Hacking Woes

[bouncing_ball]

I’m hoping for a fresh perspective on this as I’m really fed up! And my confidence is through the floor.

My horse hadn’t done much hacking when I got him 4 years ago. I slowly introduced him to hacking in wide open spaces (including alongside race horses training).

He was a brilliant hack (if a bit slow) for nearly 3 years. Happy to canter behind other horses galloping. Happy to hack solo in open spaces with racehorses in strings all around.

Suddenly changed late December 2023 (I think had hind gut ulcer issues at time, but has been fine for last 12 months).

He’s been unpredictable to hack on home open spaces since. Massively over reactive to other horses, tense and not going forward. Very upset if companions overtake him but barely moving. Stress & tantrums. I’ve done months of quiet walking in company, building back up to cantering. But doesn’t stick. He’s not very safe solo as freaks out sometimes if sees another horse.

Ok away from home. Ok at TREC / EGB.

We are both seasoned - BD / Working Equitation / low level Endurance, TREC etc. I’ve 40 BD medium points with past horses. And regularly taken my horses to racetrack to gallop etc. I’m in mid to late 40’s, he’s my 4th large warmblood.

I’m at my wits end, this IS my local hacking, and I want to happily canter my horse in local open spaces. (Hell he doesn’t like competing at dressage he kind of needs to be a nice hack instead).

I’ve tried a lot with my confidence, I’m okay on other horses, but now anticipating problems with mine & folding into foetal position scared to put my leg on when he’s tense, in anticipation of problems.

I’m on a decent dose of HRT which solved lots of other things but not this.

I’ve tried recommended rider physiologist. Said I have the tools.

I can do controlled breathing / singing / counting backwards. Flex horse, stop & give treats etc.

I’ve got kind patient friends to hack with but hasn’t got consistently better.

What I’ve actually done I think is reinforced my fear over last year.

I’m not sure if I’ve created horse’s issues with lack of clear leadership or if he’s fundamentally undermined my confidence. Or if he’s scared. He’s ok in hand.

He’s fine meeting something scary on road / in woods, I remember how to ride, he doesn’t freak & we deal with it.

There’s nothing physically or digestively wrong with my horse. He’s fine on roads / school / woods / away from home / travelling in lorry.

He was happy as Larry in this environment for a number of years. Now he isn’t. The fact he was happy feels like it should be fixable? I get some horses never solo hack / relax in busy open spaces / behave sensibly on open grass etc. But if he used to, it should be possible?

Any suggestions.

I haven’t had someone else ride him, which would be logical. I haven’t found right person / right other rider to accompany.

 

[Dave's Mam]

Oh I absolutely get how you feel, you're definitely not alone.

 

[Red-1]

I got like this when I had external stresses that were not horse related.

After 2 falls I sold that horse, who immediately went well for the new owners. The issue was me, not her.

I bought an aged cob and have had huge fun with him since. I got my mojo back and bought a youngster. I am having huge fun with him too.

I would now no longer keep a horse that wasn't huge fun.

 

[ihatework]

I’d definitely pay someone experienced to hack him out a few times. If he improves then he is likely feeding off you. If he is still iffy, then given he has historically been a good hack I would very much sudpect he has some low grade pain and stress ulcer type situation going on.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I got like this when I had external stresses that were not horse related.

After 2 falls I sold that horse, who immediately went well for the new owners. The issue was me, not her.

I bought an aged cob and have had huge fun with him since. I got my mojo back and bought a youngster. I am having huge fun with him too.

I would now no longer keep a horse that wasn't huge fun.

That’s an option.

But this WAS my heart horse just over a year ago.

He’s never previously been particularly tricky. He’s always been more whoa & chilled than go.

And he’s good in many ways.

I’m not sure he’d be super easy to sell. He’s lazy. Ok at WE & Trec but not bred for them. Ok at dressage but not keen on competing (super stuffy).

He’s quirky in that he’s a strong personality. He bettered the person I bought him from who had him 3.5-10. And she cycles 70km hill races for fun and black run skis etc. (I didn’t know this when I bought him!).

 

[bouncing_ball]

I’d definitely pay someone experienced to hack him out a few times. If he improves then he is likely feeding off you. If he is still iffy, then given he has historically been a good hack I would very much sudpect he has some low grade pain and stress ulcer type situation going on.

Without writing an essay in justification it’s not pain or ulcers.

The issue is specific to open grassland home hacking.

 

[dorsetladette]

You said you think he had hind gut ulcers - was he treated?

If treated I'd have someone else hack him to break the cycle and then hop back on yourself. X

 

[Sanversera]

Lots of walking out inhand might help.

 

[bouncing_ball]

You said you think he had hind gut ulcers - was he treated?

If treated I'd have someone else hack him to break the cycle and then hop back on yourself. X

Absolutely, that was January 2024 (he’s really obvious when has an issue as tracks wide with right hind).

I’m pretty quick now to catch it, and few weeks of Equishure addresses it. I keep trying to find the perfect hind gut support diet that he won’t get flares.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Lots of walking out inhand might help.

He seems fine in hand. Other than trying to eat the grass. Me on foot and doesn’t seem stressed or anxious.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Without writing an essay in justification it’s not pain or ulcers.

The issue is specific to open grassland home hacking.

It could possibly be that low grade pain pushes him over the edge in this particular scenario re trigger stacking? Or that he is anticipating you tensing up and feeding off of your anxious energy in open spaces?

You say lack of willingness to go forward though, which does make me think ulcers or saddle fit...does he canter okay in locations other than open spaces?

 

[bouncing_ball]

It could possibly be that low grade pain pushes him over the edge in this particular scenario re trigger stacking? Or that he is anticipating you tensing up and feeding off of your anxious energy in open spaces?

You say lack of willingness to go forward though, which does make me think ulcers or saddle fit...does he canter okay in locations other than open spaces?

He’s a bit of a lazy warmblood. Diesel engine type thing. But yes canters normally in following situations

Home arenas
Home woods & tracks
Away arenas
Sand gallops
Away open spaces
Trec rides
Away hacks
Away EGB rides.

It’s not ulcers or saddle fit.

It’s only a very specific location & specific open grass areas in this location issue.

I’m reasonably sure it’s not pain. As I have good eye, do my own bodywork (as well as employ bodyworkers), know him well & he’s very clear when in smallest amount of pain. And I have a good wholistic team of paraprofessionals seeing him frequently.

Saddles checked every few months, , has regular soundness checks. Foot balance ok. Has regular movement assessments and bodywork. I’m not a novice.

 

[Miss_Millie]

He’s a bit of a lazy warmblood. Diesel engine type thing. But yes canters normally in following situations

Home arenas
Home woods & tracks
Away arenas
Sand gallops
Away open spaces
Trec rides
Away hacks
Away EGB rides.

It’s not ulcers or saddle fit.

It’s only a very specific location & specific open grass areas in this location issue.

I’m reasonably sure it’s not pain. As I have good eye, do my own bodywork (as well as employ bodyworkers), know him well & he’s very clear when in smallest amount of pain. And I have a good wholistic team of paraprofessionals seeing him frequently.

Saddles checked every few months, , has regular soundness checks. Foot balance ok. Has regular movement assessments and bodywork. I’m not a novice.

I wasn't suggesting that you are, just that pain is technically impossible to rule out. And because you said the issues began when he had hind gut ulcers, it wouldn't be unreasonable to imagine that the gut could still be compromised. I've read some studies that suggest the gut can take years to fully heal and repopulate the healthy gut flora when it has been significantly damaged e.g. ulcers, hind gut acidosis etc.

But as the cantering issue is limited to open spaces, maybe it is more behavioural. It just seems too much of a coincidence to me that the behaviour changed after ulcers.

 

[fredflop]

Have you tried hunting him?

 

[bouncing_ball]

Have you tried hunting him?

No but

I’m a coward re hunting
He’s not a jumper
He’s not very careful / footsure
He’s barefoot and would need boots to hunt which can be slippery IME.
He’s also not built to hunt or for endurance of any level as he’s got flashy extravagant paces and lacks resilience. He’d be highly likely to break hunting.

 

[I'm Dun]

Without writing an essay in justification it’s not pain or ulcers.

The issue is specific to open grassland home hacking.

Horses dont radically change behaviour for no reason though, and its perfectly possible for an issue to just affect hacking. But you describe a stuffy horse who is dangerous to hack, generally difficult and has "bettered" people. Just because you haven't found it, doesn't mean there's no issue.

The fact that he's very dramatic and obvious with pain is another red flag. He may well be coping with low grade pain, and anything else tips him over the edge.

 

[Ceifer]

Horses dont radically change behaviour for no reason though, and its perfectly possible for an issue to just affect hacking. But you describe a stuffy horse who is dangerous to hack, generally difficult and has "bettered" people. Just because you haven't found it, doesn't mean there's no issue.

The fact that he's very dramatic and obvious with pain is another red flag. He may well be coping with low grade pain, and anything else tips him over the edge.

It’s unfortunate but I do agree with this.
You may never get to the bottom of the issue.
You may be able to get someone to ride him and iron out the problem but the underlying issue might be there still.
It is frustrating and I’ve been there several times.
I sold a horse in similar-ish circumstances. Not a novice ride but I didn’t consider myself a novice. Flew through a 5 stage vetting. Had a great summer but as winter set in the mare had a huge behavioural change. Had me off badly 3 times. Vet came and did the usual checks, nothing to find. I paid a pro to ride her and she still played up but the pro rode her through it. Jumped her round a 1.20 course. On the advice of the pro I sold her as I was fast losing my nerve and my mind.
Next owners had a repeat. Great though the summer and nightmare in the winter. Turned out to be a neuro issue triggered by cold and wind hitting her face.
In hindsight it all fell into place and I was annoyed as I’d had a good vet out and we hadn’t even thought about neuro issues as it didn’t present as typical issues do.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Horses dont radically change behaviour for no reason though, and its perfectly possible for an issue to just affect hacking. But you describe a stuffy horse who is dangerous to hack, generally difficult and has "bettered" people. Just because you haven't found it, doesn't mean there's no issue.

The fact that he's very dramatic and obvious with pain is another red flag. He may well be coping with low grade pain, and anything else tips him over the edge.

But it doesn’t “just affect hacking”.

It’s hacking in one location ONLY.

Which bit of he camps away from home, does orienteering rides , hacks on other routes from home, does pleasure & endurance rides, boxes out for nice hacks, goes to gallops, is schooling medium all politely says low grade pain?

 

[Ceifer]

OP you seem defensive of the advice being given.
From the information given the obvious route to explore is pain.
If the horse is fine doing everything else and you’re confident it’s not pain then the only option is not to hack the horse in the area it doesn’t like going.
I doubt anyone is going to be able to give you an answer on an online forum without knowing the horse or being psychic.

 

[coblets]

How is his footing on the grass? If he’s not confident on the surface because it’s too slippery, then that might result in tipping him over threshold around other horses.

 

[bouncing_ball]

The fact that he's very dramatic and obvious with pain is another red flag. He may well be coping with low grade pain, and anything else tips him over the edge.

He’s not that dramatic.

I had a previous horse that did have low grade pain we couldn’t resolve (kept treating symptoms versus finding underlying issue). He had low threshold (due to underlying pain) and over reacted to additional pain and stress.

This horse is just sensitive & clear about any discomfort, he’s not over dramatic or excessive. There are no supporting indicators of underlying pain.

 

[Jinx94]

I completely understand. For the past two years I have been trying to psych myself up to hacking mine. We used to do plenty of road hacking, including next to a very busy A road and went for miles off road. We had so much fun.

When not hacked regularly, he can be sketchy with his responses to traffic at times. When he's scared, he needs a hand hold but will then take the mick when 'coping'. That's when I need to be firm and keep him moving. He's then golden. However I have a nightmare with my confidence to get him through it. From the ground, not a problem, I'll work with almost anything, but I quickly lose faith in my abilities in the saddle. Have also done a fair bit of therapy, used confidence coaches etc. The only thing that helps is when I get just enough courage to crack on and am then faced with the situation I wanted to avoid. To date (and touch wood!) we have safely got through 100% of those encounters. I'm hoping that we will manage the same this year as currently I'm terrified of hacking on the road/meeting deer/meeting anything he deems 'scary'.

Reading your post, personally I would see if an experienced friend/pro could ride him to see if they have the same issue and take it from there. If they can, would you be able to then borrow a horse so you can hack out together and see him coping? Might help you to break that association too!

 

[bouncing_ball]

OP you seem defensive of the advice being given.
From the information given the obvious route to explore is pain.
If the horse is fine doing everything else and you’re confident it’s not pain then the only option is not to hack the horse in the area it doesn’t like going.
I doubt anyone is going to be able to give you an answer on an online forum without knowing the horse or being psychic.

I’m not particularly defensive, but pain makes no sense. I don’t think people are listening. I’m VERY aware behaviour change is usually pain (and Jan 2024 initial hind gut pain might have been the initial trigger), I’m constantly evaluating for pain and getting wider opinions (owing to my past experiences).

He’s difficult in only ONE location that I hack in.

He’s okay to hack from home in other locations.

He’s fine in same type of ground away from home.

He’s fine to hack in other locations (and he does a lot of away from home events).

He’s schooling medium at home.

He’s competing successfully in Trec & Working Equitation.

He’s been soundness checked by more than one vet.

He’s frequently assessed by physio, chiropractors, saddler, trainer, vet. Who work together holistically.

When he is in pain eg saddle drops a bit low in front / saddler adjusts saddle in a way he doesn’t like, he’s clear about not liking it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Absolutely, that was January 2024 (he’s really obvious when has an issue as tracks wide with right hind).

I’m pretty quick now to catch it, and few weeks of Equishure addresses it. I keep trying to find the perfect hind gut support diet that he won’t get flares.

If he is still getting obvious flares I would suspect that he has low level discomfort, if not actual pain, all the time. I know that hindgut ulcers are very difficult to diagnose and treat. I think it is Tiddlypom whose mare(?) had similar problems and has been successfully treated eventually. I am sure she would tell you about it if a search doesn't bring the thread up.

 

[bouncing_ball]

How is his footing on the grass? If he’s not confident on the surface because it’s too slippery, then that might result in tipping him over threshold around other horses.

That’s a good point. He fell over with me twice on wet grass in hoof boots (away from home) in May 2023.

I’ve been a bit nervy about wet grass & hoof boots since.

The hacking issues appeared like a switch in mid December 2023.

I took hoof boots off for hacking this autumn 2024. He’s not a huge fan of stones (which are minimal). But most of our home hacking is lovely old turf.

There’s not an obvious link between wet grass and his behaviour. He never seemed that bothered about falling over or slipping.

But I did get very cautious of wet or dewy grass in boots from 2023 onwards.

My fears of falling over went, when I stopped hacking in boots this autumn. I’d say minus the boots his grip on wet grass is pretty good. And over time he’s got more surefooted.

 

[webble]

Absolutely, that was January 2024 (he’s really obvious when has an issue as tracks wide with right hind).

I’m pretty quick now to catch it, and few weeks of Equishure addresses it. I keep trying to find the perfect hind gut support diet that he won’t get flares.

Do you know what caused it to start with?

ETA you can get studs for hoof boots

 

[bouncing_ball]

If he is still getting obvious flares I would suspect that he has low level discomfort, if not actual pain, all the time. I know that hindgut ulcers are very difficult to diagnose and treat. I think it is Tiddlypom whose mare(?) had similar problems and has been successfully treated eventually. I am sure she would tell you about it if a search doesn't bring the thread up.

He’s not had a flare since early 2024.

AFAIK I’m all over all thoughts on hind gut treatment on HHO.

He’s on acid buf, sprouted grains, diverse mix of herbs & grasses, oily herbs, good pre & probiotic, home made version of Equinectar, low sugar & starch diet. Long grass in field. Adlib access to forage. Lives out.

I’m reasonably sure I have hind gut issue resolved. Though a sudden change in grass sugars might cause a flare but I’d see it.

He coped fine this summer with 5-6 trec camps where his corral would be on good grass which he’s eat lots of. Which feels like a good sign.

He’s very obvious if having a hind gut flare as he tracks short and wide RH. After 5 days on Equishure he tracks straight. But that’s as antacid is masking symptoms. It’s not a cure.

Increasing numbers of good hindgut bacteria is the solution. By diversity of grasses & herbs and by food they like such as the oily herbs etc.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If he is still getting obvious flares I would suspect that he has low level discomfort, if not actual pain, all the time. I know that hindgut ulcers are very difficult to diagnose and treat. I think it is Tiddlypom whose mare(?) had similar problems and has been successfully treated eventually. I am sure she would tell you about it if a search doesn't bring the thread up.

Yes, that’s me .

Equishure is only ever a sticking plaster for hind gut issues. Remove the sticking plaster (stop the Equishure) and the problems return.

My mare was at the point of PTS for grumpiness due to her hind gut issues when the chiro vet (a qualified vet) suggested that I get the Equibiome test run on her. It was a revelation.

I have sadly since lost her to an unrelated issues, a brain tumour, but I got three good years from her post the Equibiome testing.

OP, have a read of this thread.

Has anyone had the Equibiome test done?

Hi, as title please. Despite a brief improvement (couple of weeks) in summer, Fergus' diarrhoea is still there and he's deteriorating again - not scouring yet but definitely really sloppy cow pats. In desperation, I'm considering getting the Equibiome test done and just wondering if anyone has...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

 

[bouncing_ball]

Do you know what caused it to start with?

The flare in January 2024. We are guessing he ate something toxic. Maybe in field? Mycotoxins? In dead leaves in grass or Haylage maybe?

He wasn’t then on mycosorb A, he has been since then.

Previous to January 2024 he had some hind gut flares which seemed to be grass sugar flush related. I was a bit slower to spot the Jan 2024 flare as wasn’t expecting it.

 

[Miss_Millie]

That’s a good point. He fell over with me twice on wet grass in hoof boots (away from home) in May 2023.

I’ve been a bit nervy about wet grass & hoof boots since.

The hacking issues appeared like a switch in mid December 2023.

I took hoof boots off for hacking this autumn 2024. He’s not a huge fan of stones (which are minimal). But most of our home hacking is lovely old turf.

There’s not an obvious link between wet grass and his behaviour. He never seemed that bothered about falling over or slipping.

But I did get very cautious of wet or dewy grass in boots from 2023 onwards.

My fears of falling over went, when I stopped hacking in boots this autumn. I’d say minus the boots his grip on wet grass is pretty good. And over time he’s got more surefooted.

Any kind of foot soreness in a barefoot horse would suggest some kind of gut imbalance or metabolic issue to me. All of my horses are barefoot, I myself have been through a process of elimination with a footsore horse who now has rock crunching feet over miles of stone tracks out hacking without the need for hoof boots. In the past, issues presented in Winter were due to frosty grass and flushes from periods of mild weather with a lot of rain. I think grass affectedness is becoming increasingly common due to the weather being so inconsistent and the sugar levels being all over the place.

This may all be irrelevant to your situation, but worth exploring. The Osteopathic Vet has some good posts on how gut imbalances can impact the whole horse. In my situation, limiting grass during flushes and frost has helped a lot.

He may also just be worried about falling over on the grass if he has has a couple of falls on that kind of terrain...