Hand position??

[scheherazade]

A billion years ago, when I learnt to ride in a riding school, I was always taught to hold the reins vertically with the knuckles facing outwards (as though holding a mug of coffee). As far as I am aware, this is still taught today. However I see a lot of pro riders, especially show jumpers, holding their reins horizontally with the knuckles facing upwards (like riding a bike)

This got me wondering, what effect does this changing of hand position have on the contact, and why / under what circumstances do they do it? Genuinely curious about this one!!

Thanks

 

[PaddyMonty]

It locks your arm particularly at the elbow making it all far less soft and flexible. Often used with a strong horse. I'm not saying its right or wrong, just is

 

[scheherazade]

Thank you, I knew there had to be a reason, just couldn't figure out what it was! And my dressing gown cord wasn't giving anything away when I tried to work it out!

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

"motorbike hands" are one of my pet hates....look awful and normally the sign of a very strong rider. I don't think you can have a true connection if you ride with your hands like that.

 

[scheherazade]

Had I not seen so many pro riders doing it I might not have questioned it and just dismissed it out of hand (pardon the pun!) as incorrect / bad / different training but they must clearly have been doing it for a reason. Admittedly most times I have seen it have been in front of a fence so Juno's answer makes perfect sense (as they usually do)

 

[Santa_Claus]

There is actually an article in this (last!) weeks h&h about 'soft hands' and in turn bad hands!

 

[scheherazade]

Thanks S_C (*shuffles off to do more reading, hoping not to get a blister on my finger whilst doing so!*)

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Had I not seen so many pro riders doing it I might not have questioned it and just dismissed it out of hand (pardon the pun!) as incorrect / bad / different training but they must clearly have been doing it for a reason. Admittedly most times I have seen it have been in front of a fence so Juno's answer makes perfect sense (as they usually do)

Well I only know about it in dressage of course. In Germany sometimes you see *some* auction-type riders ride like that - the stereotype of the 'German strong rider' (in a derogatory way!).

 

[scheherazade]

It must be very difficult to ride in the auction, no? You'd have to make the horse look as good as possible in just a few minutes and not be able to put the months of schooling that the horse probably needs. Not a job for me (plus I am neither brave enough nor confident enough to get a loads of horses I don't know)

 

[kerilli]

"motorbike hands" are one of my pet hates....look awful and normally the sign of a very strong rider. I don't think you can have a true connection if you ride with your hands like that.

ditto this, my trainer calls them 'piano hands' and was absolutely incensed a few years ago when the front cover of an FEI publication had a close-up of a rider's piano hands!
i think if you have your hands like that you cannot develop feel, you can't feel the horse's tongue under the bit. it makes your hands, unwittingly, far stronger, because it crosses the radius and ulna bones and stiffens the wrists, and makes the hands more backwards-thinking. it also makes the elbows fly outwards instead of being neatly supported beside the torso.

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Ditto what Kerilli said. I remember when my trainer in Germany spent *ages* working on my thumb position. Yes that's right, the thumb -- in order to avoid undue tension in the whole arm, which would be consequently reflected in the contact, the thumb had to be held 'correctly and classically', let alone the hand I have no doubt I would have been shot there and then if I had ever ridden with piano/motorbike hands

 

[TarrSteps]

Are we talking dressage or strictly jumping riders here? In dressage, I don't think you'll see anyone "good" riding with a "turned" hand but lots of jumper riders do ride often with even up to a 45 degree hand (not flat, unless, as above, they're in trouble!) and in fact American equitation/hunter/jumper riders are taught to have the thumb every so slightly to the inside as a "neutral" position when jumping.

The exercise of letting the thumb "fall out" or at least having the feel that it can, is very useful in softening the arm but I wouldn't necessarily say someone riding with the thumb slightly together is necessarily producing a hard feel. it is almost always a sign of slumping though! (Do as I say, not as I do .. . . )

The hand turned right over, with the fingers down, is a another matter. Especially with a bent wrist. We nastily refer to them as "Little Rabbit Fru Fru hands" after a particularly annoying nursery rhyme with accompanying "rabbit" miming actions.

 

[kerilli]

Are we talking dressage or strictly jumping riders here? In dressage, I don't think you'll see anyone "good" riding with a "turned" hand but lots of jumper riders do ride often with even up to a 45 degree hand (not flat, unless, as above, they're in trouble!) and in fact American equitation/hunter/jumper riders are taught to have the thumb every so slightly to the inside as a "neutral" position when jumping.

The exercise of letting the thumb "fall out" or at least having the feel that it can, is very useful in softening the arm but I wouldn't necessarily say someone riding with the thumb slightly together is necessarily producing a hard feel. it is almost always a sign of slumping though! (Do as I say, not as I do .. . . )

The hand turned right over, with the fingers down, is a another matter. Especially with a bent wrist. We nastily refer to them as "Little Rabbit Fru Fru hands" after a particularly annoying nursery rhyme with accompanying "rabbit" miming actions.

what do you mean by having 'the thumb "fall out"' please? fall up and away from vertical (so, bringing the elbows in even more, fingernails pointing upwards?)

FB, i have never had anyone say anything much about my thumb position (other than that it should be pointing forward along the rein, not tucked around it) - i really hope that's right otherwise that's something else i need to work on!

 

[scheherazade]

...The exercise of letting the thumb "fall out" or at least having the feel that it can, is very useful in softening the arm but I wouldn't necessarily say someone riding with the thumb slightly together is necessarily producing a hard feel. it is almost always a sign of slumping though! (Do as I say, not as I do .. . . )

I am sure that somewhere in dim memory (unfortunately far too many of my memories are dim these days) I have a vague recollection of being told to turn my thumb in the direction I was turning - almost pointing it in the direction I wanted to travel. Bit like hitch hiking I guess. Couldn't tell you if it made my hands any softer though, or why I was told that

It was mainly jumping riders I have seen do this, especially in front of a fence

 

[TarrSteps]

Kerrili, yes, the thumb on top, as if carrying a tray on your fingernails (does that make sense?) It's a really interesting feeling. I had a very good position oriented dressage coach (not that you could tell from me these days! ) who used it as an exercise to open the shoulders and bring the elbows in softly, then you keep the arm in the same position/feel and turn the hand back "upright" again, but with the feeling you *could* let them fall to the outside again, rather than the more common feeling that they might fall to the inside. I'm sure it's to counteract that much more common habit, but, as I said, it's an interesting one to try and I often use it as a check if I think I'm locking my arm - "Could I let the thumb fall out right now if I had to" sort of thing.

 

[kerilli]

TS, thanks, i see... right, i'm going to be working on that now then, as my shoulders are still my worst thing and that might help, thankyou!
OP, i think if a jump rider does it in in front of a fence it might be a momentary block to try to contain the canter, not always particularly beneficial though...

 

[Halfstep]

Hand position is something that so many riders struggle with, and is a real key to being effective and sitting properly, for sure. One thing I've found in teaching is how many riders allow their reins to get longer and longer, losing any true connection, but without realising it is happening. I think this is a mixture of a bad hand position and a lack of core stability (being pulled forward out of the saddle). If the hand isn't in a good position and the thumb held properly, the reins will pull through unless the rider grips - which then stiffens the elbow and shoulder.
My hand position naughty is letting them come too high.

 

[TarrSteps]

Her other trick was to make me put my reins in one hand and my other hand in my opposite back pocket. She had a million little "diy" training checks like that but I only got to have intermittent lessons with her as she wasn't teaching at all anymore, she'd moved on (like so many do) to dog training. A real shame - one of those very cool horsemen that just get fed up with the life/industry/people and go away, taking all their hard won info with them.

 

[scheherazade]

Thanks all, lots of interesting points and useful insights

 

[TarrSteps]

On the jumper rider front, just to qualify a bit, if we're talking on course, then people do sometimes end up doing things that aren't "perfect" just to get the job done. Yes, you should shorten your reins so you don't have to turn the hand over etc, but in the heat of the moment, if you've had to surrender the rein a bit, you have to just do "something" and hope it works. Habit is a different issue and obviously getting into good habits is key but if you're watching people jump GPs with thousands at stake (or riders that aren't that good!) then occasionally what you see are people getting the job done.

 

[Rouletterose]

Hand position is something that so many riders struggle with, and is a real key to being effective and sitting properly, for sure. One thing I've found in teaching is how many riders allow their reins to get longer and longer, losing any true connection, but without realising it is happening. I think this is a mixture of a bad hand position and a lack of core stability (being pulled forward out of the saddle). If the hand isn't in a good position and the thumb held properly, the reins will pull through unless the rider grips - which then stiffens the elbow and shoulder.
My hand position naughty is letting them come too high.

That reminds me when I used to teach a million years ago....I would put an elastic band around the rein to make pupils keep their hands in the correct place on the rein.

My biggest fault is allowing my inside rein to come up slightly sometimes on turning (although according to PKarl, this is not a problem) but my instructor insists both hands have to stay at the same level at all times

I agree with you HS that reins slipping all the time is all to do with core stability and once your pupil is really strong in their core, it doesn't happen.

 

[JessandCharlie]

TarrSteps, thanks for that, I'll be trying later My hands are fine(ish, passable really ) if I'm conscious of them, but as soon as I start concentrating on something else they tend to turn in a bit

In fact, I feel a total position overhaul is in order

J&C

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

TarrSteps and Kerilli, my problem with my thumb is that it was pressed flat against the rein (obviously it should be on top and all that). In fact, it should be far more relaxed and gently resting on the rein, not lifted off it, but not resting totally flat against the rein either. If you pretend you are holding a rein, just try to press the thumb flat on your fist, and then try to relax it - you'll feel the difference in the whole of your arm all the way up to the shoulder. Nobody had ever told me before.

 

[TarrSteps]

I do the opposite, I push the ball of my thumb down too much.

So many things to think about . . .

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

In medio stat virtus

Between you and me, TS, we might achieve an acceptable thumb position.

 

[KatB]

Interesting thread!

I have the normal habit of turning my thumbs inwards, which I have known is wrong, but never considered a HUGE problem as it was never really commented on by various trainers in recent years. My old boss used to make us ride with our fingernails pointing upwards and thumbs to the outside, so you COULDN'T lock you elbox, and in turn had a much better contact.

After a recent lesson, where I was immediately picked up on this (handlebar position) with my hands, and corrected, I immediately got a much better contact and my mares way of gong improved. Since changing it, I now have an almost always consistent, level contact down both reins, and can feel it a lot better so can correct it. I have also got a much better control over her shoulders, and can contain spooks etc! It is amazing how much a "small" change can make a HUGE difference...

 

[stencilface]

My lazy left hand has a nasty habit of motorbiking, normally under duress, but sometimes from forgetting/laziness

 

[Saratoga]

I agree it's a bad habit, and the contact you have with the horse's mouth is compromised when the hand turns over.

I think it depends on which side of the neck the end of the reins are. I always have the end of my reins over to the right of their withers, and find this seems to pull my left hand over with it.

 

[Horsemad12]

My left hand slips back and as I am right handed that would fit with the left side of the body being weaker.

My instructor makes me ride for a few minutes holding the rein the wrong way (more like you would hold a lead rein) which makes you more aware of the hand / rein as it feels so wrong and then change back.

It does work! I guess the thumbs out is a similar principle?

 

[JessandCharlie]

TS, I've been and experimented with the thumb thing, and the contact was SO much better! Much more consistent, which is Ozzy's weakest point very pleased

J&C