H&H Foxhunter preview...

[dee378]

In the h&h today, it has the pages with all the people who qualified, and a little bit about them etc, but I could have sworn at area 38, it was caroline webley and hannah paul who qualified, and rowan willis just missed out on the place, but now, rowan and caroline have gone through and nothing is mentioned about hannah being in the final? She must be going to hoys, coz she's through for the 7yo on the same horse, just wondering if anyone knew why she wasn't in the fox final? Sirius is a great horse, would have thought she stood a good chance in the final!

 

[The Voice]

I don't know why she is not doing the foxhunter, but the 7yo class is going to be a great class with some big jumping combinations against some very quick horses. I agree with Graham that As Good As It Gets has got to be the favourite as it has got quite a bit of experience, but Laura Renwick is very quick as well as Sjarmette with Stuart Harvey who will want to do well and both have jumped at HOYS before. Anyone going on Weds evening will be in for a very good competitive class.

 

[Rambo]

Isn't your boy running too Andy

I'm sure he'll give them a run for their money

 

[dee378]

Yeah some great horses have qualified for all the national finals this year, I'm going there on thursday evening for the Fox final, and I might be staying there for the rest of the week to help with my brothers stand, but I'm unsure about that yet! I'd love to watch the 6yo and 7yo classes!

 

[KarenX]

Ooooo, I havent seen the H&H yet to find out who has qualified. Good luck to Coral Mowbray though as I know she has qualified in the Foxhunter and 7 yr old class. She will be the youngest rider in the class I think.. she's only 17.

Good luck to Ben Maher and Cavallo Z as well! (Are you excited yet Andy?!)

Karen

 

[KarenX]

Yes! Cavallo Z has qualified in the 7 yr olds and the Grade C I think... Andy is being modest!!

Come on Jos!! We are rooting for you Andy!

Karen

 

[The Voice]

He is and he jumped very well at Arena the other week in his first GP (think it is on sky next week). If he had jumped there before I would say he would be in with a shout, but you just don't know how they go for the first time at a show like that. However you have got to be in it to win it and with Ben on board..... I have seen most of the qualifiers and It is going to be very competitive with some very good horses and could be one of the classes of the show whoever gets through to the jump off. It will be agreat experince and really looking forward to it.

 

[The Voice]

Thanks Karen, the stomach cramps have started already (can I take Coligone!!!)

.
No he is not doing the Grade C as he was 4th in the qualifier he done (as well as 4th in a 7yo before winning Addington - likes to make us sweat does Jos). Really looking forward to the class whatever he does, and it will be nice to think of him as a foal trying to stand up for the first time when he goes into the arena in front of a big crowd at the HOYS with a brilliant rider on him. Thats what is all about and what we have tried to achieve (although when we watch he normally has a fence!!)

 

[FRESHMAN]

Sirius is not going into the Fox final. Someone complained that it had won too much Abroad!!!! You would think that the BSJA would know exactly what it had or hadnt won when they register them in England wouldn't you. After all it is the BSJA that re grade them here. I feel a bit sorry for Hannah on this one.

 

[Rambo]

The BSJA don't do any checking when a horse is brought ijnto this country as far as i'm aware ! They apply set levels of money based on the horses age UNLESS YOU specifically do the research with the foreign federations and give THEM the info

 

[dee378]

That's a real shame. The bsja screw up once again, now there's a suprise!

 

[susan_w]

Yep that's true. They will grade the horse now according to age. You have to prove otherwise, else it stands.

Poor Hannah - that's a shame when things like that happen.

 

[SJFAN]

Only good thing is that it may remind people to make sure that they ascertain the winnings of their imported horses and tell the BSJA when registering. I imagine they are quick enough to make sure that they provide evidence of lack of winnings e.g. those of a mare that has been used for breeding so that she would not be graded above the level of actual experience, and it really is not fair to other competitors for people jump horses in classes for which they are not genuinely eligible. If they wish to jump courses of those classes they should ask to jump hors concours. Thank goodness this case was sorted out before HOYS rather than later!

 

[Rizz1a]

Sorry but felt compelled to reply to this. I think the BSJA are being given a hard time unfairly here. At the end of the day how are they meant to police the history of every horse thats registered with them. If they had to start doing that you would not be able to register your horse and compete him/her immediately. It would take an enormous amount of man hours and I am quite sure it would be impossible to resource with current staff and would involve huge costs.

Information is hard enough to come by when you are buying a horse in as much as you have to go to each discipline individually to get its competition history. Imagine trying to do it globally.

 

[dee378]

I can see where you're coming from but in Hannah's situation, it's a bit unfair on her to grade the horse etc, and for her to have competed and then qualified for HOYS, for them to suddenly change it after a complaint? Their decision should be final.

 

[Rizz1a]

I wouldnt know about this particular case and its been a while since I had a horse registered. However it used to be that they would take you on your word.

Whether records hadn't been given properly or perhaps Hannah had been misinformed I don't know. However surely if someone complains and it's proved that the horse hadn't been registered fairly then they have no choice but to act on it.

I remember a girl that used to compete in discovery and newcomers with a horse she'd purchased from the south. she then bought it up here and was jumping it. won a class and had her photo in the press which a judge from the south recognised as being a Grade A mare. Surely then you have to action it. The same rule should apply or am I missing something?

 

[SJFAN]

As Rambo said imported horses are graded according to their age unless there is proof of winnings to place them in different grades. According to H & H report of Area 38, Sirius was imported from Holland in March. As he is a 7 year-old he would have been credited with having £400 winnings (notional)unless there was evidence that his winnings should place him below or above that point. Of course I don't know where the blame lay in this instance, but it certainly would not be fair on other competitors for the horse to have taken the winnings and the place in the Final, if his winnings meant he should not have been in the Semi-Final in the first place.

 

[SJFAN]

As far as I recall the problem of horses being "recycled" was one of the reasons for the introduction of Members Cup Classes so that less experienced or less able riders could legitimately ride Grade As or Bs in novice height competitions. However I doubt the problem of unscrupulous vendors selling horses and ponies describing them as what they believe the buyers are wanting rather than what they actually are, can be solved unless compulsory microchipping to prove horses's identities is introduced.

 

[FRESHMAN]

Whilst I appreciate that the BSJA have got a routine 'grade to age system' horses imported from Holland France Germany etc can be checked on in minutes. Its as easy as falling off a bucket. On one of my recent imports I was told Ah yes its a grade A as it's 9 yr old but we will check in both Holland (where it was bred) & went to Sweden 2 yrs later (for 1 season) Ah it is now a Grade B. I decided to check the same Countries records to find that in actual fact the horse had jumped 3 times in Holland, then again 2 yrs later in 9 classes in Sweden. With the help of a currency translator I found that it had actually won the equivalent of £19.00. The BSJA agree that is all he has won. So they changed him to a 'C' but at £600. Where is the sense in that? They replied that the horse has started in a few 1.40m classes. It had not won a penny in 1.40m. But they graded it on starts not wins. I actually phoned 4 different countries in one day & had faxes back from 3 in the same day & one the very next day. Not too difficult for an association that has all the website & fax no's of every countries showjumping association to hand is it?

 

[FRESHMAN]

OOps pc wouldnt let me add. I believe that is what happened with Sirius. He had started in some bigger classes but not actually won or picked up money in them. That is what is not fair in by book. Good young horses being pushed out of there respective classes to soon. They need the experience.

 

[Rizz1a]

makes more sense to me now. what happens across europe. do horses move across from say germany to france on a 'like for like' basis? Is it only in the UK we have this penalty type of system and if it is why? If an english bred horse is imported to Germany (if it should happen!) are they given notional winnings?
I can't understand the logic if winnings can be proven.

 

[SJFAN]

How on earth could the BSJA defend the notion of grading on starts rather than achievements when it's completely at odds with what happens in its own classes? With £400 "on his card" Sirius would not have had much time left in Foxhunter if jumping well between March and June, which he certainly was. I saw Hannah retire him after jumping clear in the 1st phase and a few fences in the 2nd phase of a Fox/1.20 2 phase at East of England. I wondered then whether she wanted not to add money to his card, or was saving him for the following Grade C.
Money winnings as such are not a good basis on which to grade a horse (that's part of the reason for the welcome change from actual to notional winnings). I'm no expert but in some countries e.g. Belgium they do not have our type of novice class structure, the young horses jump in their own age group classes. Britain was lamentably slow to introduce age group classes. Of course there are also low height classes, so a horse which was a late starter or has had an injury setback, will still be able to gain experience at the appropriate level. It may only be Ireland which has a grading system similar to ours.

 

[burtie]

Oh looked at the start list last night, I for one will be cheering Sassy on. I think shes got to be one of the oldest Luidam offspring out their so really keen to see how she goes. I think she has qualified for a few finals too!

 

[The Voice]

The other thing to remember is that ther age classes appear to be bigger abroad ie 1.40m for some 7 year old classes over here they are about 1.30m so obviously they will jump bigger over there (perhaps that is why they prduce better horses than us) and I suppose they can't do it on winnings abroad as generally it is better.
I think the BSJA is in a no win situation with this and perhaps there should be an independent accessor to look at some queries.
Very unfortunate for Hannah though when you look at horses like William Funnells who is a bit older and now jumping IT's and GP's but can still compete in the Foxhunter Final (well done for him in producing the horse to be able to do this), against other less experienced horses. Hopefully she will go well (not too well

) in the 7yo class.

 

[susan_w]

One of my friends is in the final - so fingers crossed for Chris Moyce and Amor Van Het Lindihof. Go Chris..............

 

[seza]

We have a belgian horse in his teens grade A and won thousands. When we decided he needed a change and registered him with BD. he came back a loads of points due to his age even though he had never ridden in a dressage test. BD allowed us to have him assessed by a top dressage rider and his points were downgraded due to his lack of experience. For us this system worked well as it would have been unfair for our horse to go in at the top classes. Horses can be assessed for jumping in a similar way by a rider as to how'green' they are and perhaps this may be an idea. We did, however find the BSJA very helpful when buying a six year old who had been imported at 4 by Warren Clarke but never registered with his new owner. He started with £50 on his card.

 

[MagicMelon]

seza you're lucky! We had a big problem trying to register my imported horse BSJA. They initially kept saying "you need to call up the country's show jump society to get them to confirm he has no winnings". Ummmm...... well considering I couldn't even find out who the country's SJ authority was, it was hell! In the end when I did find their website (in their language....) I realised the country was on its month off break (when its super hot in the summer)!! I called BSJA back to say all this and this new person said "oh dont worry, we can sort it for you. I dont know who told you that you had to do it". AGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[amage]

i see what you're saying but surely it can't be that hard to get info. when i brought my mare over here i had to get all her competition records to register her. its not actually that difficult to get them and correct me if i'm wrong but i thought this was also the case with the bsja.

 

[Rambo]

One email to the Dutch Federation with my horses breed society number and chip number, and I had a full printout of all his competition history under every rider, and in all the different disciplines he'd competed in. This took about 5 minutes to do...

I'm going through a similar scenario with a friends horse now, but I have to prove he has won nothing anywhere, as he was registered Grade A due to his age. He hasn't jumped clear round a BN yet !

 

[kerrylou123]

Id like Alibi III to win, as i used to be her owners groom!!Wish i was there to see it myself.