H&H Star letter - overweight / judges comments

KautoStar1

KautoStar1

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thank god for the lady who wrote the Star letter in todays H&H ref a judges comments about fat show ponies. I was tempted to write myself but couldn't find polite enough words to discribe my disgust at this judges comments.
While judges continue to place fat horses and ponies, its sending out the message that being overweight is acceptable :(
 
Did you see last week's issue? Take a look at the inside back cover, where they had a picture of a champion show horse from 30 years ago. It looked like a racehorse compared to some of the beached whales on the current showing pages!:eek:
 
Probably going to get shot for this.

It's more difficult than people realise, particularly if they've not been there doing the judging. What do you do if the only pony in the ring that has behaved is fat? What if the rest have terrible conformation? This isn't a condition class - if we're going to place in order of best condition we might as well remove ridden classes all together.

An example I recently saw. Three ponies in a first ridden class. 1 obese, 2 nicely conditioned. The two nice ponies were verging on out of control, the obese pony was perfectly behaved. So what's the judge to do? Reward the ponies that were badly behaved (particularly in a first ridden class) purely because they're not carrying too much weight? Or reward the pony that at least fulfilled the role of first ridden pony?

I do wholeheartedly agree with the idea that overweight animals should simply be removed from the ring before judging. That would solve the above problems! Until this happens, however, the issue cannot be as black and white as some would like it to be.
 
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I think it's very black and white:
Too many horses in this country are overweight
Too many show horses are overweight and are still placed
Being overweight is a welfare issue, which can lead to the development of serious and painful health problems
http://www.youtube.com/user/horsecharity#p/u/38/nMHoArG_oYg
A horse that is hugely overweight is not fit for function anyway IMO - a hunter, for example, should be fit to hunt for a day without expiring, a riding horse should not need to be coated in layer upon layer of blubber to get it to behave.

Therefore, judges should be able to demand that obese horses leave the arena. If they can't do this currently, they should be able to. I can't believe it would take much in the way of effort to put this into place, frankly. Until this is in place, to send a clear message to competitors that fat horses will not be tolerated, we will continue to see revoltingly fat creatures wheezing and gasping their wobbly way around arenas and show fields. And this is wrong.
 
I agree with MissSBird. At the end of the day manners, conformation and type are a huge part of showing - that's the idea of it - to find the perfect specimin. Ok grossly overweight animals can't move as well as they should because of fat getting in the way but what if they are near perfect in every other respect? Performs well, clean limbed, good all round conformation vs one that doesn't go well, has less than perfect conformation but just doesn't have the weight the other one does?

I am completely against shockingly overweight animals in the show ring and they will always be placed down WHEN THERE IS SOMETHING ELSE TO BEAT THEM. You can't just dump the good quality but overweight horses down the end of the line and have the mediocre ones that perform ok getting the qualifying tickets for championships. That's not the idea.

As much as other disciplines don't like it Showing is about perfection. As near to perfect conformation, manners, performance, overall outlook and turnout as you can get. Racing - splints, over at the knee, dipped backs - who cares so long as they can go fast. Eventers, show jumpers, dressage horses are all the same - defects can be overlooked so long as they perform their trade.

The weight issue will rage on and on and until every single person and judge inthe showing world says enough is enough at the same time and start slimming them down people are always going to think bigger is better.
 
I stewarded last weekend for my friend and she did put a fatty above some less well behaved ponies (we were in the kids ring... never again!) but she did tell the owner of the lead rein pony that it was overweight and it was taken on board. However when another owner was told she replied with 'really? I don't think so'. She also placed a beautiful pony that had the most badly fitting saddle, but told the rider where the faults were and the damage it was doing. Children don't always know so she sugar coated all her comments!

Some people just don't see that their horses or ponies are fat, they think they are in 'good condition'. It makes me sad and mad that these people just don't understand what they are doing to their animals :(
 
I agree with what you are saying in principle MissSBird - that the better of the confirmation and behaviour should win BUT the judge should pass comment if the horse/pony is overweight! It is far too common for judges to expect 'condition' on show horses/ponies.

We showed our 10hh falabella x coloured pony in hand a couple of years ago and the stupid judge actually asked my daughter whether there was a reason that the pony was kept in such 'lean' condition! My daughter said 'yes it's healthy he's 10hh and susceptible to laminitis'. It's stupid judges making comments like this that give showing a bad name - they are clueless about real horse health.

Our pony is imo a perfect weight - you can just see his ribs and he has a nice soft neck.

IMAG0172.jpg
 
I believe having these animals so overweight is as cruel as having them underweight! Disgusting! their supposed to be athletes.
 
I completely agree Spudlet - hence why I said as much on my post.

My point was that, until that rule is put in place (and god speed the day it is), it's not as black and white as it could be because there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration. The safety of a child being a key example.

I would dearly love to see the day that judges are taught how to recognise obesity in different types of horses (as an overweight welsh D looks very different from an overweight hunter), and the day they stand at the enterance and stop anyone who fails this test from coming in.
 
Placing a fat horse is an example of placing form over function. It's the same way of thinking that has led to some breeds of dogs becoming practically deformed as breeders have stopped breeding dogs to work, and started breeding only for looks - leading the Shar Pei's excessively wrinkled skin, the excessive coats of many show-type gundog breeds, the lack of athleticism in show-type Labs, the breathing difficulties in the Pug.. I could go on listing deformities like these for day! Stupdily fat horses are no different from this IMO.

It is also why I will not set foot in a show that I have to pay to enter - none of my cash will fund this practice, until the showing fraternity start putting their horses first. I go to shows only when I am working at them.

ETA I know MissSBird, we are agreeing with each other! I would say that judges should know how to condition score (not a hard thing to learn to do) and perhaps this should become part of what the horses are judged on.
 
Last year at some of the county shows i did they were actually saying your horse needs to loose weight so i do think some judges are starting to change there ways.
 
MissSBird said:
Probably going to get shot for this.

It's more difficult than people realise, particularly if they've not been there doing the judging. What do you do if the only pony in the ring that has behaved is fat? What if the rest have terrible conformation? This isn't a condition class - if we're going to place in order of best condition we might as well remove ridden classes all together.

An example I recently saw. Three ponies in a first ridden class. 1 obese, 2 nicely conditioned. The two nice ponies were verging on out of control, the obese pony was perfectly behaved. So what's the judge to do? Reward the ponies that were badly behaved (particularly in a first ridden class) purely because they're not carrying too much weight? Or reward the pony that at least fulfilled the role of first ridden pony?

I do wholeheartedly agree with the idea that overweight animals should simply be removed from the ring before judging. That would solve the above problems! Until this happens, however, the issue cannot be as black and white as some would like it to be.
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Not having a go, I can completely understand your point, but would it be the same if a well behaved horse with nice conformation and turnout was drastically underweight? Would the judges who feel able to place an obese animal feel able to place one with visible ribs and hip bones?
 
I don't show, but do they have to place the horses?
If the correct weight horses don't have the confirmation/behaviour to be placed above the overweight pony could the rosettes not be with-held or rosettes starting below the qualifiers be given out, know it would be difficult with kids classes to not give out a rosette, but withholding the qualifer because of the issues would encourage people to drop the weight.
As above I don't know about showing, but how is it scored, is it a tick box, out of 10, by eye?
 
KristmasKatt said:
Not having a go, I can completely understand your point, but would it be the same if a well behaved horse with nice conformation and turnout was drastically underweight? Would the judges who feel able to place an obese animal feel able to place one with visible ribs and hip bones?
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I have actually been on that side of the coin. My old hack was extremely stressy and a very poor doer. The weight just fell off in winter, despite my best attempts. Whenever we showed I was always told she needed more conditition (which was true in her case), yet cannot remember every feeling like my placing was undeserved/lower than it should be.

But you do make a valid point. It's much easier to be horrified by emaciation than horrified by obesity, when we should be treating each as a relatively equal crime.

Spudlet: :)
 
Excellent point KK, I would envisage major upset if they did.

I always wonder if show horses are kept obese so they don't have they energy to misbehave in the ring after being worked in outside, & to hide those conformational faults that may be more obvious if they were carrying less blubber which would render them being placed further down the line.

The idea of them being fat scored outside the ring (maybe call it weight scored in the unimaginable circumstance of an underweight pony being produced), to avoid the dilemma of weight v manners. If all show horses had to pass a condition scoring on the day prior to entering the ring there would be no problem, producers would change their animals immediately. Every endurance horse, even those doing the pleasure rides, have to pass a vet inspection before & after every ride (those that fail are not allowed to start), so why not in showing?
 
Naryafluffy said:
I don't show, but do they have to place the horses?
If the correct weight horses don't have the confirmation/behaviour to be placed above the overweight pony could the rosettes not be with-held or rosettes starting below the qualifiers be given out, know it would be difficult with kids classes to not give out a rosette, but withholding the qualifer because of the issues would encourage people to drop the weight.
As above I don't know about showing, but how is it scored, is it a tick box, out of 10, by eye?
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I think this is possable. I have seen it stated in some rules that just because you win a class doesn't mean you will qualify. It said you would only qualify if the judge thought your horse was truly good enough. (If that makes any sence)
I was at the new forest show on the Wed and it was mainly M&Ms. I couldn't bare to watch any other showing classes as it made me sick to see all those FAT ponies. Just wandering round the lorry park I was in tears.
Now I think Herbs is a little fatter than ideal but in our class he looked positivly anarexic :eek: Something needs to change. Peoples attitueds need to change. The amount of people who have told me I won't do well in showing because Herbie doesn't "Carry enough weight" :eek:
I'm not making my pony Obiece just so I can do well at showing but this is the attitude many (Not all Just many) showing people have.
 
Spudlet said:
I think it's very black and white:
Too many horses in this country are overweight
Too many show horses are overweight and are still placed
Being overweight is a welfare issue, which can lead to the development of serious and painful health problems
http://www.youtube.com/user/horsecharity#p/u/38/nMHoArG_oYg
A horse that is hugely overweight is not fit for function anyway IMO - a hunter, for example, should be fit to hunt for a day without expiring, a riding horse should not need to be coated in layer upon layer of blubber to get it to behave.

Therefore, judges should be able to demand that obese horses leave the arena. If they can't do this currently, they should be able to. I can't believe it would take much in the way of effort to put this into place, frankly. Until this is in place, to send a clear message to competitors that fat horses will not be tolerated, we will continue to see revoltingly fat creatures wheezing and gasping their wobbly way around arenas and show fields. And this is wrong.
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At 2:06 - are they ear twitching that horse? :mad:

Agree with other comments that overweight animals should be prevented from entering the ring, that way a class would be more fairly judged.
 
Steward on gate, condition scoring on entry - anything scoring less than or equal to 2 or greater than or equal to 4 dismissed. How hard can it be? I'll volunteer for any local shows in Essex!

I do take the point that, once in the ring, it would be difficult to place a "good" but obese animal below a poorer, less mannered specimen but that doesn't account for the judges who fail to comment to owners that the horse won because it is just "better" but it is still fat and needs to lose weight. It's also not an excuse for the many judges who insist on making comments about fit horses who "need to put on weight".

I was shunted down from a placing to the bottom of a class of c.15 last year for having the audacity to reply to such a comment "really? my vet condition scored him at 3 last week" (which was true :p). Not that I care, but it was pathetically petty. (It was a local show, I know the judge, she has obese show cobs, my horse was impeccably mannered and has shown successfully at county level - I was just killing time before the jumping. I was well aware she would react in that way and I couldn't have cared less, I was making a point). If I'd been feeling vindictive I might have said that he wouldn't make it over the show jumps if he was as fat as hers...
 
If you prevent overweight animals from going in the ring who is going to be there to say they are overweight? Stewards - who in some cases wouldn't have the foggiest about horses. Judges - make their job take 10x longer. Vets - not all shows have an onsight vet. Who then does the job fall to? Who is going to have to make the decision as to what is overweight and then have to stand and get a whole load of abuse thrown at them by people who don't agree with their choice?

Everyones version of overweight also differs. What I would call well covered others would say is obese and others again would say needed more weight. You then also get the various breeds and builds of horses and ponies. Stand a dainty Sec A next to a chunky Sec A - the chunky one will look obese for the pure fact that is just bigger built. Fells and Dales are supposed to be chunky power packs. Show Ponies are supposed to be dainty - though not as dainty as they are getting but that's a different topic. If you are going to start refusing entry to overweight animals then you will also need someone who knows about each breed.
 
EKW said:
Who then does the job fall to? Who is going to have to make the decision as to what is overweight and then have to stand and get a whole load of abuse thrown at them by people who don't agree with their choice?
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I volunteer. I'd happily score them and take the flack.

It's pretty easy to condition score, actually, and it is regardless of breed - you can feel skeletal markers that will guide your assessment of how much fat there is - it's more about poking than looking. And on a 5 point scale 2.5 is lean / racing fit, 3.5 is the dressage horse "standard" (or so they say), 3 is optimum. 4 is considered fat, therefore 4 should surely be your cut off...
 
This has been my bugbear for years!!!!! I'm sick of seeing fat horses placed above mine "because it has a nice neck" pffftttt!!!!!! It's got freakin' great big CREST you muppets!!!!!

That and M&M classes... they're nearly ALL too fat.
 
Surely it will benefit the 'sport' as the horses will be assessed without 'hidden' faults so the best will win. It must also help their longevity. On another forum there is a discussion about older endurance horses who are doing shorter distances due to their advancing years but are still fit, sound & having fun with their owners in their advanced years. One such horse is the wonderful Appalousie Firefly, bred/owned/ridden by Pam Jordan. He is still doing short distance competative rides aged 30, was racing up until aged 25 (gained a 2nd & 5th place that year) & has covered well over 5000km in his competative career, not to mention how many1000's more whilst training. Fire is fit well & having a ball. How many show horses would come out & compete every year from aged 6 to 30, be fit, sound & still love their job? May be weight & its effects on joints should judged for what it is, a serious welfare issue that can compromise a horses useful life & their overall lifespan. It's not about asthetics, it's about welfare.
 
It's not just that judges place fat ponies higher, my friend has a (in the vet's opinion) "perfect weight" horse, usually a show jumper so was athletic, as well as avoiding health issues such as laminitis.

One day my friend and horse entered a showing competition, just for fun and although was perfectly behaved, and a very showy horse they where placed very low. When asked why the judge said that she preferred to see "more meat" on her horses!

When asked out of curiosity why, the judge could only reply with "just because" :confused:

therefore not only encouraging already fat ponies, but wanting others to get fatter in order to do better! - thankfully said friend chose to stop showing rather then listen to the judges "advice" (vet almost had a heart attack when we told him!)
 
I don't like to see fat horses and ponies being placed, and have stewarded for a friend who got a bit of a mouthful for not placing a lovely section C first in a veteran qualifier (Olympia qualifier) it was soooo fat. The owner was furious, her teenage daughter was riding and all they could come up with was 'we show at ponies Uk and always get placed' friends comment was 'well i judge at Ponies UK, your pony is still too fat'

However, I do have natives and was once told my little mare was too fat, and yes she was a little bit, but she was getting plenty of exercise and not much food, I could hardly feed her less.
 
Years ago I was talking about this to a breeder and judge I know and wondered where all the champion riding ponies we used to hear so much about in the 70s and 80s disappeared to. Straight away he said, oh they didn't go to be brood mares, they largely succumbed to laminitis! Hmmmm.
 
if people keep seeing fat horses being placed above ones with less weight then people are going to think that it is better for a show pony/horse to be fat,or think that it's the only ay they're going to get placed. really it is the judges who are maintaining this trend of obesity and until they start refusing to place obese animals then nothing will change:(
 
And another thing - fat "model" horses used in advertising or shown in magazines (though I've not noticed any in H&H :p) are no better. Responsibility there too?
 
When we bought Fany she had been a very successful show horse and broodmare in Belgium. Obviously we had her vetted and the only issue she had was, you guessed it, her weight! On our yard is a horse from WHW and they visited,just a week after she arrived, to see him they had their usual look around, Fany was picked up immediately as being obese and we were given loads of info. and a DVD about how to help her lose weight, slowly and surely. They were more than willing to help and provided excellent advice when asked for it.

It has taken us 2 yrs to get her to a reasonable weight. She is an Ardennes (Trait Ardennais) so is never going to be lithe but we were over the moon in May when the vet gave us the thumbs up about her weight! But it does take time and patience. It is as bad for horses to lose weight quickly as it is people.

I personally think they need to bring in new rules about obesity (which imho is a form of abuse) and give show people a year or 2 to conform. Hopefully then no one would have a reason to bring forward an obese horse and could be eliminated if they did.

My only gripe is that not all horses are TBs, Fany is very big built with around 15inch of bone, she is never going to have a racing snake's physic!

FDC
 
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This has been a talking point for as long as I can remember - the show ring prefer well covered animals.

As one person said that someone sees a well covered pony placed so the others go home and fatten up their pony - the next show someone sees a fat pony placed so goes home and fattens up their pony more - and it just goes on.

It's no different than the bling thing.

30 years ago we wouldn't be seen dead in some of the stuff people wear now - showing was about the pony, conformation, paces and manners - not who can sparkle the most.

It really is wrong to allow any animal to get overweight - says she who is battling with 'fat mumma' clydesdale - the governing bodies need to get together and state that an overweight horse or pony will be stood down below the more ideal weight - or will be asked to leave the class. It is not fair on the judge to leave them as the one to make the decision.

A showing person once said - a layer of fat hides a multitude of sins.
 
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