SVMel
Well-Known Member
Abbilibby and wellsat beat me to it lol!!
Another *like* for these two replies!!!
Another *like* for these two replies!!!
Hacking in Draw reins Do i or Dont i ??
- Thread starter Oldenburg
- Start date
solitairex
Well-Known Member
Gosh, what know it alls! Go for it, you know your horse best. xx
SVMel
Well-Known Member
horsey mad matt
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your advice!!
Please dont take this offensively please!! Some people
He is my horse I think i know what right and wrong for him!!some people can come across really rude on here i was only asking a question if you do or if you do not use draw rein while hacking!! My horse has a fantastic outline when has been ridden and fit he has been out of work for 3 months !! And his brain has gone to mush in the mean time! I dont want to have a "fasle out line" or force him to do anything where is the fun in that!! I would not dare say to someone on here you horse needs this your horse needs that i just would not i dont know your horse!!
He does not need reschooling at all he is still in holiday mode!!
Just to let you all know i decided againt it and rode him normaly and he went fantastic!! But still needs some work but hey dont well all!!
Just to add hope everyone has a good season with there horse!!
i don't think anyone is being rude at all you asked for people opinions and they gave them to you if you don't want them then don't ask for them!!! ok only you know your horse, or cause you do so does every other owner but it was only a bit of advice something to try, not telling you to do something.
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
typical example of some one askes something, doesnt get the answers they want ie oh yes shove them on just so he brings his head in.. and then gets stroppy at people responces!
Puddock
Well-Known Member
I'm nowhere near as experienced as some of the folk on here, so probably not qualified to answer, but here's my tuppence worth anyway:
Surely for a horse that, in general, is well schooled and works happily in a nice outline, the priority when bringing him back after a holiday is to ensure that he is forward, responsive and light - then it doesn't matter where his head is, it will drop into place once the rest of him is going correctly? At least, I hope that's what happens when I finally manage to get back on mine!
If he's not silly or dangerous outside, can't really see the need? Glad he went well without them
FWIW, I don't think anyone was bring rude, just offering opinions as requested.
Surely for a horse that, in general, is well schooled and works happily in a nice outline, the priority when bringing him back after a holiday is to ensure that he is forward, responsive and light - then it doesn't matter where his head is, it will drop into place once the rest of him is going correctly? At least, I hope that's what happens when I finally manage to get back on mine!
If he's not silly or dangerous outside, can't really see the need? Glad he went well without them
FWIW, I don't think anyone was bring rude, just offering opinions as requested.
showjumperanna
Member
People, please. She never asked to be patronized, she just wanted constructive advice.
She has decided against using draw reins and her horse is in his stable. I offer everyone a chill pill.
She has decided against using draw reins and her horse is in his stable. I offer everyone a chill pill.
Puddock
Well-Known Member
Don't think anyone was being patronising. Topics relating to draw reins will always result in debate because people have such strongly held views.
For myself, I was interested because I'm about to bring my own horse back into work. Before our enforced break he worked in a reasonably consistent outline, my plan is to start off by ensuring he's off the leg and thinking forwards, incorporate lots of transitions and long and low and bending/suppling work and hope for the best! Maybe I'm wrong though?
For myself, I was interested because I'm about to bring my own horse back into work. Before our enforced break he worked in a reasonably consistent outline, my plan is to start off by ensuring he's off the leg and thinking forwards, incorporate lots of transitions and long and low and bending/suppling work and hope for the best! Maybe I'm wrong though?
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Oldenburg
Well-Known Member
Sorry but excuse me i have not gone "Stroopy" at all!! but it costs nothing to be civil!! Its not just my post that people have been rude in!! I have seen some awful things said to other members in diffrent topics!!
I have read every reply that people have taken the time to type out and thanked them!!
Yes i ask a question about something but like Showjumperanna said i did not want to be patronized.
Many Thanks
Gemma
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Booboos
Well-Known Member
I am totally lost! You don't need them for safety, you have problems with your schooling but you don't want to school out hacking? If you want a response, I would say there is nothing wrong with schooling out hacking but you are much more likely to get good results without the draw reins. Try to get him moving forwards in an active and rhythmical manner and see if this improves his outline. If you are having problems with your bit you should definitely consider changing, there are a million versions of a snaffle out there that might work better than what you are using at the moment.
You are right, some answers on this forum can be bitchy, but I don't see a single one like that here! You asked a question, some people said go for it, some people said don't - what's partonizing about that? If you knew the answer why ask the question?
You are right, some answers on this forum can be bitchy, but I don't see a single one like that here! You asked a question, some people said go for it, some people said don't - what's partonizing about that? If you knew the answer why ask the question?
Kenzo
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to comment about draw reins, as I have never used them, so I'm not for or against them, that's another debate.
OP - If your horse has been out off work for a bit (did you say 3 months?) and also
currently not fit etc. but is safe and sensible, so you'd expect the horses way of going will be different to what it was, therefore maybe once his been ridden more, along you putting the work and giving it a bit of time, his outline will come back naturally as he becomes fitter and more supple, can't see why draw reins would even come into question at this stage but that's just my view, not because I'm anti draw rein
OP - If your horse has been out off work for a bit (did you say 3 months?) and also
currently not fit etc. but is safe and sensible, so you'd expect the horses way of going will be different to what it was, therefore maybe once his been ridden more, along you putting the work and giving it a bit of time, his outline will come back naturally as he becomes fitter and more supple, can't see why draw reins would even come into question at this stage but that's just my view, not because I'm anti draw rein
immoralorchid
Well-Known Member
meh i am going to be shot down for this but hey feck it
i dont see a problem with it one of my horses used to work beautifully in the school but when i took her out she was just to busy looking around and pr*ting around to work round so i stuck them on her for a few days to remind her that yes we arnt in the sand school but you can work properly just aslong as you dont rely on them i dont see a problem at all
i dont see a problem with it one of my horses used to work beautifully in the school but when i took her out she was just to busy looking around and pr*ting around to work round so i stuck them on her for a few days to remind her that yes we arnt in the sand school but you can work properly just aslong as you dont rely on them i dont see a problem at all
Oldenburg
Well-Known Member
immoralorchid we will be shot together lol
I really did not think that a topic about hacking in draw rein would cause an issuse or i really would not have posted it!!
I have read every reply taken it in!!
And i decided against it I think a few of us have crossed wires as i my sometime not make my self clear!!
Please can we end the subject!!
Once again thank you to everyone the replyed i never ment to **** anyone off with this subjest!!
Gemma
I really did not think that a topic about hacking in draw rein would cause an issuse or i really would not have posted it!!
I have read every reply taken it in!!
And i decided against it I think a few of us have crossed wires as i my sometime not make my self clear!!
Please can we end the subject!!
Once again thank you to everyone the replyed i never ment to **** anyone off with this subjest!!
Gemma
lassiesuca
Well-Known Member
When a horse isn't ''working on the vertical'', 99% of the time it's the rider preventing this.
Self carriage is when a horse is working naturally, supporting himself and able to work comfortably. When a horse is in self carriage; we can't mold them into a position- it defeats the object. It causes them to lean on them, and they do hold themselves- but the rider's blockage isn't fixed and therefore horses can become unbalanced and hence why so many horses are so unbalanced and crooked ( more crooked than they are naturally).
When we want a horse to work in self carriage; we have to take their conformation into account; draw reins aren't made for each individual horses needs- some horses have thin and long necks and some have large and short necks- so prefer to hold their head a little lower down; others should have their poll at the highest point.
The riders seat is the biggest issue; if a rider is slightly forward on their pubic bone, then they are in effect putting on a hand brake. If they are unbalanced ( i.e leaning on the reins, sitting unequally, feet are jabbing the side, hands are jabbing the bit etc), then the horse, understandably cannot balanced himself. I find that pilates or bowen/chiro/physio etc can help our crookedness, lunge lessons where you have no reins; can help you to stop leaning on the reins and also checking your horses balance, tack etc can be a major contributer to preventing self carriage.
We have to take a lot of things into account- we can't balance ourselves if we are walking with someone on our back/shoulders who is moving around, tipping to one side, pulling us around- can we?
I find video recordings of yourself, watching them back and sharing with others to see what they miss is always best, if your facilities are limited. Hire out a school or book some simulator lessons. Remember- every opinion on this thread is valid and I think the likes of Wagtail etc make some brilliant points. Don't be afraid to be wrong- making mistakes is the best way to learning new things.
Remember; we're in it for our horses and their welfare- sometimes we have to swallow our pride and accept we may be the cause.
All the best.
x
Self carriage is when a horse is working naturally, supporting himself and able to work comfortably. When a horse is in self carriage; we can't mold them into a position- it defeats the object. It causes them to lean on them, and they do hold themselves- but the rider's blockage isn't fixed and therefore horses can become unbalanced and hence why so many horses are so unbalanced and crooked ( more crooked than they are naturally).
When we want a horse to work in self carriage; we have to take their conformation into account; draw reins aren't made for each individual horses needs- some horses have thin and long necks and some have large and short necks- so prefer to hold their head a little lower down; others should have their poll at the highest point.
The riders seat is the biggest issue; if a rider is slightly forward on their pubic bone, then they are in effect putting on a hand brake. If they are unbalanced ( i.e leaning on the reins, sitting unequally, feet are jabbing the side, hands are jabbing the bit etc), then the horse, understandably cannot balanced himself. I find that pilates or bowen/chiro/physio etc can help our crookedness, lunge lessons where you have no reins; can help you to stop leaning on the reins and also checking your horses balance, tack etc can be a major contributer to preventing self carriage.
We have to take a lot of things into account- we can't balance ourselves if we are walking with someone on our back/shoulders who is moving around, tipping to one side, pulling us around- can we?
I find video recordings of yourself, watching them back and sharing with others to see what they miss is always best, if your facilities are limited. Hire out a school or book some simulator lessons. Remember- every opinion on this thread is valid and I think the likes of Wagtail etc make some brilliant points. Don't be afraid to be wrong- making mistakes is the best way to learning new things.
Remember; we're in it for our horses and their welfare- sometimes we have to swallow our pride and accept we may be the cause.
All the best.
x
Oldenburg
Well-Known Member
Some brill stuff there lassiesuca!!
I can hold my hands high and say this is not my fault beein back in work for 2 weeks now he has a case of i am still on holiday!!!!
Think i will just get on with my way and not ask questions!! lol
Many thanks to all!
I can hold my hands high and say this is not my fault beein back in work for 2 weeks now he has a case of i am still on holiday!!!!
Think i will just get on with my way and not ask questions!! lol
Many thanks to all!
Rose Folly
Well-Known Member
I'm with Wagtail, TulleyStud et al on this one. Hate to see draw reins used, and usually by the wrong people. Counter productive and in some cases abusive! If you feel insecure - and why, because you say your horse is very sensible? - try using a hunting breastplate as suggested elsewhere. I've posted on this subject before, and I'd like to see draw reins banned.
Wagtail
Horse servant
*interesting artical from another anti drawreins regarding the hollowing reflex*
To understand the damage caused by draw reins you need a clear picture of the hollowing reflex. The hollowing reflex is the nervous reaction that makes horses hollow. It causes muscle tension along most of their top line from ears to tail. It is a reflex reaction triggered by almost any perception of pain or discomfort. It starts at the poll where it is difficult to observe. It ends in the tail.
Passive, draw reins hold the bit against the tongue at the bars level or above. Active, they press the bit against the tongue. In the worst cases they press the bit against the bars. They always cause pain or discomfort that triggers the hollowing reflex. Used lightly they tend to immobilize the tongue. Subsequently, all the muscles around the back of the skull become tense and the horse hollows.
The immobilization of the tongue is not readily visible. It happens because the bit presses against the thick of tongue. To relate to the feeling remember times when someone checked your throat with a tongue depressor. To feel what happens use the handle of a spoon to press behind the middle of your tongue and immobilize it. Hold it down for a short time eventually your salivation stops.
The tension in all the muscles around the back of the skull may be visible at the poll. As soon as the tension at the poll happens, you can observe the hollowing tension propagating along the top line.
It is highly visible at the base of the neck and along the back. Once the hollowing reflex has been triggered, it is too late to stop it. Most often it becomes a reflex triggered by the lightest contact of the bit.
Often riders use draw reins to stop head tosssing. Horses tend to become hollow and end up tossing their head as a reaction to the perception of some pain or discomfort. Draw reins will force horses to flex at the poll in spite of the muscle tension. Doing so they also trigger the hollowing reflex. The hollowing reflex becomes a habit. Therefore they tend to perpetuate the habit they try to eliminate.
To understand the damage caused by draw reins you need a clear picture of the hollowing reflex. The hollowing reflex is the nervous reaction that makes horses hollow. It causes muscle tension along most of their top line from ears to tail. It is a reflex reaction triggered by almost any perception of pain or discomfort. It starts at the poll where it is difficult to observe. It ends in the tail.
Passive, draw reins hold the bit against the tongue at the bars level or above. Active, they press the bit against the tongue. In the worst cases they press the bit against the bars. They always cause pain or discomfort that triggers the hollowing reflex. Used lightly they tend to immobilize the tongue. Subsequently, all the muscles around the back of the skull become tense and the horse hollows.
The immobilization of the tongue is not readily visible. It happens because the bit presses against the thick of tongue. To relate to the feeling remember times when someone checked your throat with a tongue depressor. To feel what happens use the handle of a spoon to press behind the middle of your tongue and immobilize it. Hold it down for a short time eventually your salivation stops.
The tension in all the muscles around the back of the skull may be visible at the poll. As soon as the tension at the poll happens, you can observe the hollowing tension propagating along the top line.
It is highly visible at the base of the neck and along the back. Once the hollowing reflex has been triggered, it is too late to stop it. Most often it becomes a reflex triggered by the lightest contact of the bit.
Often riders use draw reins to stop head tosssing. Horses tend to become hollow and end up tossing their head as a reaction to the perception of some pain or discomfort. Draw reins will force horses to flex at the poll in spite of the muscle tension. Doing so they also trigger the hollowing reflex. The hollowing reflex becomes a habit. Therefore they tend to perpetuate the habit they try to eliminate.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I only have one horse here that was regulally ridden in draw reins because my client's trainer (who is a BD judge) was too lazy to teach her how to ride her horse correctly. She made her have lessons in draw reins! When she moved here, I rode her horse and have never encountered such a strong horse for leaning on the bit or just plain wriggling to avoid any contact. By the following day I had her working more softly, but it took a while to undo the damage the reins had done and she still remains the most difficult horse I have ever ridden. Within a couple of months her owner was riding her in a lovely outline over her back *without* draw reins. Yes, it was hard work to teach my client on such a difficult horse, but I think it is wrong for trainers to resort to a quick fix rather than teaching their clients how to ride properly. Anyone can ride a horse in an outline with draw reins.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Agreed re the post to lassiesuca.
Sorry if you took offence to any of my posts. I certainly didn't mean any! Don't be put off asking questions. You asked whether you should hack in draw reins and I (and others) simply said why we wouldn't use them at all. But many disagree and some of them are top horse people. Please do not interpret a difference in opinion over certain gadgets as offensive. They are simply opinions and nothing personal to get upset about. For example, I love the pessoa training aid, but many hate them. That is nothing against me, and I don't think they are being rude expressing their opinions. Do not let the fact that not everyone will agree with how you train your horses stop you from asking questions. This is how we all learn.
lubuzz
Well-Known Member
I agree with both above, very well summed up... an absolute no. Its cheating!!
lassiesuca
Well-Known Member
Don't ever stop asking questions!
No matter how old, young, experienced or inexperienced we are- never stop asking questions! Sometimes we get the responses we don't always like and sometimes, especially over the internet, it DOES come across slightly more monotonous over the computer- as we can't hear expression or see body language. I can sometimes come across quite blunt toward many people; humour is hard to read over the Internet and always if someone is being 'sarcastic' as such- so try to read things in an optimistic way as well as the sarcastic way- I'm sure wagtail didn't quite mean that
Questions are such a good thing; if we don't ask questions- we struggle to move forward. Everyone's brains work differently- some of us are left brained, some of us are right. Some of us see things through optimistic eyes, others see things through cynical eyes.
As they say; all horses are individuals, just like all of us. It doesn't hurt to get some opinion and it sometimes provokes a response which nobody is ever going to agree with ( can you imagine how hard it must be, being PM, trying to keep EVERYONE happy
!!!) It's a hard task and sometimes we have to learn to accept people don't always see things in the same way. I'm pretty anti-draw rein ( I'm anti- most things because it's just the way I am- I'm a cynic you see!); but equally I try to see things from the other hand too. I like to ask lots of questions as well as answer questions, and if I get a bit of advice that perhaps doesn't seem to make sense, comes across perhaps slightly insultingly etc, I used to snap back. Now; I question it!
By questioning people about things, we are spoiled for choice- nobody is FORCING you to make a decision, but sometimes it does pay to hear what others have to say, even if you don't like it. I've learnt that lesson, I learnt by my mistakes. I never asked enough questions and ended up becoming a poor rider because I had the inability to question WHY and give myself a better understanding.
It also allows us, if the situation arises, to be armed with lots of different ideas when tackling a problem. I get lots of ideas from just reading posts and from forums, books etc which I can use to eliminate problems.
So; sometimes it may seem as people are going at you and nobody likes being told their 'wrong', but sometimes it does pay to keep open and always remain integrative about everything. Never stop asking why!
( You'll soon learn that I love quotes!)
You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Good ol' Einstein!
Smile_and_Wave
Well-Known Member
i used to with my horse as he would quickly get into none work mode and schooling on the road was the only real way i could make much progress i think its fine
Laska
Active Member
No offence to the OP, but why does any horse ever need draw reins?I have broken and trained countless horses over 30 years and never needed to use drawreins. They are counter productive and just encourage the horse to build up stronger muscles to counter the pressure they create. This makes some horses harder against the hand when you come to take them off, others are light until they realise the reins have gone andworse still, drawreins damage the neck mucles of mny horses if used for too long.
exactly my point of view...
Topstripe
Well-Known Member
My friend has a 8 year old spooky mare who spins and bolts when she gets really scared at somethign (my big ID 4 year old is the brave one!!). She said the same thing to me the other day when we hadnt hacked out for 6 weeks cos of the snow - should I put on some draw reins just case she is silly?
My answer " if they make you feel safer as a rider and in turn ride her more confidently then I say go for it"!!!
She did and has not had an ounce of problems with her and now working her fine without them. It was more a confidence boost for her.
My answer " if they make you feel safer as a rider and in turn ride her more confidently then I say go for it"!!!
She did and has not had an ounce of problems with her and now working her fine without them. It was more a confidence boost for her.
glenruby
Well-Known Member
Nigsha - I dont hack out for me or my horse to relax. I hack primarily for fittening work and for a change of scenary. Apart from the last mile home, I do not hack on a loose rein - I expect my horse to work on the bit. The only time I hack out for "fun" is on a racehorse (their "day off"), or when my horse was lame I walked her the mile to the river so she could stand in the water for 45minutes twice a day. Aside from that - hacking out is not "relaxing" for me nor my horse. each to their own.
templewood
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your advice!!
Please dont take this offensively please!! Some people
He is my horse I think i know what right and wrong for him!!some people can come across really rude on here i was only asking a question if you do or if you do not use draw rein while hacking!! My horse has a fantastic outline when has been ridden and fit he has been out of work for 3 months !! And his brain has gone to mush in the mean time! I dont want to have a "fasle out line" or force him to do anything where is the fun in that!! I would not dare say to someone on here you horse needs this your horse needs that i just would not i dont know your horse!!
He does not need reschooling at all he is still in holiday mode!!
Just to let you all know i decided againt it and rode him normaly and he went fantastic!! But still needs some work but hey dont well all!!
Just to add hope everyone has a good season with there horse!!
Sorry! Slightly confused! Why did you post the question if you didn't want the replies?
scarymare
Well-Known Member
Ditto the above, haven't read the thread but can imagine some of the replies. I hate draw reins and was really angry when I sent my youngster eventing that they used them (so obvious as soon as you get on). I can't imagine why anyone would hack in them either - if you want your horse in an outline then fair enough as long as you dont fatigue the muscles but you really shouldn't need to tie him down to get this.
K27
Well-Known Member
If it works for your horse, and only you know your horse the best, then give it a try.
I personally have no problems with draw reins when used correctly, and in soft hands, and when used for a reason. I'm not so keen on seeing horses ridden in draw reins with their heads wrenched in and nowhere for them to go- ouch horrible!-
I hack one of mine in draw reins- only for walking out round the lanes, for safety as he's a huge horse and sharp and believe me if something spooks him he's off! they are always on loosely, just there, I hold the draw reins but don't do anything with them or use them in any way. He has never been schooled in them though as no need.
I personally have no problems with draw reins when used correctly, and in soft hands, and when used for a reason. I'm not so keen on seeing horses ridden in draw reins with their heads wrenched in and nowhere for them to go- ouch horrible!-
I hack one of mine in draw reins- only for walking out round the lanes, for safety as he's a huge horse and sharp and believe me if something spooks him he's off! they are always on loosely, just there, I hold the draw reins but don't do anything with them or use them in any way. He has never been schooled in them though as no need.
Starbucks
Well-Known Member
Don't ever stop asking questions!
No matter how old, young, experienced or inexperienced we are- never stop asking questions! Sometimes we get the responses we don't always like and sometimes, especially over the internet, it DOES come across slightly more monotonous over the computer- as we can't hear expression or see body language. I can sometimes come across quite blunt toward many people; humour is hard to read over the Internet and always if someone is being 'sarcastic' as such- so try to read things in an optimistic way as well as the sarcastic way- I'm sure wagtail didn't quite mean that
Questions are such a good thing; if we don't ask questions- we struggle to move forward. Everyone's brains work differently- some of us are left brained, some of us are right. Some of us see things through optimistic eyes, others see things through cynical eyes.
As they say; all horses are individuals, just like all of us. It doesn't hurt to get some opinion and it sometimes provokes a response which nobody is ever going to agree with ( can you imagine how hard it must be, being PM, trying to keep EVERYONE happy
I'm pretty anti-draw rein ( I'm anti- most things because it's just the way I am- I'm a cynic you see!); but equally I try to see things from the other hand too. I like to ask lots of questions as well as answer questions, and if I get a bit of advice that perhaps doesn't seem to make sense, comes across perhaps slightly insultingly etc, I used to snap back. Now; I question it!
By questioning people about things, we are spoiled for choice- nobody is FORCING you to make a decision, but sometimes it does pay to hear what others have to say, even if you don't like it. I've learnt that lesson, I learnt by my mistakes. I never asked enough questions and ended up becoming a poor rider because I had the inability to question WHY and give myself a better understanding.
It also allows us, if the situation arises, to be armed with lots of different ideas when tackling a problem. I get lots of ideas from just reading posts and from forums, books etc which I can use to eliminate problems.
So; sometimes it may seem as people are going at you and nobody likes being told their 'wrong', but sometimes it does pay to keep open and always remain integrative about everything. Never stop asking why!
( You'll soon learn that I love quotes!)
You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
Good ol' Einstein!
OMG sorry but you are massively patronising!!!
Wagtail
Horse servant
I don't think she's being patronising. I thought she was being nice! It just shows how different people perceive the same post differently. It is really difficult on the internet because almost every post can come across as patronising, sarcastic, or plain rude if the reader is looking for it. Another reader who is not, will just see it as friendly advice.
It just shows how different people perceive the same post differently. It is really difficult on the internet because almost every post can come across as patronising, sarcastic, or plain rude if the reader is looking for it. Another reader who is not, will just see it as friendly advice.