H - Wave therapy

[Birker2020]

Has anyone had any experience of whether this therapy has worked for their horses please?

My physio has recommended it for my horse and says she will loan me the machine which is kind of her. Its needed for his back due to overcompensatory issues from inflammation of either his proximal intertarsal joint or tibiotarsal joint - I'm not sure which but its become inflammed after three or four years post ethanol fusion. As he is over compensating in his back due to the soreness in his hock she would like to treat with the H Wave machine.

From what I have gathered H - Wave is a bit like a TENS machine and uses an electric frequency signal that is natural to the human body. It copies the H 'wave form' found in nerve signals which is called a Hoffman Reflex. It is meant to offer a greater and deeper penetration of muscles on a low frequency courrent and it stimulates the muscles and increases blood flow around the injury promoting faster healing.

The physio seems confident that he will go back to his previous level of work once he has this course of treatment alongside shoeing with lateral extensions to correct his midline foot placement and stop him from overcompensating. Just wondered if anyone has used it and whether it has made a difference to their horse.

 

[Goldenstar]

Funnily I was talking about this with a physio recently but have never used it .
My view FWIW is than in a horse like yours I would want a current X-ray of the area before using that sort of therapy .

 

[Birker2020]

Funnily I was talking about this with a physio recently but have never used it .
My view FWIW is than in a horse like yours I would want a current X-ray of the area before using that sort of therapy .

Hi Goldenstar, I think you have misunderstood by post. Xrays won't pinpoint sore muscles in his back I'm afraid and that's what she is wanting to use it for as a result of the overcompensation from the hock. The vet has seen him and agrees with the physio. His told me I have to keep him in work as the soreness on his back is minimal and because of his issues he must be kept ticking over. The physio revisted about three weeks after her initial visit and felt that the horse was considerably improved with his back so I am hoping this is because I've had both my saddles altered.

 

[Goldenstar]

No. I did not misunderstand, issues in the vertebrate are so common in horses with hock issues I would want to be sure the bones where not involved before embarking on any sort of treatment .

 

[Birker2020]

No. I did not misunderstand, issues in the vertebrate are so common in horses with hock issues I would want to be sure the bones where not involved before embarking on any sort of treatment .

The issue is sore muscles hence the improvement in between the physio and vets visits. The physio could feel the tightness in the muscles as she palpated them and actually remarked at the time that there was no evidence of KS (she knows this is often a worry with me, that and wobblers). With another horse I could possibly understand your reasoning as I understand that KS and hock problems are often hand in hand but this pair have been working in conjunction with each other for years and know there are no changes in the back and any issues are purely muscular in their nature. Thanks for your suggestion though.

 

[Christmas Crumpet]

I used H Wave on an old hunter about 8 years ago. It was basically like a very expensive slender tone - or at least how it felt when it was turned on, it did!!! Although it had 4 pads which you put on the back and then turned up the machine as opposed to a belt like a slender tone. Hair gel was good as a conductor for the pads!!

Anyway I put it on myself and it was horrible. I think you need to do it very low to start with. I can't say if it did any good or not but I've not heard of anyone else using the machine recently so that may speak for itself.

 

[kinnygirl1]

Not used h wave but had a lot of recommendations for arc equine. My physio has also mentioned A tens machine. (My horse has chronic SI issues with compensatory muscular back pain). Hasten to add I haven't actually tried either of these yet as we are able to keep him comfy and loose with regular physio as it stands.

 

[GOW]

MY (fully qualified) physio regularly uses it as part of her routine treatment every 3/4months. It's quite weird to watch - the muscles literally jump with the pulse - much more so than tens machine - but the horses don't seem to mind. Because it is so intense - it is important to ensure that after treatment there is a period of down time and gradual return to work though - not long but say - one day off, one/two day straight line walk hacking and then slow reintroduction of school work. I am always guided by the physio though. They are very expensive machines so I am surprised she is willing to lend it out - take care of it .

 

[Birker2020]

They are very expensive machines so I am surprised she is willing to lend it out - take care of it .

I've known her for years, she is my best friend so I think that's why. I think she will rent it to me. I watched him on the lunge last night and he was lovely and forward going, swinging through from behind so I don't think its anything too bad. He's having new shoes tomorrow, I've had a chat with the vet and farrier and decided to go with the lateral extensions to stop him placing his foot so midline. I think this is contributed to the back soreness. He doesn't resent being tacked up or ridden, and is still forward going, ears forward and swinging through so going to keep plodding on which is what the vets said. Thanks for your replies everyone.

 

[ester]

Even if there is an improvement with muscular treatment you cannot say for certain there is no boney element also involved and contributing to the muscle tension without xraying, hence GS's suggestion.

 

[Birker2020]

Even if there is an improvement with muscular treatment you cannot say for certain there is no boney element also involved and contributing to the muscle tension without xraying, hence GS's suggestion.

I can see where you are both coming from. However, the vet and the physio have both given him a really good examination, he flexes both upwards and downwards as normal told me there is no problem with his back then I think that that is enough for me to go by. It is clear that the muscle tension is from the hock as an overcompensation. He' s never had this before, and then all of a sudden he gets this at the same time his hock has been shown to have inflammation. I think its a given that its due to the hock inflammation especially as the soreness has improved in the space of three weeks from the first physio visit to the second one. I have the physio coming out next week, if he is even better still then I think its safe to say that there is no bony element involved. When the physio examined him she found him to have normal reflexes. She put her hands either side of his hindquarters and he lifted and flexed his lumbar spine. She carried out lateral flexion on his back by putting her fingers either side of his spine and he was able to flex normally although was a little bit more sore on the one side (which she expected). And then she put pressure on another pressure point and this made his spine go up which made him flex through his saddle region (think its called the thoracic region). His reflexes were normal without ears back or signs of aggression.

Some of us cannot afford to splash out a small fortune on xrays to tell us what we already know. I am always guided by my vet, if he thought xrays were necessary then he would say. He knows the difference between a muscle being sore and a problem with the spine.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

The issue is sore muscles hence the improvement in between the physio and vets visits. The physio could feel the tightness in the muscles as she palpated them and actually remarked at the time that there was no evidence of KS (she knows this is often a worry with me, that and wobblers). With another horse I could possibly understand your reasoning as I understand that KS and hock problems are often hand in hand but this pair have been working in conjunction with each other for years and know there are no changes in the back and any issues are purely muscular in their nature. Thanks for your suggestion though.

Not to be picky or get on your case but physio can't tell you there is no KS.

My tb when in to have a lameness work up as he was lame rh when ridden and held his tension in.his back.

Came back arthritis in hocks and eight processes active KS. If he wasn't lame rh we wouldn't have known about the KS as he was still doing everything normally before the lameness. This horse has seen physio/massage lady every six months or so and both just said he holds tension in.his back.

Have you got a link to the machine? Might be worth look.at it for the tb

 

[Birker2020]

Not to be picky or get on your case but physio can't tell you there is no KS.

My tb when in to have a lameness work up as he was lame rh when ridden and held his tension in.his back.

Came back arthritis in hocks and eight processes active KS. If he wasn't lame rh we wouldn't have known about the KS as he was still doing everything normally before the lameness. This horse has seen physio/massage lady every six months or so and both just said he holds tension in.his back.

Have you got a link to the machine? Might be worth look.at it for the tb

Well I am very suprised that a physio can't tell if a horse has KS. By palpating the horses back and running fingers along the processes I would have thought that any pain would be evident. Sorry to hear about yor TB.

Yes I have the link here, its the fourth one down - http://www.surreyvetphysio.com/inde...rapy-services-and-techniques/electrotherapies

 

[ester]

you might be surprised, but the information is correct.

 

[gunnergundog]

Just a few points:



1. If the back is secondary to the hock then obviously it is going to re-occur, unless you can do anything to stabilise/improve the hock. Sometimes with older horses though that is something we just have to accept and work around to the best of our ability to make them comfortable and re-assess work load/nature of work if necessary on an on-going basis.

2. If the intent is to address the hock by the shoeing as you seem to suggest I would highly recommend a full gait analysis first.......ideally using pressure pads as well as the usual Quintic type software. With these older horses who have interwoven/complex issues it is often the small degree a-symmetries in flight path/placement that can make all the difference and often these changes are not discernable by the human eye, no matter how well trained.

3. Re the H wave......if your physio intends using it at the 2Hz level, then, in crude terms it is a super-charged TENS type machine, with the attendant muscle contracture being visible and I would be happy to give it a go. If however she is intending to use it at the 60Hz level for deep analgesia then I would want veterinary intervention first.

4. Re KS.......unless your physio has x-ray eyes she will not be able to inform whether or not your horse is suffering from this or has any form of facet joint problem. Yes, sometimes KS will present such that a good physio can make an educated guess - especially on a horse they are familiar with; other times it most certainly does not. Do you want to take the chance?

 

[Goldenstar]

Well I am very suprised that a physio can't tell if a horse has KS. By palpating the horses back and running fingers along the processes I would have thought that any pain would be evident. Sorry to hear about yor TB.

Yes I have the link here, its the fourth one down - http://www.surreyvetphysio.com/inde...rapy-services-and-techniques/electrotherapies

My horse is sound flexible and working happily and he's having five spinal processes removed on Tuesday .
A Physio or a vet for that matter cannot tell your horse has not got KS unless they have X-ray vision .
The vet was shocked to see the X-rays which where done as part of a preseason check up having a look at a area of light muscle spasm the physio had identified .
X-rays of a limited area of the back is not a hugely expensive exercise .
The horse has a well muscled back nothing visible to make you think there's was a huge issue brewing .

 

[Auslander]

Yes, and Yes

 

[whiteflower]

Even if there is an improvement with muscular treatment you cannot say for certain there is no boney element also involved and contributing to the muscle tension without xraying, hence GS's suggestion.

as above, my horse had hock issues and was seen by physio and vet many times for 'sore back muscles' and was better with treatment then would get worse again. he showed no obvious signs of kissing spines and vet did not suggest it as a possibility. finally we got back xrayed at my request, 4 kissing spines. with what i know now, i would always xray back on any horse showing soreness having had hock issues. good luck with yours hope he comes right.

 

[PolarSkye]

Well I am very suprised that a physio can't tell if a horse has KS. By palpating the horses back and running fingers along the processes I would have thought that any pain would be evident.

Not so. Speaking from not only my own experience but that of several friends - KS is a notoriously difficult condition to diagnose as it can present in so many different ways . . . and can be caused by multiple factors - not always/often not detectable by just palpation.

P

 

[Goldenstar]

Lack of reaction to palpation is not a good indicator for lack of kissing spines .

 

[PolarSkye]

Well I am very suprised that a physio can't tell if a horse has KS. By palpating the horses back and running fingers along the processes I would have thought that any pain would be evident.

Oh . . . and two separate physios saw my boy (one twice) when the KS was becoming evident but was still undiagnosed and neither of them found any reaction to palpation, but neither of them was willing to rule KS out without proper diagnostics - x-ray at a minimum, possibly along with a look at the underlying soft tissues (particularly supraspinous ligament) - which can only be done by a vet.

P

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Well I am very suprised that a physio can't tell if a horse has KS. By palpating the horses back and running fingers along the processes I would have thought that any pain would be evident. Sorry to hear about yor TB.

Yes I have the link here, its the fourth one down - http://www.surreyvetphysio.com/inde...rapy-services-and-techniques/electrotherapies

Thank you.

He had tension and odd spasms in.his back.but regular treatment sorted them. Still worked nicely I'm a out line, still jumped sj and xc so a.complete surprise as he was only lame right hind.

If you pm me your e mail I can show you the xrays if you want a look.

 

[Birker2020]

Just to update you all, I am very sorry, Goldenstar and all those dear friends of mine that jumped on me (Polar Skye and Auslander) and those that commented afterwards, you are all right with what you say. I spoke to my physio who attended my O/H's birthday celebration on Friday evening and she said neither her or a vet would be able to tell if the horse had KS although she doubted very much that my horse has this and like I say the vet has never mentioned this and he would be the first to recommend xrays if he thought they were necessary.

I am happy to admit when I am wrong, and on this occassion I am wrong (not about him having KS because no one knows, but what I said about a vet & physio being about to tell this without xray). Its just that the physio said his spinal processes were fine and there was no reaction on palpation so I interpreted this as being ok for KS.

The vet text me on Friday to ask me how we were getting on with Bailey but I didn't have time to ring him back. I have just tried to speak to him now and left a voice mail so when he rings back I will ask him this question and if he thinks its necessary to xray his back. But even if he does have KS at the age of 18 rising 19 I doubt I will put him through an operation. Firstly and foremost he couldn't tolerate the box rest with his other conditions it would just finish him off, any injury or illness over a fortnight and I would have to think about PTS anyway, it wouldn't be fair on him, his hocks would seize without regular turnout and exercise like any arthritic horse or pony. There are other reasons secondary to this which I do not wish to go into right now.

I schooled him last night as the vet has told me to continue to do and he was going great, no tension or unwillingness so we will see and I have an unaffiliated dressage class on Saturday which the vet knows about so I will see how we get on then.

 

[Auslander]

Just to update you all, I am very sorry, Goldenstar and all those dear friends of mine that jumped on me (Polar Skye and Auslander)

Could you point out where I jumped on you please. As far as I can see, I said "Yes, and Yes", indicating that I had used H-wave and found it helpful

 

[Mince Pie]

MY (fully qualified) physio regularly uses it as part of her routine treatment every 3/4months. It's quite weird to watch - the muscles literally jump with the pulse - much more so than tens machine - but the horses don't seem to mind. Because it is so intense - it is important to ensure that after treatment there is a period of down time and gradual return to work though - not long but say - one day off, one/two day straight line walk hacking and then slow reintroduction of school work. I am always guided by the physio though. They are very expensive machines so I am surprised she is willing to lend it out - take care of it .

Ah so that's what it is! 3 of my horses have also had them used on them and all of them loved it, my gelding used to fall asleep within 15 minutes.

 

[Birker2020]

Just a few points:



1. If the back is secondary to the hock then obviously it is going to re-occur, unless you can do anything to stabilise/improve the hock. Sometimes with older horses though that is something we just have to accept and work around to the best of our ability to make them comfortable and re-assess work load/nature of work if necessary on an on-going basis.

2. If the intent is to address the hock by the shoeing as you seem to suggest I would highly recommend a full gait analysis first.......ideally using pressure pads as well as the usual Quintic type software. With these older horses who have interwoven/complex issues it is often the small degree a-symmetries in flight path/placement that can make all the difference and often these changes are not discernable by the human eye, no matter how well trained.

3. Re the H wave......if your physio intends using it at the 2Hz level, then, in crude terms it is a super-charged TENS type machine, with the attendant muscle contracture being visible and I would be happy to give it a go. If however she is intending to use it at the 60Hz level for deep analgesia then I would want veterinary intervention first.

4. Re KS.......unless your physio has x-ray eyes she will not be able to inform whether or not your horse is suffering from this or has any form of facet joint problem. Yes, sometimes KS will present such that a good physio can make an educated guess - especially on a horse they are familiar with; other times it most certainly does not. Do you want to take the chance?

Thank you for your help.
1. Bailey may receive a steroid injection into the top hock joint depending on how he gets on with the remedial shoeing and the anti inflammatories. I think I know what has sparked all of this inflammation off, a friend has been riding him and been doing turn on the haunches which I never even contemplated she would do, I saw her do this the one day and it wasn't until speaking tto the physio a few weeks later that I clocked that this may have been the thing that aggravated him as he's been going great before then. She said somethign to do with the torque on the joint - if a horse hasn't done a movement for many years and then suddenly does something, like humans, it will cause problems. I am not blaming my friend, she didn't know and I didn't think to even question it at the time. It was like a light bulb moment afterwards and I will speak to her and ask her not to do this again. I remember before he was diagnosed with spavin and I had a lesson and did this very movement and he was crippled afterwards and it was around then (2009) I got the vet out and he was diagnosed with spavin. This movement is not suited to him and it obviously causes pain and inflammation. I am not that 'dressagy' so don't ever do these movements, so he is just not used to doing this at all bless him. Bless my friend as well, I will have to think of a conversation to have with her so she wont be upset that I am blaming her as I am not.
2. The horse has already been shod, he was done last Thursday.
3. Very interesting about the Hz level, I am sure she knows what she is doing but it is helpful to hear the advice from you.
4. Yes I have commented on this now, and admitted I was wrong, I misintepreted what the physio meant. If he has KS and the vet agrees to xrays after speaking to him (still trying to get hold of him to talk to him) then I won't operate anyway because of the box rest afterwards and his age.

Thank you to everyone for their comments. I am going to crack on with him and see how we get on. Like the vet says that is the only way you are going to know and he must be kept in work. I rode him last night and again he felt fine, forwards going and worked well.

 

[ester]

Could you point out where I jumped on you please. As far as I can see, I said "Yes, and Yes", indicating that I had used H-wave and found it helpful

I'm not sure either! I can't find a jumping one though

 

[Birker2020]

Just spoke to the vet. He says to continue as we are and when I want to start jumping him (he advised 2-4 weeks) and I am going to give him five or six weeks, to film him and email him the video. I asked about the possibility of KS and he says nothing in his demeanour suggests he has KS and he has known him for many years. He also said xrays are not always conclusive of KS anyway, some horses will show changes but not all horses will be in pain even though changes are apparent. Then you have to go down the route of nerve blocks and bone scan for a definitive answer and he still maintains its muscular soreness in his back which is already on its way to being eradicated from the one physio visit to the other, so this has put my mind at rest.

Thanks for your help.

 

[ester]

So you agree that Aus didn't jump on you then?

 

[PolarSkye]

Just to update you all, I am very sorry, Goldenstar and all those dear friends of mine that jumped on me (Polar Skye and Auslander)

Erm, excuse me? I didn't jump on you (and its PolarSkye - no space). I just pointed out that it's impossible to rule out KS without proper diagnostics. I was trying to offer impartial and helpful advice. I should have known better.

P

Edited to add - and, no, Auslander didn't jump on you either. She uttered fewer words than I . . . couldn't have been less confrontational if she'd tried.