Hard Ground conditioning

[Orangehorse]

There is a headline in a magazine by a vet, saying that it isn't possible to condition your horse's legs to hard ground. I admit I haven't read the article.

But I wonder about this. What if you live in a country where the ground is always hard? I went on a riding holiday to Montana where there isn't any rain during the summer, only snow in winter and farms have to be next to streams for water.

Those horses were ridden for miles every day on hard ground. On one day we had a massive long canter (like "whenever are we going to stop?") up the side of a mountain on a logging road, so the surface was hard. And presumably those horses did that canter every week and all the riding out in between, where we did canter a fair amount.

The next day I had a careful look at all the horses' legs and they were as hard and clean as always, no signs of any filling or puffiness. They were turned out at night on a grass paddock, so had been walking round all night. Obviously no jumping either.

There was a vet on the ride too, and I said that most English horse would probably be crippled after that!

So I wonder if anyone has some words of wisdom about riding on hard ground.

 

[SEL]

When David Marlin put out his annual FB post on not conditioning on tarmac / hard ground there were a fair few endurance riders saying they rode on ground like that all the time without issue.

Like you I've ridden in countries where we went at speed over tracks that were like concrete and the horses were just fine. I wonder if its because they are in that environment from birth

 

[Widgeon]

Just a thought but I wonder whether the conditions in which a foal grows up have an effect? I.e. if it grows up steadily trotting around after its mum on that kind of ground, then it will be used to it and the bones will grow under those conditions. So it's not a shock. Also they'd have a good level of fitness from the start so they'll have all the muscles and strong ligaments etc to support that kind of "work". Will be really interested to see some better informed answers to this question!

 

[Birker2020]

I think the answer is because they have never been worked on artificial surfaces. And I think that is probably the reason why they are sound.

When I spoke to the vet after vetting my horse he said that I should be careful not to over use the menage in the winter months as he sees so many injuries from horses that don't go on surfaces at all during the warmer months and then when its too dark in the evenings to hack they are exposed to artificial surfaces.

It wasn't anything in particular about my horse, or my menage - he didn't know me from Adam. It was his general view on all horses - to only ride a maximum of twice a week on a surface. It was an interesting point of view and not one I'd ever heard before.

As for road work during all the conversations I've had with vets and other professionals, I've heard them say that slow trotting uphill on the roads is good for horses, others have said its extremely detrimental.

I think in particular Morgan horses are renowned for having strong feet, its to do with their genetics. Essentially what they say is that horses taken out of the wild have strong feet, but when domesticated they are exposed to a different diet, hoofcare and lack of movement and develop all manner of issues.

This link explains it in more detail. genetics.https://www.retiredracehorseproject.org/care-nutrition/1415-bad-feet-is-it-nature-or-nurture

 

[Squeak]

I'm really torn on this, I hear people saying that they can be conditioned to it yet my personal experience is that those who went eventing on any type of ground often wouldn't get a full season out of any of their horses before it had to have time off with issues that were completely due to the hard ground.

 

[Widgeon]

my personal experience is that those who went eventing on any type of ground often wouldn't get a full season out of any of their horses before it had to have time off with issues that were completely due to the hard ground.

Do you think that's the same though? Eventing, you're changing speed and (to some extent) direction, plus taking off and landing from pretty sizable obstacles, with the rider needing to move in or above the saddle. Of course everyone tries to be a well balanced rider but even the very best will sometimes find their weight ending up not quite where they wanted it, and the horse has to deal with that. The load on a horse's legs doing all of that is presumably quite different to a steady (if fast) canter on hard ground with minimal turns, with a rider that stays in more or less the same place relative to the horse.

Just a thought, FWIW!

 

[Squeak]

Do you think that's the same though? Eventing, you're changing speed and (to some extent) direction, plus taking off and landing from pretty sizable obstacles, with the rider needing to move in or above the saddle. Of course everyone tries to be a well balanced rider but even the very best will sometimes find their weight ending up not quite where they wanted it, and the horse has to deal with that. The load on a horse's legs doing all of that is presumably quite different to a steady (if fast) canter on hard ground with minimal turns, with a rider that stays in more or less the same place relative to the horse.

Just a thought, FWIW!

Mmmm I think it is the same because the detrimental factor is still the hard ground if that makes sense? Although there is the aspect of whether there is a critical point so to speak where extra impact/ harder work goes beyond what would be possible to condition for?

Sorry if that makes no sense at all, I'm having a long day at work and my mind is a bit boggled.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I’ve done hard road work for years to keep my horses sound on hard summer ground when doing rideouts. Currently doing nothing really but hacking with my 4yr old on varying terrain but it all starts and needs with a good bit of tarmac work to get off road. He sees the arena once a week at best just now and is coming on brilliantly

 

[TheMule]

The science is really simple- condition to a point, concussion after that. Concussion on joints = the cartilage and synovial fluid production not being able to keep up with the wear = arthritis. Of course there are individual differences in horses and some will always buck the trend, just as in humans.
Soft tissues like tendons and ligaments are much more likely to get injured on soft ground and/ or uneven ground

 

[Birker2020]

deleted

 

[paddi22]

We get in a lot of sulky racers in to retrain, and they are the soundest horses I've ever seen. I've asked a few of the good equine hospitals about it just out of curiosity, and their view seems to be that the straight lines, flat surface and rhythm would actually be easier on them that, say, a four year old horse being lunged and ridden in circles on a surface all the time. Another vet said horses are either sound or not, and if they can hold up to the trotter training and not break down, then the ones that survive and get to us are just very hardy and conditioned.

I'd agree with the mule about the never/soft ground being worse. One of the wet winters, our local hunt pack had nearly every horse having leg/tendon issues after the season. the endurance crowd here never seem to have a lame day in their life.

 

[Fransurrey]

Impact exercise builds bone density. That's surely undisputed fact for humans AND horses? As TheMule says, tip the balance and you get concussion, but it's not true to say you can't condition to hard ground. One reason I don't use the school at my yard is because it's too soft. That worries me much more than the concrete like bridleways out there.

 

[Skib]

Frederic Remington, the Western artist from New York, remarked (I think it was he) that in Montana the horses were shod due to the hard rocky ground. Unlike horses in Texas.

 

[Cragrat]

I've always thought of it as - Hard ground damages hard tissue ( bones/joints) and soft ground damages soft tissue ( tendons/ligaments). Rapidly moving from one to the other (e,g,hitting soft/deep patches at speed) is even worse.

A horse needs to be conditioned to the type of surface it will work on. Doing 95% of your work in the school, and then galloping across a hard field, is not going to do any good, and neither is the reverse.

 

[MystieMoo]

I think the answer is because they have never been worked on artificial surfaces. And I think that is probably the reason why they are sound.

When I spoke to the vet after vetting my horse he said that I should be careful not to over use the menage in the winter months as he sees so many injuries from horses that don't go on surfaces at all during the warmer months and then when its too dark in the evenings to hack they are exposed to artificial surfaces.

It wasn't anything in particular about my horse, or my menage - he didn't know me from Adam. It was his general view on all horses - to only ride a maximum of twice a week on a surface. It was an interesting point of view and not one I'd ever heard before.

As for road work during all the conversations I've had with vets and other professionals, I've heard them say that slow trotting uphill on the roads is good for horses, others have said its extremely detrimental.

I think in particular Morgan horses are renowned for having strong feet, its to do with their genetics. Essentially what they say is that horses taken out of the wild have strong feet, but when domesticated they are exposed to a different diet, hoofcare and lack of movement and develop all manner of issues.

This link explains it in more detail. genetics.https://www.retiredracehorseproject.org/care-nutrition/1415-bad-feet-is-it-nature-or-nurture

I remember you mentioning on another post about this vet and the use of the menage. I have put that into practice and my daughter rides in there a maximum of twice a week and sometimes only once or not at all. She is able to ride on the farm fields around the edge where we keep her horse and a little on the roads, too. I have seen the mare's fitness level increase massively and she looks the best she ever has. She's a big girl and her legs can fill a little sometimes - since taking your advice I have seen a dramatic improvement in that, too

 

[spotty_pony]

Walking and a bit of trotting will strengthen the tendons to some extend but shouldn’t be overdone. I think the current train of thought is 5 minutes maximum of trotting on the roads per ride. My boy is quite arthritic and I used to trot him a lot when younger on the roads before I knew any better (both on exercise and out hunting) so I don’t know if this has contributed to this or whether it’s more the fact he was ridden on a surface a lot and schooled a lot as young horse before I owned him - or a combination of things! I’m careful not to overdo it but I think roadwork is very beneficial if used sensibly.