Hacking in an outline?

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sonjafoers

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I have recently posted in CR about my mare who won't accept the contact and how my instructor has now suggested a harbridge to stop her flinging her head up when she gets fed up with me.

The long & short of it is I'm still a bit unsure about how to work her when out hacking because I don't have access to a school unless I'm having my weekly lesson.

So.....on the advice of my instructor we are now in a very loose harbridge for the next 6 weeks. This has been fitted so she can stretch down fully, look to either side and get her head up reasonably high but she can't fling her head up and knock me out when she has a tantrum. I am to work on transitions for now and after 6 weeks or so of this my instructor will then help me with working in an outline. For now I am not to attempt to get her in one but just to get her to accept the contact. Does this make sense so far?!

So my question is once we are nice and balanced & soft and achieving an outline in my lessons (which could take a while!) how does this translate to hacking? I've just read the 'naughty' post and someone has put on there that they always hack in an outline - is this wrong then?

If anyone out there doesn't have access to a menage and schools their horse successfully out hacking could you give me some pointers please.
 
Many years ago with limited access to a school my friends and I used to do school movements out hacking. You can shoulder in, half pass, leg yield etc absolutely fine out on a hack. It is also important to give the horse time to stretch and relax as well though.
 
Cant really help but i dont have a school and use a field to practice in but out hacking i try to get my girl to work on a outline for half the ride at least to get her working and listening better to me.
 
hacking in an outline is a hell of a lot saver than not.. the horse is having to move differently than the natural way and therefore the flight mechanism is slightly impair giving less chance of spooking.

So go for it.. Not sure the harbridge will help in the long run mind.

Lou x
 
Personally i don't bother to hack in an outline, I feel if they do nice work in the school, then i prefer them to have a good old stretch and chill out on a hack.

I find that they do know the difference between both. When you work and when you dont!
 
I hack in an outline for control. If you let the horse slop along why on earth would it listen to you? A horse's fun is being a horse in a field - why would a horse consider being ridden relaxing? If you are going to ride why not get something out of it - and be safe!
 
But surely just because you aren't riding in an outline, doesn't mean you're "slopping along" on the buckle? I hack with short reins so i have control but i dont ask her to work in outline...
 
I think this is part of the problem Daisychain - I've always felt that hacking should be fun riding and the school is where we work seriously. However, with access to a school only once a week we seem to be having rather more fun and not enough work, so when I do ask her to listen & work she throws a complete strop. I've been through all the usual back, teeth, bits, saddle etc and my instructor feels she has just learnt to evade the contact because she doesn't want to do the work.

Therefore I have to ask her to work more frequently to build up the correct muscles and also to get her to accept mentally that there are times she has to listen and do things for me instead of racing around the moors!

Divasmum & abigail621 how regularly on an hours hack would you ask for softness, transitions, outline etc. I know it has to be built up gradually but do you just do a few minutes now & then?

Lou - I do have mixed view about the harbridge but I'm told I'm far too soft on her and just to get on and use it in the short term. The idea is to stop her flinging her head right up. She literally throws it right up so I can virtually see up her nostrils and frequently comes close to my head. I'm perfectly open to all views on this so do you think I'm doing more harm than good with it?
 
Katie__Connie said:
But surely just because you aren't riding in an outline, doesn't mean you're "slopping along" on the buckle? I hack with short reins so i have control but i dont ask her to work in outline...
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Having the horse not work in an outline but on short reins causes the bit to be held incorrectly in the horses mouth, possibly causing discomfort, and certainly not offering the proper function. You would be better slopping along on the buckle...

I don't see the point in spending hours in the school to achieve the correct musclature only for it to be undone on a hack :confused:

Also why is hacking not in an outline more fun than hacking in an outline? I'd rather hack in an outline and have better control due to my horse taking confidence from the contact than lose it all in a massive spooky strop because the horse spooks. If the horse is controlling the pace and outline (or lack of it) then expect spooks ;)

I hack in an outline but we have loads of fun going for gallops across fields (when we actually get to them - they're not near :( ) and popping little obstacles that get in our way (like difficult to open gates ;) ). Great fun :) :) :)
 
I (nearly) always ask Cleo to work properly out hacking, especially now we're somewhere we don't have the freedom to just gallop. We do lots of transitions, especially back to halt, and leg yielding - it helps me keep her considerable strength under control as she's listening to me more and is learning that grass doesn't just mean Go! I love hacking, but also see it as vital fittening work, it's not just for fun.
 
Inky_and_Sunny how long time wise did it take you to build up to this? I'm thinking that we can only hold the outline for a very short time at the moment so I can ask for it intermittently whilst hacking but what do I do with the contact in the meantime?

Obviously once the harbridge is off & we are actually soft & listening I can increase the times I ask for it and she will be able to hold it for longer but it's actually getting to that stage that I'm not sure about.
 
I expect my horse to be in an 'outline' [I hate that word for the record though] regardless of where I am tbh. I'll let him go on the buckle to mooch, but I then expect him to go on a correct long rein, still going forwards, etc. Other than that he'll keep himself in an 'outline', as I expect him to hold himself up tbh. I don't want to 'work' to keep him in an outline, especially not out hacking as it's our funtime, I do expect him to have himself in a natural carriage there. He can look at stuff etc, but he doesn't need his head in the sky or turn his head constantly or come above/behind the bit to do this.
I also do schooling occasionally out - quarters in, leg yield, etc. Plus varying degrees of pace in each gait - collection, medium, extension, etc too.

So I guess I like him to be 'correct' is more of a better word.

End of the day, I can take my boy for flat out races, have brakes all the time, never takes a major pull and even after a proper 6th gear flat out gallop, can go straight to the buckle and proceed to mooch like a plod after :) So can't be doing that bad with him :D
 
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sonjafoers said:
Inky_and_Sunny how long time wise did it take you to build up to this? I'm thinking that we can only hold the outline for a very short time at the moment so I can ask for it intermittently whilst hacking but what do I do with the contact in the meantime?
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If you are still building up to it then all the more for trying for an outline out hacking. You can use hacking to ask for the outline without the strain of carrying the outline on the bend.

I build up using a few strides asking for outline and then relax for a dozen or so. Gradually building up though. Horses are sometimes more likely to accept the contact on a hack, probably because we have less expectations so they are under less pressure. Just remember to ask your horse to stride out before asking for flexation or you may find all you get is overbend :(

Just give it a go - you may find your horse is able to relax more due to the comfort that they gain from a consistent contact :)
 
Also 20, even just 10, minutes lunging per day will really really benefit muscle build up and topline for her if you can do it.
 
Thank you. She definately flings her head about much more in the school when I am trying hard to get things right. Maybe because I'm much more relaxed out hacking it will all come a bit easier.

Do you have any thoughts on the harbridge? I'm not 100% sold on it TBH
 
Binky01 I can't really lunge as we don't have a school and if I do it in the field it churns it up for other liveries. I have tried to do it on the moors but with little success, cyclists and dog walkers seem to make a bee-line for the area we do it in the minute a lunge line appears!
 
i don't have access to an arena... i go to one about once a fortnight for a lesson but that's usually jumping nowdays for working hunter practice.... i also just have a field - no stable, no tack room and just trees for shelter yada yada yada

i do everything on hacks - nowdays i ride about an hour and a half a night and work her correctly 90% of the time - in a hack i usually find a suitable bit of grass and also do 20mins ish schooling or individ show practice... i tend to let her stretch out on regular intervals and walk on a loose rein - then i pick it up again and work some more.

this horse was a yak with upside down muscles when i started lessons with her in august last year - on sunday she took supreme show champion at a local riding club show!! so proves you can do it all from hacking :)

we started long and low and using hill work to build up the correct muscles - she also could only hold an 'outline' for a few strides so i didn't ask for one really - just long and low/deep work instead to get her working and swinging through her back. also did lots of uphil walking and plenty of trot and canter work just getting her working from behind... it was really only in about march this year that we began to ask for a more consistant and tighter frame if that makes sense? and began to ask for it for longer periods... i'd say it's only really come into a consistant and correct 'outline' in the last 8 weeks really - but she just gets stronger by the week now and on sun i rode her for 5hrs at the show and she was still light on her feet for the final show and still gave a good gallop too for the judges - and still tried to tank off for the winners round lol!

i also lunge in a 'gadget' (take you pick what works for the horse - i'll not advotate any in particular as they all have their good and bad points and you have to go with the hose in front of you and how it reacts ;)) once a week - that started with literally just 5 cirlces in trot on one rein - then a cirles to stretch - the 5 on the other - another circle to stretch and 2 on each rein in canter with a rest in the middle again - and she'd be exhausted - now she can do nearly 40 mins of work on the lunge and bearly break a sweat. i'll not be increasing that lunging time though ;) and i still take off the gadget for a cirle between each change of rein to let her stretch down in between

oh - but i do do relaxed hacks too - and lots of gallopies about the pace as well - we've not forgotten how to have fun and often venture intot he woods ti find logs/ditches to play over etc and i still try to break up her shows with xc etc to keep her intersted :)

ETA - i still have a bit of a way to go with top line too - i still class her v much as work in progress
 
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Not ever used a harbridge myself so can't comment on that sorry.

Out of all the 'gadgets' I quite like using a M.Harborough myself or [correctly used] draw reins can be a huge help, in the right hands.

I don't think all gadgets are bad tbh. Just like bits, in the right hands they can help the horse learn loads and in the wrong hands they cause more problems than it's worth. But it's just like anything really :)
I think it's when they're used for a 'quick fix' outline and over used/tight is when you run into problems. Used as part of your schooling routine, I think they can be very helpful :) It's just finding the right balance for you and your horse.
 
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Inky_and_Sunny said:
Having the horse not work in an outline but on short reins causes the bit to be held incorrectly in the horses mouth, possibly causing discomfort, and certainly not offering the proper function. You would be better slopping along on the buckle...
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My pony pretty much refuses to go into an outline anyway... shes 18yrs old and has spent her whole life hunting in ireland and doing not much else... certainly hadn't done any flat work before she came to us... we're getting there with it but she is pretty difficult to get into an outline... my point is she has spent 18 years not in an outline and it doesn't seem to have been to her detriment... An outline isn't a horses natural way of going anyway... in that "in the wild" you don't see horses in one... so I really don't think that hacking with a normal contact but not in an outline is causing my horse discomfort....
 
i tend to ask my horses to work correctly when out hacking- that way its helping to build their muscles correctly. don't get me wrong this isn't a case of forcing their head into a false 'outline' for a 3 hour hack...its asking them to walk or trot or canter forwards into a contact as i would in the school with regular bouts of free walk on a long rein. i also try and practice lateral work if i'm on my own. don't really use gadgets (don't have a problem with them per se but i think i'll struggle without them when i take them off so i tend not to bother!)
 
when i hack i do 10 mins walking/ trotting letting her stretch etc and then we do 30-50 mins of transitions, working in an outline etc etc, followed by a good stretch and a gallop, jumping obsticles if theres is any etc, and at least once a week we will have a hack where we just have fun (: we also have a lesson every other week, soon to be every week and we also lune/ use our john whitaker training aid at least twice a week, so some days she is actually being worked twice but she is quite fit and always full of beans and doesnt seem to do her any harm... we also like to take the oppertunity to compete or hunt when we can so she is rli doing a bit of everything (: next year however i will be at college 3 days a week and am allowed to box neddy over there so she will be schooled 3 days a week and horsewalkered for a bit extra plus obv hacking competing etc... this wopnt happen till lorry comes tho :rolleyes:
 
I am currently bringing my boy back into work after a cortisone injection in his hock and after taking some advise from here, I am working him out hacking as he still finds the school surface too difficult to work on - we are only walking at the moment but I am keeping him on a contact but not asking for an outline for about 30 mins then on the way back once he is warmed up and has had a chance to stretch down, I am asking him to come into an outline for the last 10 mins on our way back to the yard. I will extend this every week until we can do the whole 40 min hack in an outline without him getting all choppy pony stride on me. Last night we walked for the 30 mins and I gently asked for some outline for the last 10 and got it with a lovely walk stride - so we are making progress.

I will keep doing this until I feel he can work properly in the outdoor arena surface, which to be fair to him is brand new and still settling so no wonder he finds it hard going
 
All of the horses I ride go in an 'outline' whilst hacking. I dont necesarily buy in to the 'safety' or 'discomfort' arguement as I think if your horse is in discomfort by NOT being in an outline you probably have musculoskeletal problems - refer to the 'in the wild they dont go like that'! BUT I have limited facilities and mainly produce horses to event so I feel that it is improtant that they will listen to me and round in a variety of situations. Also, sometimes you've gotta make do with what you've got! I have lots of lovely roads and tracks to hack on, so we vary the pace, extend, collect, halt, and do lateral movements all over the countryside! It should also be said that I give pleanty of stretches and breaks in between as I want to keep things fresh and interesting. When I have babies or horses that havent dont very much schooling, I also do lunge for 10 mins before I go out using side reins. I find that this generally gives them the rigt idea about what I'm expecting of them. I am usually a gadget-phobe (all snaffle mouthed, no matingale, etc) but I do find that this helps.

With the ground a bit harder and less likely to churn up is there no way you could lunge (just for a few mins) beofre you go out? This can sometimes make a huge difference. If not, I would probably go for it and hack out in the harbridge, but can you take it of if your horse has been good half way round? I feel it is important that is isnt 'all work - no play'. Good luck!
 
With the ground a bit harder and less likely to churn up is there no way you could lunge (just for a few mins) beofre you go out? This can sometimes make a huge difference. If not, I would probably go for it and hack out in the harbridge, but can you take it of if your horse has been good half way round? I feel it is important that is isnt 'all work - no play'. Good luck![/QUOTE]

I've only just started using it but I'm doing 10 minutes or so of good walk pace before I attach it, and today 10 minutes before home I let her have a completely loose rein for 5 minutes (so she could stretch right down but it's still attached) then got off her, took the harbridge off and led her back the final 5 minutes to home. It's such a minefield knowing if I'm actually helping the situation or not! She did about 45 minutes in walk and trot today being kept forward into the contact (but not asking for outline) and intermittently I gave her lots of loose rein stretching time.

Unfortunately I can't really lunge due to problems with the ground in the past when people have lunged - it's generally a no-go area as we only have grazing fields.
 
A harbridge is the only training aid I would consider riding in... But I hardly ever use it (can't remember the last time I used one).

It only encourages the horse to lower it's head and neck, doesn't force it into any false position. I have only ever used one on horses with weak backs that are coming back into work after time off. I use them while I am fittening them up in straight line walk/trot work where they couldn't cope with being put it "an outline", but having their head lower and marching forwards means they are using their back and building up their muscles. I got told to do this by a physio and I've found it works very well.

I don't think I've read any of your other posts. Have you had her back and saddle checked. Head flicking is common when they are trying to relieve tension in their back.
 
Instead of a harbridge have you considered riding in a bungee instead. That way your horse is encouraged to lower from above the poll pressure rather than being pulled on the mouth. It encourages a more natural outline than being 'pulled in'
 
Hi Galaxy23 - yes I've had her back and saddle checked recently, in fact I've had everything checked and checked again! I was worried that she was complaining about something hurting but after lots of checks from vet, osteo, dentist, saddler, farrier, bowen, reiki and vet my instructor & I have come to the conclusion that she is generally just an irritable, grumpy girl. You can't even look at her without her ears going back, she hates being groomed unless she is itchy with loose coat then she loves it, she hates anyone going into her stable etc etc. After lots of soul searching and also sensible discussions it does generally seem that she is crotchety and gets worse so when being asked to do something she doesn't like ie. work! She flings her head about during flatwork with either myself or my instructor on board (although it is less when he rides) but put a pole or jump in front of her & it's ears forward, happy face and no head flinging.

Inky_and_Sunny - thank you for the pics. I hadn't considered anything else as my instructor suggested the harbridge so I have just gone with that. However having looked at your pic mine is much, much looser than that (if that's the right description) I think what I mean is my horse doesn't have her head that high in it, although she could if she wanted to. She seems to carry her head & neck quite low in it and when I saw her reflection in a car we passed today her neck was lower than horizontal but out straight, not at all pulled in. Do you think I may have it set up wrong? Oh no, another dilemma!!!
 
sonjafoers said:
Inky_and_Sunny - thank you for the pics. I hadn't considered anything else as my instructor suggested the harbridge so I have just gone with that. However having looked at your pic mine is much, much looser than that (if that's the right description) I think what I mean is my horse doesn't have her head that high in it, although she could if she wanted to. She seems to carry her head & neck quite low in it and when I saw her reflection in a car we passed today her neck was lower than horizontal but out straight, not at all pulled in. Do you think I may have it set up wrong? Oh no, another dilemma!!!
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Not sure about a harbridge - I've never used one TBH. I just prefer the idea of the bungee as the horse can still raise it's head if it wants (it's just harder than having it lower). I prefer this to the horses head being pulled down. I love that the bungee is stretchy so the horse learns by itself.
 
don't worry, your set up sounds fine. The horse in the photo is also being ridden in a outline, so will look different. It should be set up so it some into action only when their head comes up too high.
 
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