H Tobago

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cloppy

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Congratulations to Kate and H Tobago on their great article in this months Horse Deals. Tobago is certainly making his mark on the sprorts horse world. Just to wish them every success, which couldn't happen to a nicer horse and owner.
 
Very well deserved publicity for one of the loveliest stallion owners I know. Cannot wait to have Venezia and Xena's foals born here...only a couple month's left to go till V's!
 
Very well done and so nice to see arab horses valued as sports horses you cant beat them in my opinion they are the bravest horse that ever walked the earth they might be scared of something but as long as there rider remains calm they wll take most things on
The ultimate horse to add quaility
 
I may be missing something-but you can hardly promote an unridden horse to be valued as a sports horse stallion really..
 
SusieT, apart from doing their performance test, plenty of stallions here in Germany used to just be used for breeding and never for sport. Thats a more recent trend. Yet it didnt stop them siring top sport horses. Not saying this applies in every case but also some top ridden horses dont make the grade in the breeding shed.

I really want to see this article, apparently there is a photo of V in it!
 
SusieT said:
I may be missing something-but you can hardly promote an unridden horse to be valued as a sports horse stallion really..
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I have lost count the amount of mares that never competed but produced offspring that did. There are also stallions that have never done so either (due to injury or owner not being able to afford to) who have had sucessful offspring as well. Tobago happens to be a stallion a friend is interested in & has been impressed by his offspring so the reason for her interest. If he is lucky enough to get the right owners for his offspring he could prove to be very sucessful. The arab has been used a lot to improve on other breeds even when they were not evented, show jumped or seen appearing in the dressage arena themselves. So yes you can promote an unridden stallion is his offspring are doing the necessary.
 
Yes- if the offspring are doing the necessary you can promote him. Irresponsible in the first place to breed unridden stock-no proof of soundness or performance (regardless of what has been done in the past). this particular stallions progeny are only a few years old I think? So a gambling waiting game really at this point. He is pretty, of course.
 
SusieT said:
Yes- if the offspring are doing the necessary you can promote him. Irresponsible in the first place to breed unridden stock-no proof of soundness or performance (regardless of what has been done in the past). this particular stallions progeny are only a few years old I think? So a gambling waiting game really at this point. He is pretty, of course.
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Well thats the bugbare with arabs, too much showing & not enough doing, yet they can. Years ago I used an AA who had raced, hunted & HT'd but in those days it was the exception not the rule for a stallion to compete. Thankfully that has changed, but how do you know Tobago is not ridden?
 
Well I have to say that Arabs, well more so french Anglo Arabs have been used extensively in showjumping- particularly selle francais breeding. My lifetime horse's grandfather was AA so I with Arab somewhere. Boy if I could bottle him I would have!

People forget that the backbone of SF - in turn mine was BWP, was French Anglos. The Arab is hidden in there somewhere further back. Whilst it is not a close generation I would choose, as the showjumping French anglos are not so prolific nowadays, it is certainly a cross I would be very interested in in cementing in a modern day pedigree
 
SusieT - surely in order to get the offspring that may prove his worth as a sports horse sire he first has to be bred to produce sports horse foals???? His eldest are only now rising 4 but all the foals he has had...pure and part bred and including sports horse types...have been stamped very strongly and complimented in all the desired ways. There are many stallions (too many to list) and certainly many mares that are top sports horse producers and have never competed at all - Tobago was injured and so will resume when they deem him OK to continue. So on that front I cannot fathom how you can say it is irresponsible to breed from unridden stock. Would you say that of the stallion Stormhill Miller...sire of 4 star eventer Stormhill Michael...as he was never broken in whatsoever? At the end of the day all breeding is a gamble and you could use the most renowned and famous stallion in the world and get a dud...there is no sure fire way to plan these things and the use of Arabs as has already been said, has been used to great success in sports horse breeding...not only as an improver in WB breeds but just look at likes of Tamarillo. At the end of the day yes the proof remains to be seen but as a young sire with only his first few crops around and all of those having been successful at whatever they have done and several stallion sons coming up in the pure bred side of things then I think it is rash to negate him now before he has had a chance. Breeders of decent quality mares are using him (yes myself included) and so it is a chance we have taken with the view to not necessarily breeding the ideal foal....but maybe, as is done on the continent and throughout the Trakehner breed especially, then a next step on foal which can then if good enough be crossed back to more traditional WB breeding and thus use the arab qualities to improve the outcome. So yes in this way and the fact that sports horse breeders are using him with this in mind then yes he has captured the use of a lot of sports horses in comparison to others and as such is doing great things to promote his own breed.
 
Arabs are, indeed, the great improvers. The lead article in the January edition of Horse Breeders Magazine gives more of an insight into the breed. Google is your friend if you wish to read it. :D
 
I live in Hungary and shagya arabs are wonderful. Often about the 16 hands mark which is useful if you are tall. I know smaller arabs carry weight well and often take up the leg but personally I do like something about 16hh or taller. Shagyas in particular have been used in warmblood breeding and I think if I wanted to introduce arab for an upper level sportshorse I would lean towards a shagya rather than an in hand show horse. In most warmblood studbooks mares and stallions have to be approved anyway so the choice of arab blood is very limited.

I have always loved seeing posts on H Tobago. I have never seen a foal pic I have disliked and that is from a variety of mares. I have seen few in real life but what I saw I liked. Any thread I see on him I look as I find him gorgeous (and I am a die hard warmblood fan). They all seem to have a lot of presence and of course beauty. As with any stallion time will tell as regards his stock but it would appear they will do what it says on the tin. Will they compete GP show jumping or dressage? No. Endurance, eventing or showing at a high level - with the right mare and rider why not? Will they be good at a slightly lower level in any discipline and give their owners immense pleasure - I would suspect the answer would be a definate yes.
 
Well said Hollycatt. And as a step to the next generation breed as I said before I think he will also do the job - as I believe it says in the article, Arab influence is usually about 3 generations back and so these foals may not necessarily prove him today but their foals might! Also, if you look back at his pedigree it is flush with performance Arabs including top Arab racers and so as a cross for eventing stock he could well produce the goods. Time will tell.
 
It does make me chuckle how everyone runs to defend a forum member.
FWIW I think debate is healthy and can be done without slating a stallion.

H Tobago, from what I have seen, really stamps stock and adds quality. I also like to see a bit of arab blood in a sportshorse, although I would personally rather just 1/4 or 1/8 th.

H Tobago's owner is free to market the horse in which ever way she feels best, and I don't necessarily think that is being irresponsible. The stallion does have to cover some mares and have time for the offspring to be ridden under saddle!!!!!

That said I would love to see this stallion under saddle performing, and tbh it all seems a bit quiet on this front. It is always an extra string to a stallions bow to be able to demonstrate rideability and performance. Will he be ridden at Addington does anyone know?
 
Ihatework - as was said above I think and is in article, he had a major injury to his sternum when he was getting ready for his grading/performance test and as yet is unable to be ridden as obviously an injury to that area affects the girth. So he will be in hand at Addington but I believe the plan is to gradually get him back under saddle in order for him to get out ridden but that obviously depends on his sternum as I cannot imagine many horses would cope with a girth done up if they had any residual pain in that area.
 
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Any idea how he injured his sternum?

Fingers crossed it heals well and that at somepoint in the future he and/or his offspring strut their stuff under saddle.
 
I believe (could be wrong) but I think it was done when being collected...he came down with his chest on the dummy a bit hard and hurt himself and so it was right on the area across where the girth goes. I don't know how severe it was but can imagine if the hit themselves hard enough that it would be possible to crack the sternum and something like that would take ages to heal....especially with animals from the memory alone. I have seen pictures of one of his eldest under saddle already and he looks superb.
 
ihatework said:
That said I would love to see this stallion under saddle performing, and tbh it all seems a bit quiet on this front. It is always an extra string to a stallions bow to be able to demonstrate rideability and performance. Will he be ridden at Addington does anyone know?
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I think we all would but don't forget that in the past many successful eventers (including Badminton winners) and jumpers have been sired by horses that haven't done it themselves so don't count that against him. It's a relatively new phenomenon for stallions to actually be out there doing the job themselves that their youngsters are designed for; I suppose it makes it a bit easier for some or takes the guesswork out but many by competing stallions don't make the grade themselves, it's not a foregone conclusion that you will breed a star just by using a stallion that gets out competing.

BTW, I believe H Tobago was injured which curtailed his ridden career for the time being but it's hoped he'll be back in the future; until then his youngsters will have to do the talking for him.

And yes, I'm bias as I have a Sportabago in the oven. ;)
 
Cloppy what a very sweet thought to post about this - thank you!

And thank you eventrider and others for the supportive comments. And those who expressed understandable concerns. Debate is good!

Tobago has been started under saddle, and was showing great promise and enthusiasm when his ridden training was unfortunately halted early by a freak accident which damaged his sternum. This is made clear in the HD feature and elsewhere. We hope very much that he will be able to resume training at some stage.

Meanwhile, his oldest foals are rising 4 and currently being backed, all proving to be sweet, trainable and very quick learners. But of course it is much too early for them to have any performance records under saddle. Also they are almost all pure-bred Arabs, not foals out of sport-horse mares.

It is more recently that Tobago has been attracting serious sport-horse breeders, so as with any newcomer, it will be a while before these offspring prove themselves under saddle. Breeders have been impressed by his conformation, movement, beauty and the way he stamps his stock. Plus national top-scoring Futurity offspring brought him more attention recently. His many national/international in-hand champions are perhaps less relevant to sport-horse breeders, but he is certainly more than proven as a show sire.

But of course he is still very much a 'gamble' as a potential sport-horse sire - more so than most new stallions as he is a pure-bred Arab and the F1 cross is not usually 'commercial'. That is why I am extremely grateful to the sport-horse breeders who are using him. If an infusion of Arab blood is a good thing, which many here seem to agree it is, then some brave breeders have to do the F1 cross! ;)
 
Does anyone actually have pictures of his youngstock under saddle? Especially ones bred for 'sport'?

I'm genuinely curious as I hear him being recommended as a sports horse stallion but struggle to find anything to explain why. I understand that there are many 'unproven' stallions out there to use but many of the ones mentioned come from years of wb/ISH/sports horse breeding so at least have the genetics to back them up as performance stallions. What does H Tobago have? And what does he have compared to other Arab stallions when he himself in unproven? (Other than the fact he is well known through this forum? ;) ) Does he have relations performing at a level that would suggest he too could perform at?

The Arab seems to be a much misunderstood breed, I've read threads on here and in CR where many have dismissed the use of a full Arab to produce competative horses - although most admit that a 1/4 or and 1/8 is a good dose - so what makes H Tobago, as a stallion without a proven ridden record, good enough to use a sire? Why would/did you use him and what do you expect/see him bring to his youngstock?

** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **
 
Scarlett said:
Does anyone actually have pictures of his youngstock under saddle? Especially ones bred for 'sport'?

I'm genuinely curious as I hear him being recommended as a sports horse stallion but struggle to find anything to explain why. I understand that there are many 'unproven' stallions out there to use but many of the ones mentioned come from years of wb/ISH/sports horse breeding so at least have the genetics to back them up as performance stallions. What does H Tobago have? And what does he have compared to other Arab stallions when he himself in unproven? (Other than the fact he is well known through this forum? ;) ) Does he have relations performing at a level that would suggest he too could perform at?

The Arab seems to be a much misunderstood breed, I've read threads on here and in CR where many have dismissed the use of a full Arab to produce competative horses - although most admit that a 1/4 or and 1/8 is a good dose - so what makes H Tobago, as a stallion without a proven ridden record, good enough to use a sire? Why would/did you use him and what do you expect/see him bring to his youngstock?

** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **
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If you have a read of the owner's response above you will see that his eldest (4 this year) were pretty much all Pure Arabs and so we will have to wait for his Part Breds to mature. I believe there was a forum member with a PB by him that would be 4 this year - youngster was called Ayemkay Emae and was very successful as a baby in the show ring. I don't know her whereabouts now but this was her: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10672986 and so clearly a proper F1 cross.

I can only speak for myself using him on sports horse mares. I have a WB mare in foal to him who is classically jumping bred however very much older fashioned lines. In using him I am adding the blood and athleticism of the Arab which I will hopefully be able to then add into future generations crossing back to more traditional breeding and as such use the Arab infusion to add the necessary speed and agility that is needed in modern jumping without losing that ability and movement inherent in her own breeding. I remember seeing somewhere a while back that the opposite had been done with the WB stallion Legrande whose owner has crossed him onto their own Arabian mares to add some of the WB qualities to the breed.

If you look at his pedigree yes of course this is a show Arab but his pedigree also descends from Russian Arab racehorses and so there is indeed a lot of strength, stamina and speed in there. He himself has been ridden (before his injury) by a jockey who believed he should have been raced as had inherited these qualities and as such he can bring this to the fore as his progeny seem to be inheriting his qualities very strongly - you can even see this in the 2 Highland x foals he has had. Thus added into breeding to say cross with TB or event breeding, his stamina and speed should hopefully prove an asset. In jump breeding he can prove maybe not a perfect sire for the F1 generation but in a couple generations to come have been good enough as progenitor.

Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them. The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds. The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble on seeing whether he is good enough as an improver in sport as he has been in breeding pure breds and in the sporty type youngsters he has so far had. As a horse from the show ring he could not be more proven and yes some might say well showing is nothing special as a means of proving himself but in fact it means that he has proven himself conformationally both statically and dynamically to consistently win again and again - along with his progeny pure and PB that have been shown to date and so when you consider that all of these consistent positive assessments in the ring are easily the equivalent of a grading panel what with his assessment in front of well respected individuals from abroad as well as the UK.
 
eventrider23 said:
If you have a read of the owner's response above you will see that his eldest (4 this year) were pretty much all Pure Arabs and so we will have to wait for his Part Breds to mature. I believe there was a forum member with a PB by him that would be 4 this year - youngster was called Ayemkay Emae and was very successful as a baby in the show ring. I don't know her whereabouts now but this was her: http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=10672986 and so clearly a proper F1 cross.

I can only speak for myself using him on sports horse mares. I have a WB mare in foal to him who is classically jumping bred however very much older fashioned lines. In using him I am adding the blood and athleticism of the Arab which I will hopefully be able to then add into future generations crossing back to more traditional breeding and as such use the Arab infusion to add the necessary speed and agility that is needed in modern jumping without losing that ability and movement inherent in her own breeding. I remember seeing somewhere a while back that the opposite had been done with the WB stallion Legrande whose owner has crossed him onto their own Arabian mares to add some of the WB qualities to the breed.

If you look at his pedigree yes of course this is a show Arab but his pedigree also descends from Russian Arab racehorses and so there is indeed a lot of strength, stamina and speed in there. He himself has been ridden (before his injury) by a jockey who believed he should have been raced as had inherited these qualities and as such he can bring this to the fore as his progeny seem to be inheriting his qualities very strongly - you can even see this in the 2 Highland x foals he has had. Thus added into breeding to say cross with TB or event breeding, his stamina and speed should hopefully prove an asset. In jump breeding he can prove maybe not a perfect sire for the F1 generation but in a couple generations to come have been good enough as progenitor.

Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them. The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds. The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble on seeing whether he is good enough as an improver in sport as he has been in breeding pure breds and in the sporty type youngsters he has so far had. As a horse from the show ring he could not be more proven and yes some might say well showing is nothing special as a means of proving himself but in fact it means that he has proven himself conformationally both statically and dynamically to consistently win again and again - along with his progeny pure and PB that have been shown to date and so when you consider that all of these consistent positive assessments in the ring are easily the equivalent of a grading panel what with his assessment in front of well respected individuals from abroad as well as the UK.
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Thanks for the reply :) I completely understand your viewpoint, and will be interested to see your foal once it makes an appearance, Arab x WB does sound good!

Can I ask if you are breeding him with a view to producing horses for a specific discipline? If sj or xc then did you see him jump before breeding? An admittedly quick Google search shows me no pictures of H Tobago under saddle, never mind jumping or even videos of him loose/ridden/jumping, something I would expect to be essential in a sports stallion. I understand he hasnt done a lot under saddle and is currently injured but he has been ridden, and jumped, in the past from what I have read and thus I would expect to see something to try and prove his credentials? Or when using a quality, proven mare does it matter less?

Thanks again. :)
 
I have seen quite a lot of video of him moving in all paces as well as under saddle (home videos of when he was just broken) and so what I saw impressed me enough in him himself however even then I still waited to not only see more of his progeny as they developed but also to ensure I had the correct mares for what i was aiming for. The WB mare this year is SJ bred through and through however really moves and with the correct cross breeding could easily produce an eventer as much as continue with her strength which is show jumping, having Olympic/International jumpers on ever line of her pedigree. I have another mare going to him this year who is a fully graded Trakehner and herself has Arab back in the 3rd generation back but herself needs something more compact and athletic as is prone to being lazy. She has already produced a performance test champion herself and is a proven broodmare. I feel he will add that extra 'spark' she is lacking in herself as well as refine her slightly and hopefully compliment her weaknesses...again though we have to see.
 
eventrider23 said:
I have seen quite a lot of video of him moving in all paces as well as under saddle (home videos of when he was just broken) and so what I saw impressed me enough in him himself however even then I still waited to not only see more of his progeny as they developed but also to ensure I had the correct mares for what i was aiming for. The WB mare this year is SJ bred through and through however really moves and with the correct cross breeding could easily produce an eventer as much as continue with her strength which is show jumping, having Olympic/International jumpers on ever line of her pedigree. I have another mare going to him this year who is a fully graded Trakehner and herself has Arab back in the 3rd generation back but herself needs something more compact and athletic as is prone to being lazy. She has already produced a performance test champion herself and is a proven broodmare. I feel he will add that extra 'spark' she is lacking in herself as well as refine her slightly and hopefully compliment her weaknesses...again though we have to see.
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Very interesting - thank you! :)
 
I thought you might like to see this when I worked for his rider MW and his then wife, This horse was at the height of his fame his grooms and I would ride out together after I had finished work he is such a great example of what Arabs bring to the Party some of us are old enough to have some knowledge of how things got to where they are Today

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/didi4
 
Scarlett said:
** Disclaimer - I'm am not, in the slightest bit, trying to cause an argument. I plan to breed from my mare in the next 2 years and whilst researching stallions I have been told umpteen times to go for a proven performer thus I am merely curious why many knowlegable breeders on here have choosen this stallion in his current situation. **
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This amuses me as one being used to the old HIS stallions that have time without number (though I'm sure someone could work it out) have come up as sires of the winners of most top class competitions in this country and abroad whether that be eventing or show jumping.
Most of those stallions were in the main, not very successful racehorses but they did have excellent conformation and vetting results.
If you went to see a stallion back then, you'd get it trotted up for you in hand but it was extremely unlikely you'd ever see it ridden (unless you were lucky enough to have seen it racing) and you'd never think to ask to see it ridden, it just wasn't done back then.
There's a stallion I know (and have used) that's not even broken but he's produced endless amounts of Grade A's and advanced eventers and dressage horses. Are you saying he shouldn't be used because you can't see him ridden?

ETA, he's not graded either.........
 
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