Handeling and Breaking a 2 ½ year old Quarab

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AshleyCurtis

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Hello all!
I recently received a black 2 ½ year old 14hh Quarab mare that had been handled 4 or 5 times in her life. I use to breed and break horses with my dad as a child and now at 27 this will be my first horse I do by myself. I have a wonderful support system at the barn I work at but I'm a firm believer in learning as much as you can and as many ways to do something as possible. I started a YouTube Channel so that my dad and my friends overseas can watch her progress (you can check it out if you like: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCt8PHJQR7PQb-ZcPtkZ118g )

What I'm looking for is tips, tricks, games and things to do for sacking out and breaking babies. I've done a fair few things with her and do more and more every day. I spend about 3 hours a day with her and try and get people to film as much of it as I can.

Thank you so much for your help and input! have a great day!!
 
You may get a lot of people saying you don't need to do so much, in the UK generally starting horses is left until 3 or 4.

As a two and a half year old, fairly unhandled, I would just be getting her halter broken, leading, tying, ground tying, good to handle, feet, take a roller, blanket, saddle, load and walk over poles, obstacles, and that would be it, the other 23 and a bit hours a day she'd be out doing whatever horses do with their free time :)
 
She was quite feral when I got her and still really struggles with is her front legs below the knee and her hinds below the hock. When I use a long object to touch them (whips or canes) she doesn't care it's just my hand she fusses over. I try to just hold her knee a bit each day but I feel like she has come so far with every other aspect and her legs are a real struggle.

Most of the time is spent grooming and just hanging out in new places. Stalls, common areas of the farm that have plenty going on, walking together to find grass, watching people having lessons and such. The 'training' aspect at this point in her life in limited to 5/10 min intervals mixed in with wandering around. I usually ask something of her (moving off of pressure, walking over something strange, putting on something new) then once she has accepted it (lick and chew or become totally calm) then we move on to doing nothing again.

I hope this makes sense. I feel like there are a not of brackets in there that might be confusing sorry! In the YouTube videos you can see the actual 'work' being done and the film time is usually the duration of time we actually work on that subject. At the beginning, just over a week ago, I could barely touch her so the time spent was much shorter with more time with her spent alone. Now that she is comfortable with me being around the time spent with me is longer and we do a few games a day.

I refer to the challenges or new requests I put on her as games. Things like letting a plastic bag touch you all over, walking over trot poles, working in the round yard, letting me touch your legs, putting on a rug. If a game seems too hard or scary I will move on to a new game and think of a way to make that game easier or more calm. I try to avoid pushing a game too far/hard or fast I feel like that's how you make emotional scars. I know that style works for some but not me.

I'm not looking to get on her right away or anything what I'm looking to do is bring her up to speed. When we bread our own foals we touched them all the time from the day they where born to the day they left our property. I've never been in a situation where I had to teach a baby that people are ok and not scary. She's coming along like a champ I'm just looking to keep her engaged and make her 'bomb proof' before I ever get on.
 
Sorry another vote for actually at this age she should be handled, led, feet done and then out in a field to be a horse. She is too young to be doing anything else.

Edited to add had a quick peek at the YouTube bit - 'Luna working in the indoor' - having a 2 year old walking a 5/6m circle on a lead, then over poles, in my professional opinion, is simply asking way too much of young joints and limbs.
 
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You've had her a week. You are rushing things, I'm afraid, if you are concerned that she still won't let you touch her lower legs. I think you are setting yourself and her too many goals for this stage, and should slow down and just let her get to know you and her new life. She was practically feral and now she's in a busy stable being worked on every day. She must be very confused by the change.

I'm in the UK, I wouldn't be looking to do anything except groom her until she was at least three.


Having said that, I do like your tone, you sound enquiring and kind :)
 
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Just to make sure I'n not worrying anyone I have spoken to 3 independent vets and 1 farrier about working and workload for a 2 ½ year old. When it comes to bones and joints I've heard mostly the same thing, between the ages of 2 ½ to 6 years old your horse is growing and will be affected by workload. I was put on to this article by one of the vets to talk about bone growth a bit ( http://www.goodhorsemanship.com.au/Riding Age/ridingage.html ) I understand that some people believe that horses will be lame if you touch them under the age of 4 and others 5 or even 6. The fact is for me, I have been to many countries and seen people break horses all ages (they are saddle broke at 6 months in Mongolia and up to 5 years in Canada) It's a call I wanted to be made by a veterinarian and preventing her from pulling load, being ridden heavily or doing canter work before the age of 3 ⅓ has been the call they have made. I don't think I'll be riding her before the age of 3 ¾ or 4.

On another note I don't think that walking her around each day, grooming her, walking her over strange objects and taking her to new places is going to be too much for her considering she lives in a pretty small paddock where getting up to a canter would be hard. Now that we have discussed what age is correct and incorrect to do things I would like to go back to things that people use as tools to help relief stress levels in there horses. Sacking out/new things to introduce. I want to activate her mind more than anything.

I hope I haven't upset anyone and I respect that everyone has an opinion. I'm thankful that you've taken the time to answer and I'm glad you took the time. :D
 
she lives in a pretty small paddock where getting up to a canter would be hard.
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My heart sinks at this for a baby. Can you not find her somewhere to live where she can get proper movement in a group of young horses who will gain in strength and athleticism through play?

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with using 'stress relieving' and 'mind activating' games/training in a horse of that age as a substitute for proper turnout.

I am afraid that you might not find a lot of people on a British horse site who do.

Is there a U.S. forum that might be more on your wavelength? I think from your use of the term 'sacking out' You are US?
 
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The video of working in the indoor is far too much for a 2.5 year old, never mind one that is virtually unhandled. That's a high pressure, stressful exercise.

I agree with others that the focus should be handling, grooming, touching feet and legs etc rather than anything more challenging. She is a very baby shape in your videos too. On the first one she looks very bum high. I would not be looking to put a saddle on any time soon.

I think walking in hand out and about can be nice, once the horse is settled. It's a good way to see new things. Depends on the horse though.

I think you're doing the right thing in having short periods of "work", although 10 minutes is a bit too long so soon in my view. You have all the time in the world so there's no need to rush progress. Treat the horse like it is a weanling. Ignore the age and just start at the beginning :)
 
she lives in a pretty small paddock where getting up to a canter would be hard.
Read more at http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...g-a-2-%BD-year-old-Quarab#TUbWoet6yEzzkY6Y.99

I think this will be far more detrimental to the development of a young horse than doing some light in hand education, research has shown to build up strong bone, tendon and ligaments they need to be actively using themselves from a young age to condition and strengthen every part of the body, not even being able to canter, let alone gallop freely is so sad for any horse, for a youngster it is potentially going to cause problems later, they would be so much better off turned out in a field with a group to grow and develop in a more natural way.
 
Turn her out in a nice big field with natural shelter, a nice stream and some friends, including youngsters. She will be able to do her own thing for a year, with a bit of handling every day if you feel you must. If all you have is a tiny paddock, look elsewhere, horses need friends of their own sort.
 
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Hi Ashley

It's really nice to hear someone so positive about finding out what's best for their horse! however, I'm afraid I'm with the others - I've seen a lot of people do what you're doing, and trying to introduce their baby horse to lots of stuff very early on. What you'd expect is a nice quiet horse that has a lovely bond - what actually what happens is that the horse is indeed unafraid, but often the horse goes completely stale, is disinterested in people, lacks respect for others, is bolshy, and just generally really quite awkward. IME they tend to end up hunting or something because they're too bloody awkward to school.

Contrastingly, I hvae a friend who breeds foals, and does absolutely nothing with them - they're lucky if they get a headcollar on before 4, but they're around horses who are working. They get broken in at 4 over maybe 8 weeks, but then get nearly a year off. The whole herd are DESPERATE to work, they're running up to you in the field, wanting fuss - I even did some training with one of them loose in the field in the end, he was so desperate to do something fun! but this is because he's been allowed to be a horse, first and foremost.

I know you're not doing anything physically difficult for her, but I think what people are saying is that there's a lot of psychological development that your horse can only do by growing up, with other horses.

It's a bit like the same way you wouldn't make a child go to school at 2 - they need maximum time to play and be unstructured, and not have to do anything.

Good luck to you!
 
p.s. I'm interested to hear what you mean by 'sacking out'? We don't use that term in the UK, and i've only heard it as meaning the US practice of tying them to a pole and waving sacks around them to teach them to stand still! But I'm sure you don't mean that.
 
I'm sorry guys, I think I'm out.
I've spent a lot of time over the years taking information from all kinds of humans in different disciplines. Going to clinics, shows, volunteering and working. I've worked 20-40 hours a week (paid as a profession) for 10 years and this is the first time I've tried to use a forum for information gathering. Unfortunately with too many contradicting opinions being placed in front of me at one time I think it's a bit too much for my brain to take.
I'm sorry I've take up your time but I think I'm going to stick with finding people I can talk to face to face that I know have education and experience in the field.
Thanks again
 
AshleyCurtis said:
I'm sorry guys, I think I'm out.
I've spent a lot of time over the years taking in gathering. Unfortunately with too many contradicting opinions being placed in front of me at one time I think it's a bit too much for my brain to take.
I'm sorry I've take up your time but I think I'm going to stick with finding people I can talk to face to face that I know have education and experience in the field.
Thanks again
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Can I ask why you posted on a UK site instead of a US one as your first foray into using a forum? Surely it was to obtain different points of view?

By the way, all the people who have given you advice on this thread have experience and education in the field.
 
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Yep, I was afraid that would happen ........... its happened before, and it will happen again.

I fear that Youtube has a lot of stuff that is educational ........ but not in the way the producer intended.

When video first came out a young mother-to-be in our office declared her intention to video the birth process ....... oh the innocence of youth lol.
 
As far as I can see, the folks who posted were pretty much in accord, so really I think OP was looking for approbation, I have seen some US handlers on youtube, they may be eye-opening, but not really "good education"
 
At risk of sounding thick, what is a Quarab? Please don't tell me that the ridiculous fashion of calling mongrel dogs stupid names has now spread to horses too..
 
Moomin1 said:
Oh jeez. The world is going mad. Do these horses fetch the same extortionate sort of ridiculous prices that the fashionable mongrel dogs do?
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Nope, they don't make a huge amount untrained.
There is actually a Quarab registry.
They actually make pretty nice horses, your all round type, like UK native large breeds x arab.

Quarterlingers exist too, and for some odd reason people go nuts over them :(
 
Moomin1 said:
At risk of sounding thick, what is a Quarab? Please don't tell me that the ridiculous fashion of calling mongrel dogs stupid names has now spread to horses too..
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Of course :D I had to look up Warlanders the other day. Thought it was actually a pretty cool name for a crossbred :o


The very best one, is an American 'purebred' Shetland looks like a hackney, would that be a Shackney in reality? ;) :D
 
Morgan123 said:
Hi Ashley

It's really nice to hear someone so positive about finding out what's best for their horse! however, I'm afraid I'm with the others - I've seen a lot of people do what you're doing, and trying to introduce their baby horse to lots of stuff very early on. What you'd expect is a nice quiet horse that has a lovely bond - what actually what happens is that the horse is indeed unafraid, but often the horse goes completely stale, is disinterested in people, lacks respect for others, is bolshy, and just generally really quite awkward. IME they tend to end up hunting or something because they're too bloody awkward to school.



Good luck to you!
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totally disagree with you. I do lots of stuff from very early on. Far from going completely stale I have found the youngsters love learning more and more. They are far from awkward and don't lack respect as I don't allow them to be bolshy. I just end up with nice, easy going horses all ready to ride. I don't end up with problems such as my horse is scared of low flying aircraft, children's playgrounds, lorries, dogs, tractors or anything else that seems to cause problems. They have all grown up having been there, done that. As an example my 9 mo is already trained to pressure washers, tractors, trailers, quad bikes, welders, angle grinders, chainsaws and the cement mixer and walking calmly through herds of loose cattle and sheep on the road. All the things that will form part of his everyday life. He spends the rest of his day with other horses learning to live with them but at the end of the day he, along with most other riding horses, will need to be able to interact with humans, deal with yard environments, roads, machinery and everything else that make up a domesticated horse's life. It seems to me it is going to be far less stressful if that is introduced as early as possible. Far less nasty surprises.

What upsets me more is youngsters being ridden far too early at 3 yet some people seem to find that acceptable.
 
paddy555 said:
totally disagree with you. I do lots of stuff from very early on. Far from going completely stale I have found the youngsters love learning more and more. They are far from awkward and don't lack respect as I don't allow them to be bolshy. I just end up with nice, easy going horses all ready to ride. I don't end up with problems such as my horse is scared of low flying aircraft, children's playgrounds, lorries, dogs, tractors or anything else that seems to cause problems. They have all grown up having been there, done that. As an example my 9 mo is already trained to pressure washers, tractors, trailers, quad bikes, welders, angle grinders, chainsaws and the cement mixer and walking calmly through herds of loose cattle and sheep on the road. All the things that will form part of his everyday life. He spends the rest of his day with other horses learning to live with them but at the end of the day he, along with most other riding horses, will need to be able to interact with humans, deal with yard environments, roads, machinery and everything else that make up a domesticated horse's life. It seems to me it is going to be far less stressful if that is introduced as early as possible. Far less nasty surprises.

What upsets me more is youngsters being ridden far too early at 3 yet some people seem to find that acceptable.
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I might agree with you for homebreds but this is a nervous thing and the OP is pushing far too hard at the moment.
 
I find it interesting that the OP even uses the term 'sacking out' . It refers to a method of training which floods the senses while removing any chance of escape. It 'desensitises' by forcing the horse to shut down and stop reacting. There is some of that going on in that video, where a scared and nervous horse which has been handled for one week is yanked hard with a control headcollar because she tried to move away from something which was scaring her.

I'm all for handling babies, if done the right way as Be Positive does, but not what's happening to that poor little horse who hasn't even had more than a week to form any kind of trust with any human :(



PS I have just realised that I own a Quid :D
 
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paddy555 said:
totally disagree with you. I do lots of stuff from very early on. Far from going completely stale I have found the youngsters love learning more and more. They are far from awkward and don't lack respect as I don't allow them to be bolshy. I just end up with nice, easy going horses all ready to ride. I don't end up with problems such as my horse is scared of low flying aircraft, children's playgrounds, lorries, dogs, tractors or anything else that seems to cause problems. They have all grown up having been there, done that. As an example my 9 mo is already trained to pressure washers, tractors, trailers, quad bikes, welders, angle grinders, chainsaws and the cement mixer and walking calmly through herds of loose cattle and sheep on the road. All the things that will form part of his everyday life. He spends the rest of his day with other horses learning to live with them but at the end of the day he, along with most other riding horses, will need to be able to interact with humans, deal with yard environments, roads, machinery and everything else that make up a domesticated horse's life. It seems to me it is going to be far less stressful if that is introduced as early as possible. Far less nasty surprises.

What upsets me more is youngsters being ridden far too early at 3 yet some people seem to find that acceptable.
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Yours also spend the majority of their time living with other horses, learning how to be a horse, having room, I hope, to actually canter if they want to, this poor little thing is NOT able to get into canter when in the paddock and having looked at the videos is being subjected to too much in too short a timescale, the one thing that upset me was when it tried to pop into a trot when being "lunged" the handled reprimanded fairly severely by yanking the rope, it probably needs to get rid of some pent up energy but will not be allowed to.

To me this type of training is all about submission not the horse having self confidence.
 
ycbm said:
PS I have just realised that I own a Quid :D
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Mmm - I'm about to put one of my pure-bred ID mares to an Arab - what will it be?

My 3 year old Arabxmainly TB is currently working as companion to my crazy pony (pure-bred ID wih issues) who is 4 (and slowly improving.) They're stabled next door - and go out in the school together to play silly prats. Leading, grooming, being fussed is plenty for a 3 year old IMHO. Life goes on around them - tractors, low-flying jets etc.
 
ycbm said:
I find it interesting that the OP even uses the term 'sacking out' . It refers to a method of training which floods the senses while removing any chance of escape. It 'desensitises' by forcing the horse to shut down and stop reacting. There is some of that going on in that video, where a scared and nervous horse which has been handled for one week is yanked hard with a control headcollar because she tried to move away from something which was scaring her.
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That is certainly what it used to mean in traditional Western horsemanship. However, I understand the term now includes kinder (and ultimately more effective) progressive desensitization, where the scary stimulus is repeatedly applied and removed again before the horse reacts enough to want to escape. It requires the handler to be more careful, to pay more attention; it emphasizes a conversation with the horse over simply doing a, b and c to the horse in rote fashion. Of course, it's still possible for progressive desensitization to turn into flooding if the horse is restrained so as to prevent escape. However, 'sacking out' can still be done with the horse free to go where it chooses - so it needn't be at all traumatic. The phrase may bring to mind snubbing posts and forcing horses to submit to stuff being done to them, but it doesn't have to be like that nowadays. Maybe it would be better if another phrase was used for the progressive form of desensitization.
 
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