Had to bail out yesterday youngster bolted

Yes great quote peteralfred! Maybe the hole in his education was that he'd never cantered out before so when he found himself cantering he was unable to make the link between reins meaning slow in trot and walk to also meaning slow in canter?
I've spent time pondering over him leaving his trusted companion (not a field friend, but the horse he's done 99% of his ridden work with) and I have considered that he is a bit of loner generally, he rarely grazes with others and is very happy to stand on the yard all on his own for hours. So I wonder if maybe in him, the herd "need" isn't so strong in him. Goldenstar, no I wouldn't say he was dominant. He is bottom of the pecking order and is never bolshy to handle.
 
I am not convinced by the schooling angle. Bob the nota cob is far from being a schooled horse,he is however a horse that has now seen a bit of life. You can apply the most wonderfull schooled aids to a horse that is about to scarper and head for home,(the sort of stuff that would make Carl Hester jelous) and he would still bolt, yet I have watched zulu stable lads ride the fittest maddest thoroughbreds back from the gallops ,on a headcollar. And these beasts turned into trecking ponys. Its all about trust not schooling.
 
Just wondered sometimes dominant ones overreact when faced with thing that scares them.
I think the not cantering before thing might well be what triggered the bolt, I am trying to remember ever having a very young one that left the companion and I can't I do remember falling off when a youngster was scared by a peasant in the pouring rain who slipped and fell it took off at the gallop but turned and came back to us .
I don't envy you decideing what to do now good luck with it.
 
Goldenstar said:
t I do remember falling off when a youngster was scared by a peasant in the pouring rain who slipped and fell it took off at the gallop but turned and came back to us .
.
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Bloody peasants..................edited to add, sorry ,my bad! ...I couldnt resist it.
 
Pigeons and pheasants! I think he'll have to go goldenstar. I think if he was sarcoid free I would work with what we had, and also on top of the fact that I have another very nice horse already, it seems that he will have to be returned to his owner. I expect as he has 5 sarcoids that he will probably get more. I'm happy to keep him for now, but I don't think I'll be riding him. I will probably long rein him round the route just to end it all on a goodish note. I am good at longreining, and may go for the extra strong leverage option of clipping from roller to bit knowing that if it came to it I could easily pull him round on a circle.
 
Yeah bloody peasants he was busy tugging his forelock and spooked my horse !
I walked into that , pheasant I meanlt just to clarify.
 
I too am a great fan of long reining,up to a point however. And that is the point where I would rather be whispering in his ear that he is being a total tit and that I am on his back whether he likes it or not.
 
We're going to have to disagree, Mike. How do you develop 'trust', communication and understanding with a horse without working with it? And what is working with a horse other than schooling?

OP, your path sounds sensible, given the entirety of the situation. If your circumstances were different perhaps it would be the right choice for you, but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should.
 
Goldenstar said:
Yeah bloody peasants he was busy tugging his forelock and spooked my horse !
I walked into that , pheasant I meanlt just to clarify.
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Naah you cant cop out like that ,you are one of camerons mates ,tory toff opressing opressed irish draughts. Editors note, I think Bob the nota cob has just hacked into us.
 
TarrSteps said:
We're going to have to disagree, Mike. How do you develop 'trust', communication and understanding with a horse without working with it? And what is working with a horse other than schooling?

OP, your path sounds sensible, given the entirety of the situation. If your circumstances were different perhaps it would be the right choice for you, but just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should.
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OK Ts but for me ,schooling is not done in a school. It is done anywhere and every where. Again I doubt if we are really at crossed purposes.For me ,every time I sit on a horse,it should be the better for it.(doesnt necessarily happen ,but this is my ideal). The truth of your argument lies in one little word , WITH. How do you develop 'trust', communication and understanding with a horse without working with it?. Its that ,working with it that trips so many folk up!
 
although I really feel for OP, my thoughts are also that there must be a hole in the schooling (hey, it's a young horse, of course there are holes, its not meant unkindly....).

Even if the horse has been good to ride until this point, probably some in-hand work to get him used to life out and about hacking wouldn't go amiss. It doesn't have to be long lining, it can be simple leading in hand or, if you have a reliable 2nd horse, ride & lead from the 2nd horse.

Personally, I sort of see there as being 2 different things - having the horse understand your aids and also getting the horse exposed to enough stuff that they don't over-react when you're out and about (otherwise if there is an over-reaction, the young horse may well just block out the aids, even though in "normal" circumstances he would have understood them). For the exposure stuff, I'm a massive fan of in-hand work/ ride & lead. I do miles upon miles on foot with my horses before I ride them out - some alone, some with a companion - then getting the companion to go away while I lead them, etc, etc. Might be worth a thought for OP's horse?
 
Kelpie said:
although I really feel for OP, my thoughts are also that there must be a hole in the schooling (hey, it's a young horse, of course there are holes, its not meant unkindly....).

Even if the horse has been good to ride until this point, probably some in-hand work to get him used to life out and about hacking wouldn't go amiss. It doesn't have to be long lining, it can be simple leading in hand or, if you have a reliable 2nd horse, ride & lead from the 2nd horse.

Personally, I sort of see there as being 2 different things - having the horse understand your aids and also getting the horse exposed to enough stuff that they don't over-react when you're out and about (otherwise if there is an over-reaction, the young horse may well just block out the aids, even though in "normal" circumstances he would have understood them). For the exposure stuff, I'm a massive fan of in-hand work/ ride & lead. I do miles upon miles on foot with my horses before I ride them out - some alone, some with a companion - then getting the companion to go away while I lead them, etc, etc. Might be worth a thought for OP's horse?
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Sound advice, I just cant do the walking(arthritis)Incidentaly I do find that horses are remakably adept at spotting ones fraelties for good or bad,. Bob has now made it his mission in life to stand so close to the mounting block that his poor decrepid rider can get on.He tries to help,bless him.WHY? Because he is a thinking animate member of god creation.
 
I'm very confused. . .where did I say schooling only happens in a school? I think I said the opposite - that we develop horses by educating them, not simply by 'trusting' them or not trusting them. Trust implies an element of luck - you trust nothing will go wrong, you trust that the horse will behave appropriately - but schooling brings a more reliable element to it - you know what the horse will do, the horse knows what the rider (not just the one on the horse - it's not good horsemanship to make a horse only you can ride) will do. Of course there is always an element of risk and unpredictability with horses, but I'm not all that keen putting my faith or safety in the hooves of an animal with a brain the size of my fist. ;) Aside from the obvious issues, I think it's unfair because when something inevitably goes wrong people feel personally let down, as if the horse has broken their trust simply by, well, being a horse. ;)

The horse's trust in the rider is a different aspect but one I think is also dependent on not only building good experiences, but also identifying and addressing the week areas through training. A confident horse should be confident in his own skills but this only comes with time, training and experience.

As an aside, the horse I mentioned earlier - also a Highland, interestingly - is the most naturally unspooky horse. She is fine walking over tarps, around flappy stuff, with tractors etc and is always in the middle of activity. You can rub a plastic flag all over her, no problem. Except for this very specific one movement. Then she's gone. She has not been injured or abused, although she has been in a field all her life so unexposed to the world. And since she is going to be a kid's horse eventually there is no margin, in the long term, for 'managing' her tiny glitch, it has to be fixed so if a child inadvertently makes that one movement, the pony doesn't cut and run. If you would see the pony in any situation the reaction would come as a surprise but I know it's there so she won't be going out in the world in any circumstance that might trigger it until we have a better handle on it. Of course, once the reaction is manageable under controlled circumstances it will have to be tested under pressure, but I have a pretty good idea how that might end at this point!

Anyway, not really pertinent to the original discussion, just to the idea that it can look like all the boxes are ticked. . .until you find another box.
 
springtime13 said:
No way Amymay, he lived as a companion and only knew the very basics - leading/ picking feet/ grooming. He is owned by my mum's best friend so know for sure he wasn't started previously.
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For me it just sounds like a green horse in an unknown situation lacking confidence... I'd long rein him out to the same spot with a person on foot at his head...back and forth, back and forth till it becomes boring... For such a green horse, this is just a standard set back, not indicative of a bad horse.
 
TarrSteps said:
I'm very confused. . .where did I say schooling only happens in a school? I think I said the opposite - that we develop horses by educating them, not simply by 'trusting' them or not trusting them. Trust implies an element of luck - you trust nothing will go wrong, you trust that the horse will behave appropriately - but schooling brings a more reliable element to it - you know what the horse will do, the horse knows what the rider (not just the one on the horse - it's not good horsemanship to make a horse only you can ride) will do. Of course there is always an element of risk and unpredictability with horses, but I'm not all that keen putting my faith or safety in the hooves of an animal with a brain the size of my fist. ;) Aside from the obvious issues, I think it's unfair because when something inevitably goes wrong people feel personally let down, as if the horse has broken their trust simply by, well, being a horse. ;)

The horse's trust in the rider is a different aspect but one I think is also dependent on not only building good experiences, but also identifying and addressing the week areas through training. A confident horse should be confident in his own skills but this only comes with time, training and experience.

As an aside, the horse I mentioned earlier - also a Highland, interestingly - is the most naturally unspooky horse. She is fine walking over tarps, around flappy stuff, with tractors etc and is always in the middle of activity. You can rub a plastic flag all over her, no problem. Except for this very specific one movement. Then she's gone. She has not been injured or abused, although she has been in a field all her life so unexposed to the world. And since she is going to be a kid's horse eventually there is no margin, in the long term, for 'managing' her tiny glitch, it has to be fixed so if a child inadvertently makes that one movement, the pony doesn't cut and run. If you would see the pony in any situation the reaction would come as a surprise but I know it's there so she won't be going out in the world in any circumstance that might trigger it until we have a better handle on it. Of course, once the reaction is manageable under controlled circumstances it will have to be tested under pressure, but I have a pretty good idea how that might end at this point!

Anyway, not really pertinent to the original discussion, just to the idea that it can look like all the boxes are ticked. . .until you find another box.
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Oh I am so going to get a kicking when I next meet up with the lovely intelegent ts. bUT i STILL AM NOT IN AGREEMENT.Highlands are gits. simplez . They are prone to take command it is in their blood. I do realise that TS didnt imply that schooling took place only inschools . I am far to aware of her insight into horses to make such a mistake.But ultimately it is not a mattger of schooling ,itis a matter of trust.
 
Mike007 said:
Naah you cant cop out like that ,you are one of camerons mates ,tory toff opressing opressed irish draughts. Editors note, I think Bob the nota cob has just hacked into us.
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No you have that wrong I have never been into posh boys In Fact my OH is Irish and I have had him in draught for years irish men and horses for that matter are most loveable when tired .
 
Mike007 - how do you gain a horse's trust or put your trust in a horse if you have not schooled the horse? How do you learn how a horse reacts to things if you have not schooled it and how does a horse learn to trust you if you have not put it in certain situations and taught it how to react? Surely trust is gained on either side by schooling.
 
Random question, and I'm sorry if this is wrong, but is Mike007 drunk? He's typing mildly erratically and has just posted about shagging some book character in NL...
 
LynH said:
Mike007 - how do you gain a horse's trust or put your trust in a horse if you have not schooled the horse? How do you learn how a horse reacts to things if you have not schooled it and how does a horse learn to trust you if you have not put it in certain situations and taught it how to react? Surely trust is gained on either side by schooling.
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A good point,How do you. Well for starter Idont believe in schooling as opposed to getting them out in the real world . Let them see for them selves. You sit on a horse ,he trusts you ,or he doesnt . How simple is that.
 
springtime13 said:
and may go for the extra strong leverage option of clipping from roller to bit knowing that if it came to it I could easily pull him round on a circle.
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personally I've found that having them through roller to bit gives you less turning power when you need it quickly and can cause them to go out through their shoulder.

I think this chap got spooked and then spooked some more when he was in a different gait-he may have just not realised he could do that with someone on him or maybe he just realised his own strength. I agree with Queenbee, its a young horse set back and not indicative of a bad horse.
 
peteralfred said:
personally I've found that having them through roller to bit gives you less turning power when you need it quickly and can cause them to go out through their shoulder.

I think this chap got spooked and then spooked some more when he was in a different gait-he may have just not realised he could do that with someone on him or maybe he just realised his own strength. I agree with Queenbee, its a young horse set back and not indicative of a bad horse.
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While i agree its not indicitive of a bad horse, there has only been one incident. id still tread carefully with him if he'll bog off in fright at high speed looking for home away from his steady companions, he needs to feel secure and safe with the people and horses he's with for hacking to be fairly safe, its mabe just going to take him a wee bit longer to get there in his head. I do think schooling will help with this and will be time well spent regaining his trust and building the relationship, be it in the arena and a safe enclosed field to begin with before hacking out again, and id personally use my voice all the time to work with and reassure this horse, in the event it gets knarly outside again .
 
I'd agree completely with both ideas above.

With the rein through the roller, it often has the effect of folding the neck up with a green horse, forcing it out over the outside shoulder. When I'm in trouble an opening rein is my friend. I put the lines through long loops if I'm doing something that might get us in a tangle.

I would also agree this was hardly an unusual or even completely unexpected situation. (Unless the horse really did run blind rather than just scared.) It was the circumstances that made it so dramatic - if he'd spooked and gone ten steps across a school it would hardly have invited comment. But it's happened now and will require some work and a fair bit of mental fortitude to overcome. Plus there is the risk - none of us actually saw the incident or have worked with the horse - that there IS more going on. I don't think, on the back of this one situation, the horse is a write off by any means BUT making a decision about whether to keep a horse or not has to be done with all the information - it's a separate conversation from one about the running home.

I only say this because there is a lot of pressure in the horse world to 'never give up', no matter what. I think people might be surprised how often very good, successful riders shrug their shoulders and move on. If someone does not really want/want to work with a horse it's often best for everyone concerned to go another way with it.
 
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