwhite-quail/

Isn't it illegal to release non-native species without a licence (I realise in theory you are hoping they will return home) I seem to have read recently about a quail farmer who is breeding (I think) Japanese quail and has to keep them secure to stop accidental introduction into the UK.

 

[spacefaer]

Last lot of quail my OH bred were taken by a pine marten who dragged them headfirst through the corrugations of the tin roof. Sadly, he only took the half of the bird that fitted through the gap. Bit of quail carnage.

Another basic question for you, OP - are you considering the wind direction when asking your dog to quarter? Upwind/downwind - it makes a difference to the dog and its nose......

 

[Clodagh]

Thinking about what has been said above, could you not only train him to quarter where there is at least a good likelihood of scent and therefore reward, don't train him on bare fields until he goes for the test, where like the collie in the example, he can be duped into looking?
I went to watch some people training their trialling labs the other night, it was fascinating and deeply impressive, but I decided having a dog that can mark a bird and think for itself about wind direction and so on would make life a lot easier. The triallers don't seem to want a dog that thinks, it sounds the same for HPR.

 

[Clodagh]

Total ignoramus question. Why would anybody insult a dog's intelligence by asking him to do a task he knows is pointless, i.e. searching an area he knows is empty? If I was the dog I would start having doubts about my owner's sanity. (But I only own lurchers so probably not qualified to comment!)

I also have a lurcher and if I asked her to hunt a field that she knew held nothing she would give me that superior look that only a long dog can truly master. And they are supposed to be thick!

 

[Thistle]

I also have a lurcher and if I asked her to hunt a field that she knew held nothing she would give me that superior look that only a long dog can truly master. And they are supposed to be thick!

My old blue lurcher was highly intelligent, I taught him to hunt and retrieve to hand, should have done 'fastest retrieve' with him, could easily beat the 'gundogs' on pure speed.

 

[Clodagh]

They should be able to retrive to hand, but it must be hard to teach them. Sash did a bit when we first got her but the terriers kept mugging her so she got sly about it.

 

[Thistle]

They should be able to retrive to hand, but it must be hard to teach them. Sash did a bit when we first got her but the terriers kept mugging her so she got sly about it.

We had Zak when the kids were young, I didn't always have time to walk him so I used a tennis ball flinger in the garden, he would retrieve repeatedly for 15-20 mins then sleep for hours.