H&H Star letter - overweight / judges comments

I think the Humdinger looks pretty much perfect - its a cob and will have a wider rib cage anyway. It also has pretty much near perfect conformation! This is a horse that gallops round massive county shows and has to stay light in the hand and off the leg without puffing like a steam train. I am not sure how many horses can achieve that perfection and I can say as someone that does ride judging that I perhaps sit on very few horses who can manage perfection to ride, fantastic conformation and carry on cantering round a ring several times.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9795930#post9795930
 
LEC said:
I think the Humdinger looks pretty much perfect - its a cob and will have a wider rib cage anyway. It also has pretty much near perfect conformation! This is a horse that gallops round massive county shows and has to stay light in the hand and off the leg without puffing like a steam train. I am not sure how many horses can achieve that perfection and I can say as someone that does ride judging that I perhaps sit on very few horses who can manage perfection to ride, fantastic conformation and carry on cantering round a ring several times.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?p=9795930#post9795930
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I am very glad that I am not alone in thinking the Humdinger is in pretty much perfect condition! :)
Well, you, me, all those partially sighted judges that keep awarding him championships... :p
 
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MissSBird said:
An example I recently saw. Three ponies in a first ridden class. 1 obese, 2 nicely conditioned. The two nice ponies were verging on out of control, the obese pony was perfectly behaved. So what's the judge to do? Reward the ponies that were badly behaved (particularly in a first ridden class) purely because they're not carrying too much weight? Or reward the pony that at least fulfilled the role of first ridden pony?
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This sounds more like a local show...? At county level, the majority of horses behave impeccably but are ALL overweight, as this is now seen as the standard that needs to be met, and owners try to get their horses in 'show condition'. Not individual judges fault i know... just making a point :)
 
Well thanks for saying it for me, that's what I deleted. I was wondering if FMM would come on here and defend Dinger, and if people would say those things to her personally and allow her to address the criticism as has happened on the Louise Pavitt thread, which I am sure a lot of people were not expecting and have now disappeared. Ho hum!
 
MissSBird said:
It's more difficult than people realise, particularly if they've not been there doing the judging. What do you do if the only pony in the ring that has behaved is fat? What if the rest have terrible conformation? This isn't a condition class - if we're going to place in order of best condition we might as well remove ridden classes all together.

An example I recently saw. Three ponies in a first ridden class. 1 obese, 2 nicely conditioned. The two nice ponies were verging on out of control, the obese pony was perfectly behaved. So what's the judge to do? Reward the ponies that were badly behaved (particularly in a first ridden class) purely because they're not carrying too much weight? Or reward the pony that at least fulfilled the role of first ridden pony?
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It is surely first and foremost a showing class in other disciplines, not a best behaved pony class, so conformation and presence should take pre-eminence. First ridden admittedly is slightly different, but this is only a small proportion of all showing classes. The obese pony is too overweight to do the job properly and is probably only well behaved because it is so heavy and unfit, it cannot raise the effort required to be naughty! Otherwise, you are rewarding people for presenting obese animals. (how you judge conformation properly on an obese animals is another question, but lets face it, thats why most of the obese ones are obese - it covers up conformation defects).
 
fatpiggy said:
Years ago I was talking about this to a breeder and judge I know and wondered where all the champion riding ponies we used to hear so much about in the 70s and 80s disappeared to. Straight away he said, oh they didn't go to be brood mares, they largely succumbed to laminitis! Hmmmm.
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You do read a remarkable amount of reports in H&H about show horses and ponies expiring at relatively young ages. Obviously no-one wants to decry people for suffering the loss of a horse due to bad luck, but it does seem that the average horse doesn't succumb to its fate so young and therefore you have to conclude that showing is a high risk activity for equines, for whatever reason.

Would love to see a study on a random sample of show horses and riding club horses on age and cause of death done!
 
I genuinely don't understand why show animals are expected to be fatter than sports horses. It wasn't that long ago when they were one and the same thing.

To the lady who owns Humdinger, congratulations, he's beautiful and I'm thrilled you are doing so well with him.

But.....

he is overweight. Really. If he appeared at a dressage competition he would be twice as wide as any of the other horses in the class and that isn't because he's a cob. Its because of his weight. I've seen a county winning show cob at a British dressage competition and it looked so out of place. Again not because it was a cob, there were several other cobs there one of which won the class. It was because the horse was so obese. Seeing it next to the sports horses really highlighted how fat show horses are.

I understand that right now show horses have to be overweight in order to "fill the eye" and move up the placings. That's what all these threads are about. Why? Why do they have to be overweight? It isn't good for the horses and it makes a mockery of the class titles "working hunter" and "hunter". Galloping round a flat, smooth main ring at Hickstead takes maybe 10 minutes? That's barely getting started compared to a day's hunting. A horse carrying as much weight as current UK show horses do could not do a hard days hunting. And if they did do a whole season's hunting they'd end up a lot slimmer than when they started it!
 
I took my 2 year old to a show recently and was told that he needed some extra 'condition', he's just turned 2 years old, recently had a little growth spurt, and my vet has advised he is at the perfect condition/weight for the type of horse he is.
If I didn't care about my horse then I could have listened to the judge and a few people and pumped him full of various 'recommended' feeds to get his weight on but I'm not doing anything to harm my horse just for the sake of gaining a better rosette. He's also got a few lumps and bumps from playing in the field with his friends (ie bite marks/scrapes) but I'm not going to segregate him on his own so that he's clear from these things - I think it's all part of his youth and growing up. Ok I know its part of showing but it's also part of his education to get out to a show to experience something new. Maybe I wasn't taking it seriously enough?
I think some people are too selfish and don't realise or don't care that they are in fact harming their horses and ponies. It's really sad to see it going on, has been for some time and I expect it will carry on for some time to come.
 
stolensilver said:
I genuinely don't understand why show animals are expected to be fatter than sports horses. It wasn't that long ago when they were one and the same thing.

To the lady who owns Humdinger, congratulations, he's beautiful and I'm thrilled you are doing so well with him.

But.....

he is overweight. Really. If he appeared at a dressage competition he would be twice as wide as any of the other horses in the class and that isn't because he's a cob. Its because of his weight. I've seen a county winning show cob at a British dressage competition and it looked so out of place. Again not because it was a cob, there were several other cobs there one of which won the class. It was because the horse was so obese. Seeing it next to the sports horses really highlighted how fat show horses are.

I understand that right now show horses have to be overweight in order to "fill the eye" and move up the placings. That's what all these threads are about. Why? Why do they have to be overweight? It isn't good for the horses and it makes a mockery of the class titles "working hunter" and "hunter". Galloping round a flat, smooth main ring at Hickstead takes maybe 10 minutes? That's barely getting started compared to a day's hunting. A horse carrying as much weight as current UK show horses do could not do a hard days hunting. And if they did do a whole season's hunting they'd end up a lot slimmer than when they started it!
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He's a cob - there is supposed to be a lot of him! You can differentiate between his head, neck, shoulders, body and back end. There are no obvious fat pads on this horse - in short he looks pretty darned amazing! As for making a mockery of Hunter and Working Hunter classes just head out hunting and see who is on what. Most of the Oliver's horses regularly hunt. Magnus's hunt. As do many many other show horses and as for the show ponies - well yes most of them are wrapped in cotton wool but it doesn't stop them being ponies! Kids still hoon around on them, jump things, go and do this that and everything just with half a dozen sets of boots on!

You would be surprised at just how fit some of these show horses are underneath! And if you reckon it takes 10mins to gallop round the International Arena then that is 2m4f racehorse times so these horses must be fair fit enough.
 
EKW said:
He's a cob - there is supposed to be a lot of him! You can differentiate between his head, neck, shoulders, body and back end. There are no obvious fat pads on this horse - in short he looks pretty darned amazing! As for making a mockery of Hunter and Working Hunter classes just head out hunting and see who is on what. Most of the Oliver's horses regularly hunt. Magnus's hunt. As do many many other show horses and as for the show ponies - well yes most of them are wrapped in cotton wool but it doesn't stop them being ponies! Kids still hoon around on them, jump things, go and do this that and everything just with half a dozen sets of boots on!

You would be surprised at just how fit some of these show horses are underneath! And if you reckon it takes 10mins to gallop round the International Arena then that is 2m4f racehorse times so these horses must be fair fit enough.
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This!

Dinger is lush and I don't think there is any excess weight on him at all.
 
EKW said:
You would be surprised at just how fit some of these show horses are underneath! And if you reckon it takes 10mins to gallop round the International Arena then that is 2m4f racehorse times so these horses must be fair fit enough.
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Sorry but you lost me with this. A fairly average point to pointer can cover 3 miles in roughly half the time it takes a fat cob to get round the international arena????????
 
The posts saying they can't see that Dinger is overweight explains why we have this problem. He IS overweight. He is also lovely but put him next to a fit competition horse and he would look huge. That's the issue.

Are we saying that show horses are supposed to look fatter than competition horses? And if we are saying that can someone explain to me why?
 
I have stewarded at county shows so have seen most of the top cobs close up and stripped and most of them are fat. I also looked after an 18.2 drag horse that was a draught cross, big built Horse but seriously fit and muscled so I know the difference.
It's no wonder that some of them do not live to an old age as they pound round the ring for the season sometimes on rock hard ground to pick up a qualifier. I do a bit of showing but find I do better in sports pony classes as they seem to judge them on what they are not how much fat they have on them.
In M&M classes the problems is even bigger, childrens ponies wobble and so many of them must be bordering on laminitic.
Perhaps those of you who are studying equine studies should do a survey of the weights of show animals and there long term effects. It would be interesting to follow these animals over say a ten year period.
There are heated discussions on forums about weight, with what seems a large amount of people beleaving that keeping your animal fit but slim, which we advocate for humans, is admiiting you have them on a starvation diet and you should be reported to the RSPCA.
 
rolsterlady said:
This sounds more like a local show...? At county level, the majority of horses behave impeccably but are ALL overweight, as this is now seen as the standard that needs to be met, and owners try to get their horses in 'show condition'. Not individual judges fault i know... just making a point :)
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Yes, that particular class was a local show but still illustrates the point being made which was, how far do you take obesity versus behaviour. What on earth do you do in that situation.

I guess it must be that great line that divides showing in Scotland and showing in England. I've seen plenty of show classes at county level where horses have been less than impeccably behaved.

And thank you for calling my horse, who you've never met nor seen, overweight and accusing me of deliberatly trying to make my horse obese, since that's what we all do. :)
 
stolensilver said:
The posts saying they can't see that Dinger is overweight explains why we have this problem. He IS overweight. He is also lovely but put him next to a fit competition horse and he would look huge. That's the issue.

Are we saying that show horses are supposed to look fatter than competition horses? And if we are saying that can someone explain to me why?
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Could you explain then, to the rest of us, how to recognise that he is overweight? Cause I have to agree with the others; the signs I've been taught to look for simply arn't there. I'm genuinely curious as to what makes you state this.

I think that the idea that show horses should look fatter than competition horses is one that has got slightly lost in communication. What people generally mean when they say this (or at least when I was originally reading this arguement) is that you would expect a top show horse to carry more weight than a top eventer, as the eventer has a much higher and more strenuous workload than the show horse. And I think this is perfectly true and correct. I am not fat and I'm relatively fit, but I don't have the slim toned physique of an top athlete because that is not what I do.

I'm not saying that a show horse should be obese. But comparing them to other competition horses is fairly pointless as they have an entirely different workload. And the same is true of all disciplines. Compare a showjumper to a dressage horse and it'll probably look a bit weak in its topline. Compare a dressage horse to a race horse and the dressage horse will probably look a bit on the big side, or the race horse will look a little thin (anyone ever notice how no one ever comments on how thin some racehorses look?). Comparing competition horses across the disciplines is a flawed idea.

What we really need is a fresh idea of what a good condition show horse should look like, without the comparison to other disciplines which is fairly irrelevent, as different events require different levels of fitness and different muscular strength in the equine.
 
EKW said:
That would be The Humdinger who scored a perfect 100 at HOYS or RIHS? Can't remember which. 50 for ride - manners, performance, way of going. and 50 for conformation - clean limbed, well covered, well built. Yes he could have had a little weight stripped off him but he was by no way the heftiest there.

And now I am going to get shot down in bright orange and red flames :D I think the little skewbald pony above could do with a little weight on to go into winter with ...
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Unless that is a joke, it's people like you who are making this misguided and dangerously entrenched view, so damned difficult to change.
 
MissSBird said:
Could you explain then, to the rest of us, how to recognise that he is overweight? Cause I have to agree with the others; the signs I've been taught to look for simply arn't there. I'm genuinely curious as to what makes you state this.

I think that the idea that show horses should look fatter than competition horses is one that has got slightly lost in communication. What people generally mean when they say this (or at least when I was originally reading this arguement) is that you would expect a top show horse to carry more weight than a top eventer, as the eventer has a much higher and more strenuous workload than the show horse. And I think this is perfectly true and correct. I am not fat and I'm relatively fit, but I don't have the slim toned physique of an top athlete because that is not what I do.

I'm not saying that a show horse should be obese. But comparing them to other competition horses is fairly pointless as they have an entirely different workload. And the same is true of all disciplines. Compare a showjumper to a dressage horse and it'll probably look a bit weak in its topline. Compare a dressage horse to a race horse and the dressage horse will probably look a bit on the big side, or the race horse will look a little thin (anyone ever notice how no one ever comments on how thin some racehorses look?). Comparing competition horses across the disciplines is a flawed idea.

What we really need is a fresh idea of what a good condition show horse should look like, without the comparison to other disciplines which is fairly irrelevent, as different events require different levels of fitness and different muscular strength in the equine.
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What we need is a judge who can tell fat when he sees it! I haven't a clue what you are trying to say here.

I would think a racehorse is pretty much fed and trained to the top of it's game and carries no fat at all. The show animal, with its completely different (and to my mind totallyinadequate) workload ends up looking like a disproportionately fed and worked creature. If it had a similarly calculated feed/exercise regime as a racehorse, wouldn't it look much leaner and muscled? I don't get how loaded shoulders and buried ribs are thus due to muscle?


And my comment about 'Dinger being fit not fat' was obviously lost on those unused to my rants about obesity in the horse world - despite a sarcasm smiley
 
Seeing as we are playing silly beggers and comparing a show horses work load to a racehorses here is a rather nice Cob:

http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...90611-wednesday/grand-ring/pages/GJR 470.html

A Hunter:

http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...00611-thursday/light-horse/pages/BIT 248.html

A HOYS qualified Native:

http://www.equinationalimagestore.c...260611-sunday/main-arena-1/pages/BUS 062.html

And a stripped fit, winning racehorse:

http://johngracing.thirdlight.com/viewpicturepreview.tlx?z=1&albumid=308918&pictureid=16279030

There you go. 3 different show horses, none of whom I would consider overweight and then the type of horse you lot of obviously think a show horse should look like!
 
on the other side of the coin, I was at a big show a few weeks ago watching the first ridden class. There were 5 ponies, 4 of which were overweight and one lovely condition. The one that was in lovely condition was napping and dojng mini rears with the tiny child whilst the other 4 fat ones were pootling along fantastically for the kids. Guess which one the judge placed! I thought first ridden was meant to show a pony that would be suitable for a kid that has just come of leadrein? I certainly wouldnt put my kid on that pony that was rearing/spinning/napping etc!
 
stolensilver said:
To the lady who owns Humdinger, congratulations, he's beautiful and I'm thrilled you are doing so well with him.

But.....

he is overweight. Really.
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Actually, no - he's not. He's in perfect show condition. FMM had him absolutely spot on - and he's exactly what a showing judge should be looking for in terms of condition for the show ring.

He is not competition horse, but a show horse - and the requirements for how they should be presented and prepared are completely different.

Beautiful animal.
 
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I just want to make the point that native ponies are naturally prone to becoming fat in the summer - so fat natives/ponies with a fair percentage of native blood may not have been intentionally 'beefed up' for the ring.
When you are trying to get weight off a Section A for example you are fighting NATURE! These ponies, so cleverly designed to withstand the coldest winters on the sparsest of grazing struggle to cope with even half decent grass. In the wild they would become FAT in the summer and then very lean in the winter - it is us who try to keep them at a resonable and stable weight all year round - and as the owner of a little fat A believe me I know how difficult it is!!!
Reagrding the show ring panel judges HAVE been told to mark ponies down for being too fat. I stewarded at an Olympia qualifier earlier this year and a pony who has won it's section at HOYS twice and been M&M champ there was docked a LOT of marks for being too fat and the judges mentioned to the owner that it was very overweight.
My own A who has come out on the lead rein this season was dropped for being too fat a matter of weeks age - the judge told me that was the reason - so not all judges are putting fat ponies up!
I know my A is too fat, believe me I'm not proud of it - BUT - she winters out unrugged with hay but no hard feed and in the summer she is out in the 'starvation' paddock - she just gets fat on fresh air! She has had to come in and eat soaked hay but it is a very difficult battle.
This is the porky madam

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And just to prove I don't just own porky little show ponies here is our TB who contests RoR classes very susccesfully and who we have never been asked to beef up;-

scan0005.jpg
 
We have a 13.3hh Irish cob showjumper & I realised he was too fat so put him on a diet. Everyone else keeps telling me 'he's fine, he's a cob & supposed to be fat' but no he isn't!!! On the weightape he came up at 408kg, a few months later it was about 400kg. Went to a show & got him weighed last week 379kg (the day after the 400kg weightape weighing!) So I know tapes aren't too accurate!! Also had him fat scored & he came up as a 7 so still some way to go. But I'm still getting called for restricting his grazing! I'm sorry but I dont want to end up having to deal with laminitus.

I was also talking to someone yesterday who shows at a high level. She also had a pony similar to mine but a bit slimmer. At the same show 1 judge placed her last & told her he needed more weight on, the next class a different judge placed her first with the comment 'its lovely to see a cob that isn't fat'! This is why we don't do showing!!!!!
 
As someone who has recieved some odd comments from judges before with my conniex TB such as at a spring show in a ridden hunter class after the judges ride " Young lady I would very much like to take this animal out on to the field for the day but I am afraid I can not place you, can i suggest some grass" She was hunting fit after a fantastic season and by no means skinny and fantasticly behaved !!! and more recently in a veterans class "I would like to see her with more covering ! " Again such a good girl and I was trying to keep her weight down as she had been footy from the grass - It is so off putting ! What can you do ??
 
Not wanting to contradict or anything. I'm fully aware of people , I know personally, that feed their 'show hunter' horses a multitude of conditioning feeds to get them looking good (fat) for the ring. Their buckets are filled right to the top, now what happened to horses needing 'little and often'.

Also, I show a native who during Winter is fine but as soon as a blade of grass comes through, he balloons. He's on restricted grazing, sparse hay and a sniff of chaff so he can get his fly supplement. Surely I'm in a different kettle of fish to those that deliberately over feed?
 
kirsty17 said:
Not wanting to contradict or anything. I'm fully aware of people , I know personally, that feed their 'show hunter' horses a multitude of conditioning feeds to get them looking good (fat) for the ring. Their buckets are filled right to the top, now what happened to horses needing 'little and often'.

Also, I show a native who during Winter is fine but as soon as a blade of grass comes through, he balloons. He's on restricted grazing, sparse hay and a sniff of chaff so he can get his fly supplement. Surely I'm in a different kettle of fish to those that deliberately over feed?
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Oh no, of course you are the same as every single other person that shows! You are over feeding your pony and under working it! You need it stripped fit as a racehorse don't you know! :rolleyes:
 
I just wanted to ditto minesadouble - I was at a show the other day (county) with a native mare who lives out 24/7 on a paddock with barely any grass in it at the moment, and who very occassionally has a very small token feed as a reward for working well. She's carrying too much weight. She's 5. She can either carry a little bit too much (and she's not obese, but she does have a bit of a grass belly) and risk her health, or she can be worked too hard for her age and level of education and risk it, IMHO, further.
 
Yes there are many fat horses in the ring, but I do take great offence at the post stating that all show horses are fat and I suggest the poster goes to a few more shows and takes a better look at what is in the ring.

This is my lad, he was 11th at RIHS last month and has a body score done by Spillars of 5 which is perfect condition. He weight 565k and is just over 15 hands. He does have a lot of bone and his breed is a stocky one.

Stinkyrihs2011.jpg


and our Clydesdale at her first heavy horse show in June.

IMG-20110619-00009.jpg


She is just over 16.2 and weighs 730k - and my vet said she is perfect weight for her breed.

Both jump and hack for hours and can canter round the ring without sounding like a pair of bellows. Neither of them have wobbly piles of fat on them, but do have a lot of muscle.

The ring at RIHS is large, and we cantered round several circuits on both reins, probably about 10 mins of non stop cantering, with a gallop up the long side - my lad was not out of breath at the end.

Stinkygallopingrihs.jpg


I do agree that there are some very overweight animals in the ring but there is improvement with the judges finally starting to mark them down.

Finally, many show horses are strapped to have a lot of muscle on their necks and hind quarters and whilst there is no missing wobbling fat, doing this makes the animals look larger it is not always fat.

There are some very unpleasant things done in the production of show horses and ponies by some people, but the same can be said of dressage, racing and show jumping.

Wherever you have competition, some people will do anythng to get the prize with no regard to the animal. I would also very much like to see the practice of working in for hours, strapping heads down etc banned for kids ponies.
 
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