H&H letter- I thought that was a gross generalisation?!

S

seabiscuit

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 July 2005
Messages
6,228
Visit site
Was rather surprised by that letter in H&H written this week. This lady was basically claiming that 'all british riders ride their horses downhill not uphill'. and 'why dont british riders learn to ride uphill like the germans do'.
Am sorry but that is such a sweeping statement and a VERY gross generalisation, and not strictly true!! Was really surprised that H&H printed it!
 
He he - yes, very sweeping! Maybe H&H printed it to rile people in the hope of furious replies next week...
wink.gif
grin.gif
 
Strike me down with a bolt from the almighty but I absolutely agreed with the letter
crazy.gif
Seriously, since I have been in this country almost every instructor I have tried has been happy for horses to go in a false outline...sure the back end is asked for work, but the horses are made to go with too round outline. Whatever happened to *UP AND IN THE BRIDLE* - my riding has really suffered over here because of it and only recently have I been given the confidence to ride back in the way I used to and TBH I am struggling because, in a lot of ways, I have lost my *feel* and the UK seem to think that arched necks are the way forward and I have been trying to conform for too long. I look at countless pictures on for sale sites, here, elsewhere and very few horses I see are going in a way I would say is correct, but I can never say anything because that way seems to be acceptable over here.
 
i know that lady who wrote it slightly and i dont entirely disagree with her. ruth edge is certainly a fantastic jock, all her horses go well on the flat, and it is my observation that rather too many event riders at least have their horse rather too short in the neck than is probably good for their long term benifit. i dont know much about pure dressage riders! and i wouldnt say its because those that are are going down hill, more that they have been asked for collection before they were really ready for it.
i liked the other letter as well but i think that lady should be aiming it at some judges. IMO most riding club type riders do a really good job having and do at leas t ride forward as she says but they cant help it if the judge is too impressed with a flashy mover!
 
It is a huge generalisation for her to say that ALL British riders ride downhill, but I must say at the lower levels, when I have been watching, it does seem to be the general trend.
crazy.gif
 
OK, looking at adverts on HHO, 16.2hh...

This I like...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100974&category=4

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100479&category=4

This I don't like so much...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100830&category=4

This I don't like at all...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100155&category=4

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100079&category=4

Not keen on

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=99424&category=4

And of my own horse - this may look pretty but is wrong (look at neck - thick and look at area behind saddle - hollow)...

pdressage1.jpg



I will take some stills off a vid of her going better, after supper!
 
But do you not think it is unfair to compare the Advanced Medium horse in the first pic with the Novice horse in the third pic? I agree with all you've said about the pics you've chosen, but to my mind an adv med horse should be more uphill and less on the forehand than a novice horse who by the nature of its stage of training will not have the engagement yet to achieve that?
 
It IS a gross generalisation but I also think there is a grain of truth in it, certainly at lower levels and more basic riding. I do know that people learning to ride here achieve one pace and then are pushed on to the next, and then the next, and then jumping with little finesse or understanding of each pace. I really don't believe this happens in Sweden or Germany, as two examples, and much more time is spent consolidating at each level and working towards good balance and self carriage before moving on.

I am looking forward to the fallout next week though!
 
[ QUOTE ]
But do you not think it is unfair to compare the Advanced Medium horse in the first pic with the Novice horse in the third pic? I agree with all you've said about the pics you've chosen, but to my mind an adv med horse should be more uphill and less on the forehand than a novice horse who by the nature of its stage of training will not have the engagement yet to achieve that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree - and the 1st horse is above the vertical and looks like it isnt working over its back and the 2nd one looks very tense over the back IMHO.

But then thats my opinion and your opinion. There is obviously 2 extremes off *wrong* and *right* as such but there as so many grey areas in between which could all be put down to peoples/judges personal opinions
 
SC makes a good point that it is pretty unfair to compare an AdMed against a Novice horse.

However I am going to be very brave (and possibly stupid) and post a piccie of my boy who is a Novice horse. It will be interesting to compare these (and don't worry, I know he isn't 100% correct in his way of going)

JackQuestX.jpg
 
I dont like any of the ones you have posted ou dont like either but that is because they are over bent and tense and working over their backs not beause they are necessarile *downhill* which is what the topic of the post is
tongue.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
OK, looking at adverts on HHO, 16.2hh...

This I like...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100974&category=4

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100479&category=4

This I don't like so much...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100830&category=4

This I don't like at all...

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100155&category=4

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=100079&category=4

Not keen on

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/marketplace/classified/details.php?id=99424&category=4

And of my own horse - this may look pretty but is wrong (look at neck - thick and look at area behind saddle - hollow)...

pdressage1.jpg



I will take some stills off a vid of her going better, after supper!

[/ QUOTE ]

This pic may look pretty to someone who doesnt work the horse over the back and pulls it in, in front (they are out there!!) but I dont think that looks pretty just because it is round as im sure many others dont either
smile.gif
 
I have to admit I look at some of the pictures from the dressage reports in H&H and wince. But pictures are a moment in time. If you take a video of a correctly moving horse and pause it at various points in the stride, it is amazing how dreadful it can look at one point, and a moment later how good it looks, if you catch it at the right phase of the stride.

The point the author of this letter makes is that a lot of riders hold their horses in a false outline, which pushes the horses on the forehand. This is fair enough and very true. A large number of photos published in the weekly dressage pages of H&H show horses ridden like this. The author cites a rider like Ruth Edge as someone who rides their horses consistently uphill. Well, fair enough. But Ruth is an elite rider in two disciplines and would be in the top % of riders in whichever country she happened to live. Even in Germany, the majority of people don't ride like that. Unfortunately.
 
just out of interest what do you think of my pony? When I had him in a rounder outline he was hammered for being on the forehand, yet in this outline he was hammered for being tense and short in the neck... he did have the most appauling confirmation though!

See seeing the pictures I would have thought that this is slightly tense, but the judges here thought it was a fantastic outline
crazy.gif
just after your opinion of him after seeing hte others as I have HUGE trouble judging me and my own horses against others lol
tongue.gif



necarnecanter.jpg
 
Your pony is in a nice outline. His face is a few degrees in front of the vertical, which is ideal. However, I do think he is tense in this photo, and I think that if the picture had been taken a few milliseconds later that tension would show more as his front foot will have grounded before his hind, indicating that he is actually a bit on the forehand. If you had given the reins forward more at this moment, I think that he would be a bit more uphill.

Lovely pony!
 
SC - yes I think it is fair, why should a horse ever go in this extreme roundness that is forever being seen? Breaking at the 3rd vertabrae is never going to be correct, so why do it?

B&J - I like that pic!

H_J - if you break that photo down, the *triangles* are correct and the horse is working from behind and the neck is UK standard arched...not many people IMHO would bother to look at what is going on over the back when those 3 things are what the eye is drawn to, and that really is my point (if you get me LOL)

l_p_p - There is nothing in your photo that screams bad to me - pony is engaged and mouth is relaxed, yes neck looks tense but I would hazard a guess that that is the pony and his confo rather than anything else.

Madmare makes a great point about moments in time, as I have just watched a lot of my vids frame by frame and had some hilarious bits...this is an illustration of one and something that I think we unfortunately see a lot of...

louiseporridge.jpg



This is how P can go with a decent rider on her back
wink.gif


lesleyporridge3.jpg


lesleyporridge4.jpg


My mare is blessed with short front legs (see my sig to illustrate), so it is an ongoing work in progress to try and make her appear *uphill*
 
Now seeing as your a showjumper by rights... which would you rather be sat on coming down to a fence:

DSC03015.jpg


DSC03013.jpg


To me Betsy displays the faults you describe in the downhill, held-down horses - she is weak behind the saddle, can drop behind the verticle, and doesn't step under very well. The first and the last are in part at least due to conformation and current weakness. Although the two photos above are not at identical moments in the stride I still think she is actually stepping under better in the photo where she is not "on the bit". Had there been a fence a stride away though, my hand would have been marginally softer to allow her to drop her neck on take-off, and I'd be pretty happy with that stride. Not sure I've made myself very clear (or made a point for that matter).
 
I think a lot of it is to do with conformation my TB horse has a low set neck he is bred for speed and not for going uphill in collection unlike a lot of german horses where they have been bred uphill for years. A carriage horse is built uphill and this is where a lot of the german horses have been derived from.
So perhaps the British system has been developed to cope with this type of horse? Now we are seeing more and more importance placed on being uphill and the breeds and type of horses that appear in eventing are changing. In 2006 I watched Foreign Exchange do a beautiful test at Badminton and he was ridden very uphill in an advanced outline and got the marks he deserved. There was a big difference between him and others that did not have that level of collection.
 
[ QUOTE ]
SC - yes I think it is fair, why should a horse ever go in this extreme roundness that is forever being seen? Breaking at the 3rd vertabrae is never going to be correct, so why do it?


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it should, I'm saying that I would hope an adv med horse would have a greater degree of engagement and therefore a more uphill way of going than a novice horse, and therefore the adv med horse should, by virtue of its stage of training, look more correct than a novice horse. The point I'm trying to make is that an adv med horse should be more highly trained than a novice horse and therefore should have its back end more underneath it and be lighter on the forehand and therefore be more uphill. I think it is unreasonable to expect a novice horse to have the same way of going, therefore it is difficult to compare the two.
 
i agree with lec too-it took an awful lot of work to make my last horse appear to be going uphill-as she was 3/4 tb and bred for speed, and therefore doesnt have those uphill paces...in some photos she would look awful in others she would look awful-also as people say a photo is a monet in time/pa rt of a stride and therefore its difficult to judge.
weezy-in P's case i agree she looks better in the more recent pics..and i can see what you mean about her having shorter front legs...same as my old mare-which is what also didnt help her out jumping as she found it hrd to get the weight behind-and to make a tiny improvement would have meant changing her way of going..to make it different again to how she has throughout her life.
 
I've found this thread incredibly interesting, as I've never been to sure of the distinction between 'uphill' and 'downhill'. All I know is that I really dislike seeing a horse overbent!

I know this photo is not in a dressage setting, but I had Ellie going along at what I would say is her normal 'working' trot. How would you describe her manner of going? Having read the comments above, I now suspect that she carries her head too much on the vertical...am I right in thinking this?

ellieandmesponsoredride.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top