Gutted!!! (sorry, its a long one!)

Both.
If the dog is unmuzzled, the dog which has already killed twice is not going to be scared of a few flying hooves and horns and will get a few bites in.
If the dog is muzzled and cannot defend itself OR attack, the drive will be heightened and it could go even madder next time.
JMO though :)
 
whilst they are really good ideas Im not sure trying to re-train him would be worth it as if I took him back I wouldnt let him off the lead anyway, also by nature he is...plucky?!! I think he would revert back!! It is especially frustrating as I taught him as a puppy not to even look at sheep and used to walk through fields of them with him off the lead :(
 
CaveCanem said:
Both.
If the dog is unmuzzled, the dog which has already killed twice is not going to be scared of a few flying hooves and horns and will get a few bites in.
If the dog is muzzled and cannot defend itself OR attack, the drive will be heightened and it could go even madder next time.
JMO though :)
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Sorry have to ask have you ever seen a ram/sheep and a dog in that situation? That sounds really abrupt but its a genuine question!
 
Putting a dog that had shown an unhealthy interest in sheep is a common ploy used by kennel huntsman, any dog/hound which has had that kind of encounter soons see the errors of his ways. The ops dog has killed 2 sheep in different incidents so I would in honesty not trust him not to do it again given the opportunity.

Op you have a massive responsibility to ensure this dog never does this again, if it was your sheep it then went on to kill you would be none too happy to know he has done it twice before. If you cant adjust your lifestyle to fit in with dog or find it a suitable home which dosnt include idiots then perhaps the best thing is to pts. Otherwise its only a matter of time before someone shoots him.
 
Ok I just had to ask because I've never seen a sheep use it's feet against a dog!! Do you know what type of sheep it was?

Anyway mine certainly wouldn't and dont, my ram has no horns either. My ram smashes skulls with his head lol it's a little more impressive than "a few flying hooves and horns". I think some people don't really credit a 225lb ram with quite the respect it deserves.

OP If you are going to have the dog back and you'd like to make the journey to Wales, you can come and try it here. I am no dog trainer, I don't profess to know what will always work or not all I can say is I have tried it and it has worked, my dogs hadn't managed to kill yet so you can decide yourself whether the offer holds any use for you or whether you only want to do something thats helped a dog who has killed. But at least you could see in an environment where it's safe to find out? All it might do is help, but any actual help is worth it considering the alternative he faces.
 
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Scottish blackface. Not small. And yes, I have got on the wrong side of them myself :p But I keep adding and shall add again - I have no doubt it has worked with your dogs and possibly many others but this dog has killed twice, that's my issue.


That's a very kind offer :)
 
Well I feel the method is worth some credence seeing as it's how the generations of sheep farming people around here solve their dog vs sheep problems and fwiw it's not always with pups, sometimes they will have older dogs in to do it with. And after all, these are the people who wouldn't bother mucking around if the method didn't work - its THEIR livelyhood.

I'm not saying that means you'll be able to skip naked through sheep but it may well be a useful addition to other training.
 
Yes, and it is a big method here too, I never said it had no credence, as mentioned, I live in the middle of sheep country, I am not a sheep noob :p (Wales isn't alone in being Sheep Central :p :))
Having said that, a dog around here, having killed, would not live to get the chance.
 
We're not big shooters around here oddly enough, which is odd because the farmers are blooming fierce! We don't need shotguns cause if you believe the hype we're out with the sheep all the time ;)
 
Right, I think we should stop before the poor OP has to invest in some eye bleach :o :o :o we'll all sleep well tonight, anyway!!

Apologies OP, in all seriousness, do what suits the dog and your capabilities and hope you get him sorted.
 
Hi Amy-b,
Plenty of people have dogs that can't be let off lead except in confined spaces — I had one myself that used to go completely cloth-eared in the presence of rabbits and so had to be walked on a long lead at all times.
I feel sure there is a home out there for your dog where he will not be put in the sort of temptation he cannot resist.
Why not talk to your vet or to one of the rehoming charities?
 
If you are looking to wear out a terrier see if you can get him interested in balls and throwers. I will not let my oldest sbt off lead as every now and the she will chase. Never met sheep and not putting it to the test, so she gets to race around our fields chasing the ball and the normal walk in the woods on lead. Also brilliant for middle staff who has elbow displaysia as he chooses how much he wants to do ( won't come out for normal walks). This does really help wearing out my exuberant staffords.. Only one not interested is the youngest but she can go off lead so not a problem!
 
I hope you do manage to find him a suitable home OP as it does seem a shame to PTS a dog who is healthy but just has an unhealthy appetite for sheep! I certainly think to rehome to an urban home would be the better option for him. There is one in our Dogs Trust who they say needs to be rehomed to a town/city home as she has chased sheep (they didn't divulge whether she'd killed) and had even managed to escaped the house and buggered off after sheep.

I have to desensitise my new dog to sheep at some point - can't remember how we've done it with previous ones. One time I do recall though is our old dog (who never chased sheep) somehow deciding to chase a sheep in our field - I think it was because our other dog an her got the 'pack mentality' thing. Cue me hurtling down the field after them (shouting a few obscenities) and managing to grab them just as they got the sheep in a load of brambles. my those dogs got the biggest b*llocking they'd ever know. Funnily they never chased a sheep again though! As said, different things work with different dogs.

I would say, as a precaution I'd muzzle this dog if I ever did have it off the lead. However, a farmer cannot see whether a dog is muzzled when he sees it flying across the field after his sheep and even a dog just chasing sheep can cause them to die or to abort lambs.

I really hope you manage to find a solution
 
Just a thought and I have no idea where you live OP, but a home near the seaside where he was only walked along the beach would be great - probably not so easy to find that sort of home though.

What an awful dilemma for you, yes you could put him in with a ewe (take her lamb out of the pen when you put the dog in) but to be frank, now he has killed two I don't think you could ever trust him again.

I hope you manage to find another home for him xx
 
Would it be possible to rehome him to a low level agility home? someone who wants to take it up perhaps? his energy could be put to good use and he would get the exercise in a (relatively) controlled and penned in environment and could stay on a lead the rest of the time. I have no idea how many homes like that there are out there but perhaps you could advertise?
 
Thanks for everybody's well wishes and suggestions. some really good ones! :)

The problem with agility is he used to be dog aggressive and even though he is fine now, I wouldn't trust him off the lead in a high tension environment like that, he still needs watching and seems to not like certain dogs (no particular type,breed or sex) but with the dogs all yapping im am sure he would go for one.
real shame though because I have often thought he would really suit agility he is so clever and quick. (he mopes when he is muzzled so wouldn't comply!!!) they even started holding dog agility on my yard!! :(

thanks everybody, really appreciate your ideas,feeling much more positive about it today!! :)
 
I have helped a lot of people with their dogs that have been chasing sheep and the worse to stop are the terriers!
In a lot of cases the ewe and lamb will sort a dog out but some dogs are bright enough to realise that a ewe in a stable is very different to sheep in a field.

I would certainly do two things if this dog was brought to me. The first would be to make sure the dog is wet and use an E collar turned up on full. I would let the dog go for the sheep in a small enclosed area and he would get the belt of his life.
The other thing I would do if he had killed a sheep would be that I would have tied him to that sheep and left him there for several days. Just as I have tied a dead chicken to a chicken killing dog and left it around their necks for several days.

It might seem harsh but what he is doing is harsher on the sheep. If all failed I would not rehome but would have PTS.

I know that in the politically correct world all should be roses and training done with the softest of touch but, I have seen some dogs given a real beating for doing something like this and I do not mean a whack or two, it has worked when administered correctly.
 
In a desperate situation desperate measures are called for, better a dog gets a bloody good hiding if it stops them disemboweling a sheep.

My dogs know Im boss but I dont rough house them but in this instance I think better a good hiding than a bullet.
 
Ostrich said:
Good god, I thought this sort of attitude had gone out with the Ark :o I am so glad that the vast majority of people are more enlightened nowadays :(
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Would you rather they didn't try to cure it then?
A dog that's already killed twice will be a hard nut to crack; being all kind and loving won't get you anywhere, it would be a total waste of time even trying that way. A dog needs to fear reprisals when it does something like that, no other way would get through to it which could/would induce a cure for this and a terrier is usually very set in its ways once it's learnt to do something, especially something bad as they're usually as hard as nails.

Agree with Fox49, it needs sorting properly once and for all, not be back at square one next month again because you weren't tough enough on it.
 
Ostrich in the right hands they are a valuable tool, wouldnt use it myself as timing is crucial and I wouldnt trust myself to get it right.

My daughters first pony who was laminitic was on restricted turnout with a grazing muzzle and his turnout paddock had electric fencing connected to the mains(legal). This pony would just put his head down and go straight through it so one day I poured buckets of water over him and turned him out. He went straight to the fencer got hell of a shock and turned back and never got out again. This pony was on the point of being pts if he ever got laminitis again so desperate measures were called for.
 
Ostrich said:
Of course not. I would rehome the dog to someone who wasnt stupid enough to let it off the lead!
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But that's just passing the buck to someone else to take responsibility and it's already been done once with disastrous consequences because they (or someone exercising the dog for them) forgot and let it off which is only too easy to do or think the dog is cured; where does it end, when it's been shot by an irate farmer?
 
Ostrich said:
I guess you think that abusing the use of an electric collar is OK too then, how to get them banned in England as well...:(

ETA - no dog of mine would EVER be allowed to be in a situation where it could kill a sheep, but I never think PTS is the worst thing which could happen to a dog
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I admit I am old in body, perhaps not so much in mind (I hope)

E collars have a good effect if used in extreme situations, no different to using electric fencing for horses, cattle and sheep.

As for thrashing a dog I agree that it is extreme but as I said, if done at the right time it can work.

Why is it that so many people nowadays think that to whack an animal is so wrong?

You say that no dog of yours would be in a situation where it could kill a sheep but supposing you were out for a walk with your dogs off leash and a farmer had put a flock of sheep in a field where there had never been any before?

Sheep are balls of wool that are made for chasing and it is the instinct of most dogs to chase them.

I had a very well trained, Field Trial winner, come to me because he had started chasing sheep. He would see sheep a mile away and be off to chase them yet this dog was well over normal obedience trained.
he came here with owners, was allowed to chase some shearlings, caught, not a word was said and placed in a stable with 'Wild Thing' a nutty mother proud ewe that nearly killed the dog by battering him every time he blinked.
Took him back to the shearlings and when the owner went to the other side of the flock and called dog, he went way from the recall to the hedge line, ran wide past the owner still glued to the hedge and then when well clear of the flock went to the owner.

Was that cruel? Do I think the dog learned the hard way? You bet I do! was that dog forever confined to being leashed worked and not doing the job he was bred for? No, he went on to win more field trials and working on shoots during the winter and perfectly safe to allow off leash.

Tough sins earn tough measures.
 
what does tying the dog to the dead sheep do? dont think I would do it because in my head it would encourage them if they get to nosh down on it?!
just interested... :)
 
I can offer very little in the way of practical advice to the OP I'm afraid, but I just wanted to add some comments on e-collars as I have used one on a confirmed sheep worrier (she managed to take down a ewe and lamb, and drew blood but was thankfully caught before causing further damage).

Before I used the collar on my dog I tried it out on myself (had to really really psyche myself up for that one!), first on low power then on full. Well, I was very relieved! It is really just like touching an electric fence - not nice of course, but just a very brief and fleeting discomfort. Even on the neck it is unpleasant, but not out and out painful.

Although I agree that such a tool must be used with correct timing, imo it is really not such a 'specialist's' device as some on here suggest. For me, I used it like you would a water pistol or similar, only I could do it at distance and without any delay or problems with bad aim. Dog (under control on long line in a field, or in pen with sheep) looks at sheep, is told to 'leave it', is zapped if does not instantly obey. The zap simply acted as a correction, and not even a painful one. It just breaks the dog's focus as I see it. I certainly wouldn't be so stupid as to trust my dog with sheep, but I can now walk past sheep fields and my dog barely gives them a second glance so it does seem to have worked!

I'm not saying that an e-collar is the answer here, or that it would work on all dogs/in all situations, but I just wanted to try to balance up the views on this issue.

Sorry OP for further side-lining your post. I hope you find a solution for your dog.
 
It should be used on a low setting as an attention breaker and a tool with which to regain focus, like grabbing an old lady by the sleeve before she steps out onto the road, not a tool with which to fry the dog. Using them like that is why people want them banned :(

I'm sorry but there IS a complete lack of understanding about how and when some of these tools should be used and they should be sold or loaned through specialist trainers.
You get it wrong on the wrong dog and you get it wrong big style.

I am not fluffy in the slightest but frying the dog and sinking the boot in can make the dog think fluffy animal = pain and you run the risk of the smarter dog trying to get in there and attack before the pain arrives and making the dog try to be cleverer and smarter than you.

There is not a one-size fits all rule for every single dog on this planet and some of the methods mentioned on this thread could end in disaster.

Although, of course, that is just my personal opinion.
 
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amy_b said:
what does tying the dog to the dead sheep do? dont think I would do it because in my head it would encourage them if they get to nosh down on it?!
just interested... :)
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You tie them really short to the dead animal - with fowl, you tie the bird around their neck, so they cannot remove it or eat it. By the end of a week they will 99% of the time, never look at that creature again.
 
Sheep, they're such a hazard! Step out of your front door and bam! you trip over a sheep. Pop down to the shops and there they are. You can't escape them it seems, not even in your dreams. Is David Cameron aware of this problem?
 
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