H Tobago

[AmyMay]

This amuses me as one being used to the old HIS stallions that have time without number (though I'm sure someone could work it out) have come up as sires of the winners of most top class competitions in this country and abroad whether that be eventing or show jumping.

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through this post.

 

[Maesfen]

Lol.

To this end I think some youngsters can be a right disappointment in that they don't achieve the same level of accomplishment that their parents do - which on paper makes the 'need' to see the stallion ridden/performing debatable.

 

[htobago]

Just wanted to say that I think Scarlett's queries are fair enough - it's not unreasonable to be a bit surprised that so many experienced sport-horse breeders are using a show Arab who is unproven under saddle, however popular he may be as a sire of Arab show champions.

I have been surprised myself at the amount of interest in him, and I am his proud and biased owner!

But I think these breeders explain their reasons very eloquently - both here and along with others quoted in the HD article, which I'd be happy to PM to anyone who would like to read it.

 

[htobago]

Any idea how he injured his sternum?

Fingers crossed it heals well and that at somepoint in the future he and/or his offspring strut their stuff under saddle.

So sorry - I missed this post!

The sternum injury we think was actually from a freak stable accident, in which he also damaged his hock very badly - but eventrider is right that it was then possibly exacerbated by over-enthusiastic mounting of the dummy.

He has subsequently had no problems collecting, but the saddle/girth clearly caused him severe pain. The vets say that sternum injuries are among the hardest to diagnose accurately, and almost impossible to treat, except with time and patience. So we are waiting patiently for this to heal, and hope that his ridden training will resume at some stage.

If not, his offspring will be out representing him under saddle in the not-too-distant future - including for example the two 2011 national BEF Futurity winners (top endurance 2yo and top endurance 3yo, who were also the highest and second-highest scoring youngsters across all disciplines at their Futurities).

 

[Scarlett]

Are you saying he shouldn't be used because you can't see him ridden?

Absolutely not! I'm asking why serious, experienced breeders like yourself and the others on this board are using him in particular to produce a certain 'type' of foal. With other stallions it's easier to see the reasons why as there are pictures/videos/comp records/complete websites dedicated to showing the stallion off, but not so much with Tobago. I have no bias towards him either way, I am merely curious and have some time on my hands today to ask questions. eventrider23 has been most generous with her time to answer my genuine questions and for that I am appreciative.

Thats all, honest!

 

[SusieT]

For the record I think it is irresponsible to breed any animal without a soundness record for the parents-so yes I would only breed using ridden stock. A bit of a thick headed approach and not a very practical one to long term soundness otherwise. Regardless of the winners from that approach.

 

[Cherrygarden]

There wouldn't be a right lot of horses anywhere though if everyone took that approach SuzieT. Things may have changed and be changing but still although work under saddle and continued ability to do so with four legs and a brain is a useful indicator of this there are still an awful lot of horses that are lucky to remain sound for 5 minutes when you look at the way they are ridden, housed, fed, shod or not and many other factors, this probably doesn't give any indication whatsoever that any horses bred from them will also be inherently unsound if they are better managed. Unsoundness under saddle that is exacerbated by bad conformation is a reliable indicator of a horse to avoid breeding from but just to write a horse off because it doesn't compete under saddle is daft, most of the continental brood mare herd ought not be bred from in that case as they have only worked as much as HTobago if not less.

 

[Seahorse]

I love H Tobago and have always been very interested in his offspring. I own a warmblood x Arab gelding myself and it would be lovely to see more of these about.
My horse's Sire was an Arab racehorse and his Dam was a showjumper, he is a dressage horse working at medium level.

 

[SusieT]

That might not be a bad thing that there wouldn't be a right lot of horses out there..It would just mean those who bothered to get their 'conformationally' perfect horses out ridden/showing would get a reward for it. It's a strong opinion I hold-horses should not be breaking down aged 12+.

 

[htobago]

Hey, everyone has their own criteria and priorities - which is fine.

If anyone is looking for an Arab stallion proven under saddle, Marcus Aurelius is a really super boy. Very different type from Tobago - he's the more traditional Crabbet type that many people prefer.

His exceptionally nice owner posts on here - as avonbrook.

So, there is something for everyone!

 

[Jamana]

http://www.kevinsparrow.co.uk/BSE2012_MARCUS_AUREL.aspx

Marcus Aurelius was at Hartbury, see pics above.
Another Arab stallion out eventing is evented by a 14yo and went to a stallion parade at Bramham last year I think. Called Templars Orchestral Pearl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmB0kG4EMzk

 

[EstherYoung]

I have to say I do admire Tobago's PR machine (and I don't mean that in a nasty way at all - I'll bet there are lots of stallion owners who wish that their boy had captured the imagination like Tobago has).

The frustrating thing for me is that this is the exact sort of PR that the arab horse society should be doing, but they're not. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab is a great improver as a cross, even as a first cross. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab is an athletic little critter. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that the arab can move well. It shouldn't come as a great surprise that arabs are a bit fast, like.

If Tobago has got arabs back on the radar, that's a good thing. So to all those 'sports horse' breeders who have had their head turned by Tobago, don't be afraid to look a little wider too. No offence to the lovely Tobago, but there is a whole world of arabs out there, in all shapes and sizes. Many come from either racing or military lines and many have achieved high levels of performance themselves. The arab horse society may not do a particular great job of selling their achievements, or in championing the part bred, but achievements there most certainly are.

Many warmbloods are, after all, part bred arabs themselves Traks in particular carry a lot of arab blood, so a cross to an arab or TB is just returning to the source.

 

[pintoarabian]

All of the stallions mentioned in this thread have a great deal to commend them and breeders who use them will not be disappointed. They are all pure breds but don't overlook the value of the high percentage part breds such as TP Starbuck, 87.5% Arabian, whose stock is now out there doing the business. His first foal is currently jumping BS, showing great scope, agility and speed. His firstborn filly, also now jumping BS, has just been awarded Arab Horse Society Premium Mare Status, based on her performance. That's just two of them and they've barely started their careers! PM me for pics/links.

 

[cloppy]

an example of an arab/trakehner foal.

 

[magic104]

I dont think Arab blood in the breeding of a sports horse was in question but the use of an unproven stallion who happens to be an Arab.

 

[EstherYoung]

I dont think Arab blood in the breeding of a sports horse was in question but the use of an unproven stallion who happens to be an Arab.

I think that is the crux of it. Why this arab? And I don't mean that as a criticism of Tobago at all. From Eventrider's post:

Of course there are many other Arabs out there that could be just as good and indeed if people are using them then good on them. The problem is there are not a lot of Arabs right in the public eye and so the likelihood is that many have been passed over when they could have contributed to the breeds. The fact is that Tobago is not being passed over and people are willing to take the gamble...

Whether it is his owner's passion for her horse, whether it is his larger than life personality, whether it is the fact that he has become an internet phenomenon, but something has put this horse on the radar with people who wouldn't normally consider arabs.

Come on arab horse society - we need to get these other arabs and part breds out there so that they capture the imagination like Tobago has.

 

[Cherrygarden]

I have certainly been looking for a long time for arab, high percentage/partbred and anglo arab stallions so that if and when I have the right crosses to make with them I know where they are, I think at the moment I haven't the right mares possibly but one of the big things is price because the better stallions because of their showing careers often command prices in their own world that don't compute in the sports horse world so you have to be quite sure that if you use them, what you breed will show if it doesn't get what it needs to excel in its chosen sport. As for why H Tobago, I suspect people like me were looking, the arab influence in sports horse breeding is still well known and used, the Danes graded an arabian last year as an improver into their Warmblood stud book and I would think that when his first endurance foals and youngsters went through the Futurity and out in public in general it confirmed his usability. A little bit of being in the right place at the right time backed up by a package of movement, conformation and show record perhaps?
As far as soundness goes though and general toughness and ability to perform with grit and bravery(log crocodiles notwithstanding) there isn't really any question that arabs are one of the best places to go for those attributes plus injecting a little sparkle and quality. I think in general though breeders themselves will have to do the work for the society and really go all out to promote their stallions with sports potential.

 

[Avonbrook]

Whether it is his owner's passion for her horse, whether it is his larger than life personality, whether it is the fact that he has become an internet phenomenon, but something has put this horse on the radar with people who wouldn't normally consider arabs.

Come on arab horse society - we need to get these other arabs and part breds out there so that they capture the imagination like Tobago has.

I truly think that the job that Tobago's owner has done in raising the profile of the use of arabian blood in sports horse breeding is to the benefit of us all. Isn't it lovely that the discussion is beginning to move from "the use of arabian blood" to "the use of which particular arabian blood". Wouldn't it be great if further down the line we are discussing particular attributes linked to particular dam (arabian breeder's emphasis...) and sire lines in the same way as I see discussion going on with examples of TB's and various of the warmblood breeds.

Unfortunately imo the Arab Horse Society began to lose interest in promoting any attributes other than those desired for the halter ring about 30 years ago - concurrent with the arrival of big money interests in that arena. So it has been down to the owners of performance pure/anglo/part bred arabian stallion owners to whistle into the wind on our own against what had become a rather anti-arab culture in this country.

The Arab Horse Society does have its premium performance scheme. There are two methods for stallions to enter this scheme. The first is a 2 stage process (although carried out on the same weekend) whereby the stallions have to pass the performance test organised by NaStA (National Stallion Association) which is open to all breeds and to mares as well as stallions and also an assessment by a panel of 3 Arab Horse Society listed judges. The second is for stallions over 12 years of age who are not able, possibly through injury, to be included through the first route where a sufficient number of progeny are deemed by the sub-committee to have reached a sufficiently elite level of perfomance in their particular discipline. Determined efforts are being made by a very few people on this sub-committee to buck the trend within the society and revive this scheme which had all but petered out - but it is an uphill battle, and largely unrecognised within as well as without the breed. For instance the Society will not accept the term "graded" even for stallions which have passed the two legs of the first route of entry, which causes no end of problems for owners of stallions in the scheme.

(For the sake of completeness, all stallions whose progeny will be acknowledged by the Arab Horse Society need to be licensed - which involves a basic veterinary assessment.)

It will come as no surprise that I prefer to use stallions who have proven their abilities and trainability under saddle - the arabian was after all prized as a ridden horse possessing supreme speed, stamina, soundness, courage and trainability above all else. However, horses get injured. It happens. That is why I so fully support the use of the second route into the Premium Performance Scheme. I have said to Tobago's owner that I would be hypocritical were I to criticise the use of Tobago by Sports Horse breeders on the grounds that he has no ridden performance record given that I am breeding some of my best part-breds from a mare who was diagnosed with a traumatic neck injury at the age of 4 such that she would never be safe to ride. I await the ridden careers of Tobago's first progeny with an impatience second only to hers!

But it takes time (and rightly so imo because I hate to see young horses pushed too fast so that they break down in their teens, but that would be a different thread ). One reason that Marcus Aurelius is out their flying his own flag is that he only has two progeny of riding age, one of whom spent the whole of last year recuperating from a field injury... (The other belongs to my younger daughter and, despite being 15.3hh, is very much hers so that his performance achievements to date have been limited to what they can do together - ridiculous as they look!)

Pintoarabian has some fantastic progeny from his, still young, stallions that are out there competing and winning consistently in affiliated showjumping classes. Romarnic Ranger is another part-bred stallion - also in the Premium Performance scheme - who is out there competing successfully in affiliated dressage with his owner's daughter and whose first progeny are still young. Persiflage - another premium performance scheme stallion, an eventer from the same breeders as Tamarillo - was also shown at Hartpury last weekend and may well have taken the award for the most fences jumped in the 5 minute time slot. From the endurance world Chatanz and the late Imad (again both PPS stallions) leap out as older sires whose abilities as performers are coming through time and again. From the racing world Sambist and Vadeer (again both in the scheme this time by the second route - their progeny did it for them, they didn't have to learn to go cross country at pre-novice height though for all I know they could ) leap straight to mind. There are the tall and gorgeous endurance performing Bahrani's at Pearl Island, I coincidently had a brochure through from Shadwell of their fantastic arabian racing stallions this morning, Dervatiw Gwiddion is not only a successful (and again tall) show stallion but also in affiliated dressage, I know Plumbum is out there flying the arabian flag in dressage as I believe is Silvern Prince (supreme ridden arabian HOYS 2010 and reserve supreme 2011). That incredibly successful ridden showhorse from a few years ago Toman is competing in dressage with his owner's daughter and I do believe he is also enjoying his jumping.

And there are more pure/anglo and part-bred stallions out there doing their thing. All different sizes, types, bloodlines and attributes within the breed. As with any breed, one stallion will not suit all mares but as Tobago's owner put it "there is something for everyone"

And as for why, couldn't put it better than Angrovestud did back on page 1!

 

[angrovestud]

Just here to say Thank you Avonbrook I wish you much success with your boy x

 

[Maesfen]

Excellent post AvonB, thank you

Mustn't forget too that Romarnic Ranger is the product of another AHS Premium Sire, Fairlyn Gemini (one of my personal favourites!) who also passed the NASTA assessment.

 

[Maesfen]

That might not be a bad thing that there wouldn't be a right lot of horses out there..It would just mean those who bothered to get their 'conformationally' perfect horses out ridden/showing would get a reward for it. It's a strong opinion I hold-horses should not be breaking down aged 12+.

Sorry, only just seen this.

Performance is a guide only and means diddly squat if the youngsters can't stay sound for the job from inherited weaknesses rather than from an injury alone. You only have to look at how many imported WBs by/out of performance/graded parents don't stay sound for long. It is not a foregone conclusion that because the parents have performed themselves that their youngsters will be able to, you only have to read a few threads on here to see that.

As to 'bothering', many stallion owners just do not have the time, finances or staff to get their stallions out competing but their youngstock do their talking for them which is a bit like proof of the pudding.

As with all breeding, you make your choice on what is important to you; you pay your money and wait to see what cooks before you can say you made a good choice.

 

[tristar]

i believe marcus aurelius has sired an real hispano- arab foal last year which will be registered in the proper register of the spanish government.

i breed part arab sporthorses, i have the stallion 25 percent polish-crabbet, i have worked him hard before breeding from him, his first to come into work will be this year will be 4 year old 12 1/2 per cent arab 16.2 hh when i see how he rides i will decide if the stallion will stand at public stud, i think it is a stallion owners responsibility to take it as far as possible before breeding so you know your own animals and what they are likely to throw, and make every part arab sporthorse a special horse that will be valued and treasured by the people that ride them, and also so that the horses can breed on successfully through subsequent generations and develop strains suited to the different disciplines.

i hope the ahs will aid us at some point.

 

[Avonbrook]

Just here to say Thank you Avonbrook I wish you much success with your boy x

Many thanks angrovestud I don't post that often because I always seem to write an essay when I do!

Excellent post AvonB, thank you

Mustn't forget too that Romarnic Ranger is the product of another AHS Premium Sire, Fairlyn Gemini (one of my personal favourites!) who also passed the NASTA assessment.

Oh yes, another great PPS stallion and a lovely example of having it both ways - performance himself and successful progeny. Actually the scheme does seem to produce them. In addition to the horses I referred to above Marcus' sire Aurelian was a PPS stallion through the performance of various of his progeny. For example his other entire son Istfahan, who is in his 20's now, had the distinction of winning big races and then going on to be a gold medalist on what may have been his only appearance at International level halter at UKIAS.

And as I said, there are so many good stallions out there with arabian blood. I am woefully ignorant of small part-breds and, in particular, show-pony breeding but I would bet that the majority don't have to go too far back to hit an arabian heritage

i believe marcus aurelius has sired an real hispano- arab foal last year which will be registered in the proper register of the spanish government.

Yes, he sired a rather exciting 2011 colt from a very good and fully registered Hispano-Arabe mare owned by Epona stud and I understand that they hope that this colt will grade as a stallion in due course. My understanding is that the Hispano-Arabe register was reopened to horses from the parent breeds to widen a small gene-pool and I was delighted that they chose Marcus.

i hope the ahs will aid us at some point.

Oh yes.........

 

[EstherYoung]

Avonbrook - a brilliant post, thank you.

The owner of Spud & Felix's sire has encountered similar difficulties. She doesn't ride, so with her he is a big pet and the love of her life, but his offspring (sorry, sleeper cells) have infiltrated many many different disciplines. A real case of them being jacks of all trades, masters of some He also spent two years in Sweden on a breeding lease, where he passed a ridden stallion assessment and went on to sire racehorses, even appearing on the Swedish racehorse sire rankings for a while as one son won quite a bit.

He easily meets the 12yo+ criteria for the premium scheme, in at least three of the listed categories that we know of, and in other disciplines that aren't on the AHS list. She is looking into the premium scheme; but he's a 21yo horse now, so how much it's worth jumping through all the hoops to prove himself yet again with a fairly disinterested AHS I don't know. His owner just wants his legacy to be more than 'just' an in hand horse, and it's hard to get that acknowledged in this country. The Swedish registry on the other hand were only too happy to have him on their books as a performance sire when he was there.

But I think we're getting onto a whole other rant now

 

[Avonbrook]

He easily meets the 12yo+ criteria for the premium scheme, in at least three of the listed categories that we know of, and in other disciplines that aren't on the AHS list. She is looking into the premium scheme; but he's a 21yo horse now, so how much it's worth jumping through all the hoops to prove himself yet again with a fairly disinterested AHS I don't know. His owner just wants his legacy to be more than 'just' an in hand horse, and it's hard to get that acknowledged in this country. The Swedish registry on the other hand were only too happy to have him on their books as a performance sire when he was there.

But I think we're getting onto a whole other rant now

I don't know the full ins and outs of the "second route" which is bad because I should and I will go and remedy that (!) but I think the criteria including number of "elite" progeny required are on the PPS website?

If he does fulfill those criteria I accept that the AHS as a whole may be disinterested but I strongly doubt that the PPS subcommittee would be

He is a horse that I have always found attractive....

 

[htobago]

Super post avonbrook - very helpful and informative, as always! I would certainly hope that, as you say, Tobago is helping to promote the use of Arabian blood in sport-horse breeding generally, not just his blood in particular!

EstherYoung I do agree that the AHS could do more, but nowadays it is really very easy for breeders to find out about the many excellent Arabian, Anglo and Part-bred stallions who are out there.

I am also absolutely certain that all of the sport-horse breeders who are using Tobago had the sense to type 'Arab stallions' or 'Arab studs' or 'Arab Horse Society' (or something similar) into Google and thoroughly check out other options before choosing him.

These breeders are not novices who 'have their heads turned' by seeing a few pretty photos or some chat on a forum - they are experienced breeders who do their research and make their choice after careful consideration of the stallions available.

All of the splendid stallions mentioned here by avonbrook and others are advertised online - indeed many have their own websites (which Tobago does not yet have) or are owned by studs with professional, well-designed websites. They are hardly hidden away in obscurity!

But while we're at it, I'd also like to throw in a mention for HOYS champion Silvern Risalm, and Sisyrinchium at Biddesden Stud, who is siring nice eventers. Among part-breds, Yawl Hillbilly is another impressive ridden stallion.

 

[htobago]

Arabs are, indeed, the great improvers. The lead article in the January edition of Horse Breeders Magazine gives more of an insight into the breed. Google is your friend if you wish to read it.

Excellent article!

 

[htobago]

http://www.kevinsparrow.co.uk/BSE2012_MARCUS_AUREL.aspx

Marcus Aurelius was at Hartbury, see pics above.
Another Arab stallion out eventing is evented by a 14yo and went to a stallion parade at Bramham last year I think. Called Templars Orchestral Pearl. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmB0kG4EMzk

Another very nice stallion. And with some of the nicest owners on the planet, who are doing a lot to promote performance Arabs and Arabian blood in sport-horse breeding.

 

[LynneB]

for pinto's fab article on Arabians see here http://www.horsebreedersmagazine.com/

 

[cloppy]

Incandescent Flame is absolutely stunning, have seen some pictures of the Roundhill Crystal KIng before and he is a beautiful.
Thank you for posting the link Lynne.