Handling back legs/cow kicking

[[118739]]

How would you go about working out if a horse is cow kicking out because of aggression (ginger mare), pain, or fear/trauma?

Farrier came out to my otherwise well-behaved mare yesterday and she had such a mental breakdown while shoeing her last back hoof that we had to remove the other one and leave her with just fronts. I bought her in April and she behaved badly for the farrier then on all 4 feet (eventually needing twitching to handle the backs at all - though she responded well enough to get the job done) - she lost shoes & I turned her away to grow better hoof & grow out the nail holes. In that time handled legs & got to front legs handled easy - back legs better but not perfect. This time I was hopeful we'd get done without any drama and up to hoof 3 we did then hoof 4 lost it - twitching wouldn't work - even when half asleep kicking out sideways..

So here are the facts as I see them for any cluedos who want to help me piece this all together:

- Came with poor hoof quality, lost shoes, turned away to grow out - new hoof much better quality
- Was a b*tch the first time the farrier came out & needed twitching (previous owner says she was "iffy to shoe" most recent owner said she's "usually good" no mention of twitching by either) farrier sure she'd been twitched before
- She's sweet in nature & has good ground manners otherwise - respectful of space & not bolshy - loves people more than other horses but is impatient (hoof stamping & pawing ground)
- Was pretty much a saint up until last hoof this time - then totally lost it. But no other response other than cow-kicking. No napping, no whites of eyes, no noise, no bucking & v calm once foot put down - weight bearing (though the more time we spent faffing with her legs she did START to get wound up)
- Asked farrier if there was maybe pain in hoof causing dramatic reaction - he thinks not
- He did say though: her back legs are scarred (I knew this but assumed her ex field mate had been giving her a hard time as some were pretty new when I picked her up) he thought that maybe her reaction was from having been stuck in something or maybe she's had a hiding off a previous farrier & its left an impression (she wasn't scared of him though so..?) and his last suggestion after i brought up hoof pain was *maybe* joint pain... but if she was like this on all feet on arrival and now just at the last one I just can't decide (ofc I'll investigate) plus by the time we gave up she was moody on the other back hoof as well AND she'd already stood once quietly to have all 4 feet trimmed?
- Once the whole ordeal was over went back to field quite happy

Dunno why I'm asking the internet this but anyone else had a horse like this? Am I just going to have to be patient & train her to hold her leg up and get over it (in which case I suppose I'm glad he didn't get the shoes on the back....!)? Or can anyone think of something that could be hurting her joints - that doesn't show up as lameness (when I say lameness - there is no stiffness, no imbalance in stride, no issue tracking up - I can't see the slightest hint) but would when holding leg up to shoe...?

Have I just bought myself a drama queen? Any similar accounts & how you got past it appreciated.... she's a lovely young horse otherwise but I've never had to sedate a horse for anything so I certainly don't want to start JUST FOR SHOES!

 

[milliepops]

I would be less reluctant to sedate, in your position.
I don't really like to use a twitch and certainly not for more than a few minutes. There was some research done to show that after about 5 mins the effect on horse's heart rate & stress levels fell away.
Sedating would probably allow you to get a proper go with the farrier and then in theory you could reduce it on subsequent trips

without a vet's input it's impossible for any of us to say if the horse has some pain but it's certainly not something I would rule out without investigating and this should be done first IMO. Horses don't generally act up like that for no reason. If she's generally easy to have around then I would think this far more likely than her being aggressive, as you've put it.

In the meantime continuing to work on handling, ground manners and patience will all be useful in the long run anyway.

 

[be positive]

In my experience horses are rarely that difficult for that long, you say she is still not perfect with you, for no reason if the handler is competent and the farrier is patient, which it sounds as if both are, so I would want to investigate joint pain before trying anything else, having the hock held flexed for a minute or so can be enough to cause fairly intense pain that may not show in normal work so this may be a sign of something going on inside that needs finding before it gets worse.
Otherwise I would leave her barefoot behind, most do really well even in full work, and keep handling her bringing the hinds into full flexion so she gets used to it if nothing is found by the vet.

 

[[118739]]

I would be less reluctant to sedate, in your position.
I don't really like to use a twitch and certainly not for more than a few minutes. There was some research done to show that after about 5 mins the effect on horse's heart rate & stress levels fell away.
Sedating would probably allow you to get a proper go with the farrier and then in theory you could reduce it on subsequent trips

without a vet's input it's impossible for any of us to say if the horse has some pain but it's certainly not something I would rule out without investigating and this should be done first IMO. Horses don't generally act up like that for no reason. If she's generally easy to have around then I would think this far more likely than her being aggressive, as you've put it.

In the meantime continuing to work on handling, ground manners and patience will all be useful in the long run anyway.

Yes.. I'm not sure aggression is the right word - she's not an aggressive horse. Maybe frustration would be better. I'll have to do a better move around of her leg today and see if there are any twinges as there wasn't much point yesterday in the dark after all that ffaff. Just seems odd for it to have been all 4 legs at the beginning of the year reduced down to just this one leg.. just not sure what I'd say to a vet if I called them out to a sound horse!!

 

[[118739]]

In my experience horses are rarely that difficult for that long, you say she is still not perfect with you, for no reason if the handler is competent and the farrier is patient, which it sounds as if both are, so I would want to investigate joint pain before trying anything else, having the hock held flexed for a minute or so can be enough to cause fairly intense pain that may not show in normal work so this may be a sign of something going on inside that needs finding before it gets worse.
Otherwise I would leave her barefoot behind, most do really well even in full work, and keep handling her bringing the hinds into full flexion so she gets used to it if nothing is found by the vet.

Yes she'll be barefoot behind until she can be handled safely - I don't want to put her through the stress of being sedated - I don't think its healthy particularly if the end goal can be achieved through work .. & twitching was only a last resort as we'd made it to 3 shoes! Would hock issues be shown any other way than just when flexed? In all the variety of leg/foot problems I've seen in a horse over the years there's always been a HINT in the mannerisms, movement etc. even when mild so if it is a joint issue it'd be new on me! I'll have to get a vet out but don't want them kicked about either....

 

[milliepops]

well I would agree with BP holding a leg up in a flexed position is more likely to make something hurt than moving at liberty (explains why flexion tests can show things up). If I was in your shoes I would speak with the vet on the phone and explain the issue, and see what they thought about it. Are you registered with an equine practice?

 

[HeyMich]

My mare was very impatient and snatchy with her back feet when I got her, and would hardly stand still to be trimmed/shod. She had awful hoof condition though, so I think she's had some traumatic experiences with farriers etc in the past, and just had shoes banged on quickly for sale!

I practiced picking her feet up every day, tonnes of praise for not snatching them away again after a few seconds, and built it up to holding for 1 min and tapping on her feet with a wee hammer (or back of hoof pick if I forgot the hammer) before she was allowed to put them down again. I also stood her where the farrier works frequently, and not just for farrier visits. And lastly, I rewarded her constantly with hay, feed, treats when the farrier was there, to build up some positive associations. Now (2 and half yrs later) she's rock solid, and farrier has no issues whatsoever.

Give her time, practice, and praise.

However, if she's continuing to be sore after holding the leg up, it could be the other leg struggling to weight bare, or as others have said above, the prolonged flexion might be an indicator of something else niggling away. Vet won't mind at all, it's a very valid reason to investigate further if needs be!

 

[[118739]]

well I would agree with BP holding a leg up in a flexed position is more likely to make something hurt than moving at liberty (explains why flexion tests can show things up). If I was in your shoes I would speak with the vet on the phone and explain the issue, and see what they thought about it. Are you registered with an equine practice?

Yep I'll have to drop them a line - an invisible hock issue is not something I like the sounds of *sigh* !!

 

[[118739]]

My mare was very impatient and snatchy with her back feet when I got her, and would hardly stand still to be trimmed/shod. She had awful hoof condition though, so I think she's had some traumatic experiences with farriers etc in the past, and just had shoes banged on quickly for sale!

I practiced picking her feet up every day, tonnes of praise for not snatching them away again after a few seconds, and built it up to holding for 1 min and tapping on her feet with a wee hammer (or back of hoof pick if I forgot the hammer) before she was allowed to put them down again. I also stood her where the farrier works frequently, and not just for farrier visits. And lastly, I rewarded her constantly with hay, feed, treats when the farrier was there, to build up some positive associations. Now (2 and half yrs later) she's rock solid, and farrier has no issues whatsoever.

Give her time, practice, and praise.

However, if she's continuing to be sore after holding the leg up, it could be the other leg struggling to weight bare, or as others have said above, the prolonged flexion might be an indicator of something else niggling away. Vet won't mind at all, it's a very valid reason to investigate further if needs be!

Yep she's got typical TB feet that were like sieves when I got her so same boat really! I did think afterwards I should have tried feeding whilst doing the backs.. but she'd been doing so well up until that point - v disappointing

 

[milliepops]

Yep I'll have to drop them a line - an invisible hock issue is not something I like the sounds of *sigh* !!

hopefully it's not that, but it would be the most fair thing on the horse to check that out first, before trying to work through it.

 

[be positive]

The problem is it could be so many things it makes sense to rule out the fairly obvious causes of discomfort or pain first, I don't think the fact she is now ok for 3 but was bad with all first time is really relevant as you do not know how they did her the previous time so it could well be she had a bad time and expected to be hurting or rushed so got upset at the start, you have gained her trust so she coped with everything apart from the one with the issue or it may be that if that was done first she would be worst on whichever was done last.
Without knowing her full history it is worth getting her checked and see where it takes you, one here was recently tight when being trimmed behind and the farrier made a comment, her hamstrings are tight due to a slightly sore back but I think if she had been having shoes on she would have proved a bit tricky.

 

[Milliechaz]

I bought a 6 year old from a dealer about 4 years ago. He was sent to the dealer direct from the breeder (a supposibly respectable and very well known breeder but I wont go into that). When i went to see him, i came home with him because my heart ruled my head and i couldn't walk away and leave him there. Alongwith many other issues, his back legs could not be touched. I was told a cock a bull story as to why but later found out the truth which was that as a youngster he had been put in a cart (as this is how they "broke" their horses) and he had bolted. The driver had jumped off, the cart had overturned and he had got caught in a barbed wire fence along with the remnants of the cart.
When I finally got near enough to his back legs I saw he had ringbone and numerous scars (along with scars to his head and hindquarters) and that's not even touching on his mental health. He would kick with such force if you tried to touch his legs. It took me 12 months to be able to pick up his back legs and pick his feet out "normally" he was so traumatised by the whole event and the accident had happened 12 months prior to buying him.
I started off by asking him to take a step backwards so that he would rest a back foot. I then picked his foot out while it was in resting position without having to touch it. I then progressed to touching his hoof while picking his foot out but didn't even dare touch his leg. over the weeks I would start to gradually bring the toe of his hoof slightly off the floor while touching only his hoof. It got to the point that I could pick his feet up pretty much normally as long as I didn't touch his leg, just his hoof. Over the months I gained his trust and was gradually able to start toughing his coronet band, then his pastern and up and up and up. It was a very slow process. Even now 4 years on he doesn't like you placing your hand all the way round his leg in a kind of grip position, he prefers you just rest his leg on your hand.
Luckily my farrier is a god send and he trimmed his feet in exactly the same way, asking him to rest a back hoof and holding his hoof literally millimetres off the floor.
This horse was so traumatised he was terrified of people. Now, 4 years on I am still battling the effects of that accident in the cart and I am the only one that can be hands on with him and even then on his terms. Luckily for him I love the bones of him and forgive his "issues".
If she has scars on her legs and reacts out of character I would bet that she has been in some sort of traumatic situation and you will just need to accommodate her and build her trust. Forcing the situation will have a very negative affect.

 

[[118739]]

The problem is it could be so many things it makes sense to rule out the fairly obvious causes of discomfort or pain first, I don't think the fact she is now ok for 3 but was bad with all first time is really relevant as you do not know how they did her the previous time so it could well be she had a bad time and expected to be hurting or rushed so got upset at the start, you have gained her trust so she coped with everything apart from the one with the issue or it may be that if that was done first she would be worst on whichever was done last.
Without knowing her full history it is worth getting her checked and see where it takes you, one here was recently tight when being trimmed behind and the farrier made a comment, her hamstrings are tight due to a slightly sore back but I think if she had been having shoes on she would have proved a bit tricky.

Mmm yes this is what I'm thinking - she's either had enough over time and reverted back to getting annoyed OR she's behaving better overall but something really genuinely was annoying her.. no way to find out till I move her leg about a bit and have a word with the vet I guess. Hopefully nothing major will rear its head!

 

[[118739]]

I bought a 6 year old from a dealer about 4 years ago. He was sent to the dealer direct from the breeder (a supposibly respectable and very well known breeder but I wont go into that). When i went to see him, i came home with him because my heart ruled my head and i couldn't walk away and leave him there. Alongwith many other issues, his back legs could not be touched. I was told a cock a bull story as to why but later found out the truth which was that as a youngster he had been put in a cart (as this is how they "broke" their horses) and he had bolted. The driver had jumped off, the cart had overturned and he had got caught in a barbed wire fence along with the remnants of the cart.
When I finally got near enough to his back legs I saw he had ringbone and numerous scars (along with scars to his head and hindquarters) and that's not even touching on his mental health. He would kick with such force if you tried to touch his legs. It took me 12 months to be able to pick up his back legs and pick his feet out "normally" he was so traumatised by the whole event and the accident had happened 12 months prior to buying him.
I started off by asking him to take a step backwards so that he would rest a back foot. I then picked his foot out while it was in resting position without having to touch it. I then progressed to touching his hoof while picking his foot out but didn't even dare touch his leg. over the weeks I would start to gradually bring the toe of his hoof slightly off the floor while touching only his hoof. It got to the point that I could pick his feet up pretty much normally as long as I didn't touch his leg, just his hoof. Over the months I gained his trust and was gradually able to start toughing his coronet band, then his pastern and up and up and up. It was a very slow process. Even now 4 years on he doesn't like you placing your hand all the way round his leg in a kind of grip position, he prefers you just rest his leg on your hand.
Luckily my farrier is a god send and he trimmed his feet in exactly the same way, asking him to rest a back hoof and holding his hoof literally millimetres off the floor.
This horse was so traumatised he was terrified of people. Now, 4 years on I am still battling the effects of that accident in the cart and I am the only one that can be hands on with him and even then on his terms. Luckily for him I love the bones of him and forgive his "issues".
If she has scars on her legs and reacts out of character I would bet that she has been in some sort of traumatic situation and you will just need to accommodate her and build her trust. Forcing the situation will have a very negative affect.

I've got no plans to force the situation... hence why she's been out in the field growing a healthy set of feet for the best part of the last 6 months & learning how to pick up and put down without having a paddy & which is why I gave the farrier 1 chance to pull that 3rd shoe off or leave her be for the night (for his safety & everyones sanity). She's definitely had something funny gone on with her at some point but her lack of fear/genuine aggression to accompany the giant hoofing kicks makes me think that (thank god) she hasn't experienced anything as traumatic as your poor chap. Having worked with a very muddled up dealer import before she's just not showing the fight/flight response with any inch of her body other than that leg that's being handled... she was best buds with the farrier once he stopped trying to do his job! who knows - looks like I'll have to let the vet give me the all clear to start from scratch .. well not quite scratch the front feet are still handle-able!!

 

[HazuraJane]

We sedated my very reactive mare, age four, when she started with a new farrier. We did it once in order to 1. get the shoeing done and 2. to re-set her brain that shoeing doesn't have to be a kicking pulling backing up extravaganza. It worked. I'd do it again. Sounds like you have gotten quite a bit of good advice, and best of luck to you and your mare.

 

[Kat]

Mine was bad for the farrier when I got her. She was also bad at picking her feet up generally.

She was young, crap at balancing on three legs, and had obviously been shod in a hurry in Ireland.

I would suggest getting her seen by a good chiro/osteo/physio it helped my mare to be able to stand on three legs without snatching, leg waggling or hopping.

We then did lots of practice, with lots of praise and some treats.

I would also go barefoot, I wish we'd done it sooner rather than battling on with shoes. With hindsight I think she found nailing on very uncomfortable despite my farrier being sympathetic, patient and kind. We'd made huge progress with her holding her feet up for picking out and for the chiro, but she was still difficult for nailing on, once we stopped putting shoes on she stood like a lamb. We worked hard to improve her feet which were described as typical tb feet but she has been barefoot ever since and happier for it.

We did find that those awful handheld horselyx were great for keeping her still (better than twitching). Revolting messy things and full of sugar but it worked.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

When I first got my "project" mare, she was very difficult about lifting up her hind feet, particularly the near hind.

Got physio in for other suspected issues (she was impossible to get to stand at the mounting block); who found sacrio-iliac issues.

She's still capable of being a witch when she feels like it; was a bit kicky when woman came to clip her last week, so some of it I am convinced is behavioural - or rather more perhaps, habitual - rather than pain-related, and we've still got considerable work to do yet, but I always aim to eliminate a pain issue before looking at behavioural.

Hope this helps.

 

[[118739]]

Mine was bad for the farrier when I got her. She was also bad at picking her feet up generally.

She was young, crap at balancing on three legs, and had obviously been shod in a hurry in Ireland.

I would suggest getting her seen by a good chiro/osteo/physio it helped my mare to be able to stand on three legs without snatching, leg waggling or hopping.

We then did lots of practice, with lots of praise and some treats.

I would also go barefoot, I wish we'd done it sooner rather than battling on with shoes. With hindsight I think she found nailing on very uncomfortable despite my farrier being sympathetic, patient and kind. We'd made huge progress with her holding her feet up for picking out and for the chiro, but she was still difficult for nailing on, once we stopped putting shoes on she stood like a lamb. We worked hard to improve her feet which were described as typical tb feet but she has been barefoot ever since and happier for it.

We did find that those awful handheld horselyx were great for keeping her still (better than twitching). Revolting messy things and full of sugar but it worked.

Thanks Kat - handheld horselyx sounds like a good idea to keep her occupied if I deploy it at the right moment!! Short-term I'm still waiting for the healthy hoof regrowth to come through to the end so barefoot isn't really an option, then long term I'd hope to compete so I'd like the option of studs etc. when needed so think I'll stick with the process for now! Nailing doesn't seem to be an issue at all ... just waiting on a vet to look at joints to confirm joints are ok at the moment

 

[[118739]]

When I first got my "project" mare, she was very difficult about lifting up her hind feet, particularly the near hind.

Got physio in for other suspected issues (she was impossible to get to stand at the mounting block); who found sacrio-iliac issues.

She's still capable of being a witch when she feels like it; was a bit kicky when woman came to clip her last week, so some of it I am convinced is behavioural - or rather more perhaps, habitual - rather than pain-related, and we've still got considerable work to do yet, but I always aim to eliminate a pain issue before looking at behavioural.

Hope this helps.

If you don't mind me asking what was the outcome of the sacroiliac issues found?

 

[[118739]]

Update: hello - can confirm joints are ok and back too 👌 so looks like I’ll be practicing patience over the next few months to get her standing. Good news is once the vet held on to her leg during her first hissy fit she just got over it and stood 🙄😂 (not that she’ll be so willing every time!) glad it’s not an invisible joint issue though !

 

[Myloubylou]

my little mare was impatient with having back legs picked up, she doesn’t cow kick but would snatch it back. She’s much improved after following the advice in this vid, really only took few days.

 

[[118739]]

my little mare was impatient with having back legs picked up, she doesn’t cow kick but would snatch it back. She’s much improved after following the advice in this vid, really only took few days.

Hey thanks for the video this method has worked well on front legs but it will just take more time on the back I think. I'm tackling it as a complete re-train

 

[Fransurrey]

My boy was difficult with his feet when I bought him. Lord knows how they shod his front feet and he lost a shoe just days after I brought him home. He drove me nuts always wanting to rest a hind leg when I picked up a front, or cow kicking (not badly, but enough for me to shout at him) with the hinds. He also came with poor quality feet. Very deep thrush. I didn't realise just how deep until I cut away as much as I dared and found it had gone into live tissue in the hinds. I went in with the big guns. Cooper sulphate solution to wash, hoof paste, eucalyptus - it worked to a degree, but I ended up buying soaking boots (the big jobbies for Cleantrax) and performing a soak for the maximum time (2 hours I think!). The difference in his frog quality now is amazing and it corresponds with needing his hoof boots less and less. In your case I'd ditch the shoes, get some decent boots. You'll get much better hoof as a result and still be able to ride that way. My recent tactic is to use cotton wool fibres with my hoof paste (basically homemade Hoof Stuff) and wedge it into the collateral sulci using a hoof pick (his are naturally quite deep and I find it difficult to get paste right in there). The cow kicking with mine definitely coincided with the thrush getting worse (he lives out and summer has been somewhat sporadic where I live!). Another thing I do, as he's young, is to touch the foot I want but not pick up straight away. He's a speshul kind of cob and bless him whips up a foot without adjusting balance first - this was part of our problem in the early days I think, as he'd then want to move and fall over! Touching and then letting him adjust means that when I pick it up, he's in a better position, having realised when he lifted his own foot that he needed to adjust the others.

 

[[118739]]

My boy was difficult with his feet when I bought him. Lord knows how they shod his front feet and he lost a shoe just days after I brought him home. He drove me nuts always wanting to rest a hind leg when I picked up a front, or cow kicking (not badly, but enough for me to shout at him) with the hinds. He also came with poor quality feet. Very deep thrush. I didn't realise just how deep until I cut away as much as I dared and found it had gone into live tissue in the hinds. I went in with the big guns. Cooper sulphate solution to wash, hoof paste, eucalyptus - it worked to a degree, but I ended up buying soaking boots (the big jobbies for Cleantrax) and performing a soak for the maximum time (2 hours I think!). The difference in his frog quality now is amazing and it corresponds with needing his hoof boots less and less. In your case I'd ditch the shoes, get some decent boots. You'll get much better hoof as a result and still be able to ride that way. My recent tactic is to use cotton wool fibres with my hoof paste (basically homemade Hoof Stuff) and wedge it into the collateral sulci using a hoof pick (his are naturally quite deep and I find it difficult to get paste right in there). The cow kicking with mine definitely coincided with the thrush getting worse (he lives out and summer has been somewhat sporadic where I live!). Another thing I do, as he's young, is to touch the foot I want but not pick up straight away. He's a speshul kind of cob and bless him whips up a foot without adjusting balance first - this was part of our problem in the early days I think, as he'd then want to move and fall over! Touching and then letting him adjust means that when I pick it up, he's in a better position, having realised when he lifted his own foot that he needed to adjust the others.

Hey thanks for the info! She hasn't got thrush or anything like that frog has been healthy the whole time - she just came with very poor quality hoof wall (probably due to all the energy she was consuming going into condition - she looked amazing when she turned up ... feet not so much! that combined with the patchwork of old nail holes all in a 1 inch stretch due to slow growth). The nail holes finally grew out and there is a significant difference in the thickness of the new growth vs what she had when she came so I'm confident that problem is solved. I did consider boots before turning her away to grow the hoof but sadly her feet are an unusual shape for booting.. maybe once they've done a bit more growing they'll round out better, but also I am hoping to compete xc and some sj (much of which will be on grass) so I think shoes will be a better option if I need studs etc. I think that balancing could be an issue sometimes - she does like to rest a back leg but also ... maybe she's so keen on resting a leg to get out of lifting the other one up ;P

Now I've cleared up pain as a potential issue I'm pretty confident I can just get on with teaching her what I need from her in a clear way - I've had plenty of horses with quirks to work on!

 

[Queenbee]

I'm not a preachy Bare-footer... Whilst I do generally keep my boy BF and my mare prior to him, there will often be times when I pop a set of shoes on him and her before him... for instance some xc events coming up or with him when the ground is extra wet... So I mean no disrespect by saying the following:

Obviously she has issues with her back leg in particular and has made great progress but needs more work, whatever they may be I am not saying just keep her BF and don't look into it further because you should, more work over time, lots of praise and reward, you know the drill. However, having grown a good hoof, is there any particular reason for shoeing behind if it causes such problems?

It seems that you have already made excellent strides in the quality of her hoof, she carries 2/3 of her weight on her fronts anyways and can be shod on her fronts, in my eyes a horse who for whatever reason has such issue with having shoes on its back feet who has good hoof has no real reason to have hind shoes, especially as over time you stand the risk of the hoof quality going backwards as a byproduct of shoeing. If she is comfortable underfoot with just fronts... I would absolutely continue to work on those back legs for handling and safety's sake but I would dismiss any plans for hind shoes and focus on keeping her BF back there and continuing to improve hoof quality. It may be that for whatever reason for you and her that simply isn't a practical option long term, but if it is I would seriously consider it.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

We know what caused our mare's problem, she had a hoof abscess not long after we got her - we thought it was an injury and got the vet out. He sedated her and dug a bit hole. In hindsight, we would have been better with the farrier, or letting it resolve by itself but still.
She didn't enjoy the sedation experience and it took a long time and a lot of patient work to get her happy with having any of her feet handled. We now start trimming her feet with the backs and she is fine with the fronts, although it was a front foot that had the abscess. She can't hold it together if the farrier starts with her fronts.

A previous mare was fine with having her feet handled when I viewed her but she was shod prior to delivery and was a nightmare for our own farrier. He was convinced that she had a bad experience, thought he probably knew which farrier had done the last shoeing (she came from a dealer) and that she could have been hobbled.

A Clydesdale mare was always difficult to trim and had to be sedated but did improve with patient handling. Sadly we lost her to an internal tumour and think that it might have been the cause of discomfort all along.

I hope that you get her better to handle but I can certainly recommend working with her back feet first.

 

[[118739]]

I'm not a preachy Bare-footer... Whilst I do generally keep my boy BF and my mare prior to him, there will often be times when I pop a set of shoes on him and her before him... for instance some xc events coming up or with him when the ground is extra wet... So I mean no disrespect by saying the following:

Obviously she has issues with her back leg in particular and has made great progress but needs more work, whatever they may be I am not saying just keep her BF and don't look into it further because you should, more work over time, lots of praise and reward, you know the drill. However, having grown a good hoof, is there any particular reason for shoeing behind if it causes such problems?

It seems that you have already made excellent strides in the quality of her hoof, she carries 2/3 of her weight on her fronts anyways and can be shod on her fronts, in my eyes a horse who for whatever reason has such issue with having shoes on its back feet who has good hoof has no real reason to have hind shoes, especially as over time you stand the risk of the hoof quality going backwards as a byproduct of shoeing. If she is comfortable underfoot with just fronts... I would absolutely continue to work on those back legs for handling and safety's sake but I would dismiss any plans for hind shoes and focus on keeping her BF back there and continuing to improve hoof quality. It may be that for whatever reason for you and her that simply isn't a practical option long term, but if it is I would seriously consider it.

thanks for replying - honestly I just don’t see barefoot being an option, it’s one ive considered at length (particularly when I first bought her and the hoof wall was so thin). Her back feet are the two least appropriately shaped for boots so they’re a no go, and the majority of hacking round mine has a significant amount of Road work (very steep and hilly too) to get anywhere near a bridle path. Her feet have improved significantly since the change of diet and growth rates have increased but realistically the wear of metalled roads vs the wear her feet can cope with is something I think I’ve got a good idea of even with hardening. She’s also kept on a riverside field meaning a lot of gravely ground & I don’t want to risk gravel getting in through the hoof. I know of one horse kept in similar conditions who consistently get abscesses due to her feet not really being suited to the environment she’s kept in & I don’t really fancy taking the risk. I’m by no means against barefoot - I did a LOT of boot researching in the hope I’d be able to avoid turning her away for 5 months at the peak of her fitness but alas here we are. Glue shoes are something else I’m considering to cut out the nail holes but they come with their own issues!!
Regardless of all this Now that I’ve discounted her reaction being from pain I need to be bringing her to a position where I can trust her to behave appropriately when I ask for her feet. She should be safe to handle regardless of what I’m/farrier is doing with her and that’s my next goal. I have full confidence that we’ll be there in no time. I can’t say this in text on the internet without sounding like a bit of a twerp but: I’m very glad she came to me because she’d have given any one less experienced a real tough time / scared them/ never get the problem sorted & been a total nightmare forever, because apart from this I’d say she’s the perfect novice horse so she could have easily ended up in that position!!

 

[[118739]]

We know what caused our mare's problem, she had a hoof abscess not long after we got her - we thought it was an injury and got the vet out. He sedated her and dug a bit hole. In hindsight, we would have been better with the farrier, or letting it resolve by itself but still.
She didn't enjoy the sedation experience and it took a long time and a lot of patient work to get her happy with having any of her feet handled. We now start trimming her feet with the backs and she is fine with the fronts, although it was a front foot that had the abscess. She can't hold it together if the farrier starts with her fronts.

A previous mare was fine with having her feet handled when I viewed her but she was shod prior to delivery and was a nightmare for our own farrier. He was convinced that she had a bad experience, thought he probably knew which farrier had done the last shoeing (she came from a dealer) and that she could have been hobbled.

A Clydesdale mare was always difficult to trim and had to be sedated but did improve with patient handling. Sadly we lost her to an internal tumour and think that it might have been the cause of discomfort all along.

I hope that you get her better to handle but I can certainly recommend working with her back feet first.

Sounds like your 2nd horse has a similar story to mine - handled feet at viewing then was reshod before picking up. Farrier suspects bad experience for mine too. Tending to backs first could be a help - particularly now it’s getting dark as by the time he tackled the back feet the head torch was out so maybe didn’t help with feeling relaxed either. There’s are all things to keep in mind next time He’s out!
I knew you couldn’t buy a quirk free ginger mare 😜

 

[[118739]]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Now I’ve discounted pain as an issue I’m confident in how I’ll tackle the issue. I have a lot of experience dealing with horses with *issues*. When I started the thread I was just thinking worst scenario - if there could be a joint issue that doesn’t make itself apparent through lameness or come through in the striding 🙈 Luckily that isn’t the problem. Definitely open to alternative forms of keeping her feet but for now I’ve got my project to be getting on with. I’ll revisit what goes on her when the time comes as for now the backs are unshod through lack of choice!
if anyone is interested I’ll let you know when we’ve made it to “balances her hoof on my little finger” 😜

 

[[118739]]

Hello - just a little update: 4x shoes on with zero drama. No twitching, no drugs - I won’t lie I was pretty proud of my little lady when the farrier arrived expecting the worst!!

she had 1 or 2 moments where she thought about having a paddy but overall stood like a saint! Patience seems to have paid off (hopefully she’ll be even better next showing!).

I really wasn’t expecting such an extreme turn around in behaviour even though we’ve been working on it regularly - in just 3 months to be honest but I’m very impressed with her sudden maturity ha!