'Hardening Tendons' using Concussional Force.

[khalswitz]

I've read them thanks. I still don't agree with you.

#Don'tArgueWithMeI'mADoctorDammit



eta - 5 minutes on scholar tells me I'm not going mad and tendons definitely have elastic properties...

Some tendons have elastic properties, as I said. Not arguing that. But most tendons are inelastic (or viscoelastic if you want to be precise). You physically cannot have fine movement without inelastic tendons. However, some tendons with elastic properties allows for increasing propulsive force with lower energy expenditure and higher efficiency.

Specific in/elasticity varies by muscle body type and species. However saying 'tendons are elastic' is a gross generalisation that is incorrect when taken strictly as majority of tendons are not.

Not many current papers promote inelasticicity as it is SUCH a standard belief in terms of anatomy (elasticity in some distal limb tendons is the new idea), however papers like this ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19525436/?i=3&from=/12485693/related ) talk about elasticity specifically to certain tendons rather than as a generalised property, and for specific reasons.

This paper on horse distal limbs gives you an idea of which tendons show elastic properties and actually how elastic they are (more comparable to humans than something like a kangaroo for instance): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9787779/?i=6&from=/19525436/related

 

[catkin]

I've just come back in after a road-hack this morning, where this thread came to mind as we were going along.

There is trotting and trotting - this morning Welshie was swinging along in an easy rhythmical trot along the road, what we'd call a 'working trot', certainly nothing as full on as her showring Welsh Trot - and that's why we both found it easy to do, all the body parts are working but not with excess effort on any single part/structure.
Also, the tarmac surface of the road was the most consistent surface that we encountered this morning, rather than a rather soggy grass track or some hardcore that's been potholed by the rain. I think we both found that the road was the nicest place to trot (she is conditioned to the surface though....)

 

[khalswitz]

Some tendons have elastic properties, as I said. Not arguing that. But most tendons are inelastic (or viscoelastic if you want to be precise). You physically cannot have fine movement without inelastic tendons. However, some tendons with elastic properties allows for increasing propulsive force with lower energy expenditure and higher efficiency.

Specific in/elasticity varies by muscle body type and species. However saying 'tendons are elastic' is a gross generalisation that is incorrect when taken strictly as majority of tendons are not.

Not many current papers promote inelasticicity as it is SUCH a standard belief in terms of anatomy (elasticity in some distal limb tendons is the new idea), however papers like this ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19525436/?i=3&from=/12485693/related ) talk about elasticity specifically to certain tendons rather than as a generalised property, and for specific reasons.

This paper on horse distal limbs gives you an idea of which tendons show elastic properties and actually how elastic they are (more comparable to humans than something like a kangaroo for instance): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9787779/?i=6&from=/19525436/related

Also, just checked my copies of Dyce, Sack and Wensing's Veterinary Anatomy and Pasquini et al's Anatomy of Domestic Animals (the go to texts for veterinary anatomy) and both confirm that tendons are generally inelastic, with some distal limb flexors (varying by species) showing elastic properties to aid with efficiency of propulsion.

For example, the stay apparatus which allows a horse to stand still without exerting muscular energy, which also includes the suspensory apparatus, has to be inelastic to allow the tendon to resist movement of fetlock and pastern.

 

[risky business]

Iv always trotted on roads and iv never had a lame horse.

My last mare was barefoot and we trotted for longer periods on roads and all kinds of surface and never had an issue with lameness.

 

[millikins]

How can driving horses/ponies trot for miles on roads, usually shod with very low rates of foot or tendon problems? I don't include those that are hammered as 2yr olds, but the majority of drivers who are responsible and build up fitness. Is it different if they're not carrying a rider?

 

[rowan666]

Is this not all old news so to speak? Hardening has been praciced since way before my time, my mum used to tell me about some awfull things that went on in yards she worked at 40+ years ago with some that would deliberately cause splints believing it strengthened bones!! but this was in the days of pin firing! Im glad things have moved on but its clear from replys that it is common knowledge that a variety of surfaces is best and far more damage can be done in a deep school than trotting on the roads.

I rehab horses with road work under all the local vets advice, I work with at least 10 vets in my local area when rehabbing and caring for horses that belong to others, what all these vets have agreed on is that a rubber surface on a school can be detrimental to tendons as it encourages over extension/flexion of the joints and therefore puts extra strain on the tendons.
also the constant turning in a school puts extra strain on the body. All my rehab has always been done out hacking road and tracks on vet advice.

my own mare is without shoes and personally I think a lump of metal on the feet is the biggest cause of concussion again this is also supported by the vets I work with.

^^ agree 100%

 

[Aperchristmas]

How can driving horses/ponies trot for miles on roads, usually shod with very low rates of foot or tendon problems? I don't include those that are hammered as 2yr olds, but the majority of drivers who are responsible and build up fitness. Is it different if they're not carrying a rider?

That's quite an interesting point, particularly as a driving trot is often quite forwards. Inevitably the concussive force will be smaller as the weight is smaller, but equally, an average rider on an average horse doesn't up the percentage weight up much.

 

[cadefan]

Well don't know about anyone else but I feel awful during and after running on dry sand or gravel etc but can happily run on tarmac and hard grass/earth so long as I have reasonable shoes on. Even a hard uneven surface such as a mountainside feels much better underfoot when running than an arena. Sand or gravel lets my feet twist and stretch in a way that just feels wrong. I think extensive training on that type of ground would be more likely to cause an injury than prevent it. As fr as 'hardening' of the tendons is concerned I don't think that is the right word. Strengthening sounds more like it.

I think the benefits of 'concussion' to bone density are widely publicised in the sport world. My partner loves MMA and some of the fighters specifically target their bone and muscle density with shock exercises to reduce likelihood of injury. Plyometric shock training has been shown to increase bone density, reduce bone and cartilage injuries such as breakage and improve/maintain muscle strength, though how much of this would directly translate to horses I don't know. I expect some of it is relevant.

I reckon it is much healthier for a horse that is exercised vigorously for extended periods on hard surfaces to have bare feet. Shoes on a horse that works very hard on tarmac might cause harsh jarring over time.

I am the opposite - a long distance runner for 25 years, including marathons (on the road, of course). I now am reduced to running round the fields in summer, and when the fields get wet, I run round and round the sand school! The concussion from the tarmac is too much for my knee joints these days. Running in the sand school is easy from a proprioception point of view, whereas I have to keep my wits about me a bit more running round fields, as the terrain isn't smooth (but this is good for strengthening tendons, ligaments etc that control lateral movement of the ankle).

Just mulling, I wonder how it would feel on the roads if my running shoes had a metal sole and insole???

 

[Illusion100]

The opinion that caused my rant was due to someone stating road road 'hardened tendons', I disagreed. Certainly during my Degree no scientific evidence showed that this was the case, or even possible. A tendon is a tendon, you can't make it harder but you can condition them. Yes, it may be an old fashioned phrase but should you throw it about with Novices it can lead to owners believing what may be excessive trotting on roads to be a good thing, totally unaware of potential concussive damage.

My problem was their attitude, so in my OP I was ranting! Yes, terrain variety is optimal along with common sense. But to take a horse that as been out of work for months, trot it for miles on the road and claim 'it hardens the tendons', so is the right thing to do is ridiculous. Then to claim, which much of IMO was BS, the things they did seemed like an attempt protect their opinion without backing up the validity of it.

 

[khalswitz]

The opinion that caused my rant was due to someone stating road road 'hardened tendons', I disagreed. Certainly during my Degree no scientific evidence showed that this was the case, or even possible. A tendon is a tendon, you can't make it harder but you can condition them. Yes, it may be an old fashioned phrase but should you throw it about with Novices it can lead to owners believing what may be excessive trotting on roads to be a good thing, totally unaware of potential concussive damage.

My problem was their attitude, so in my OP I was ranting! Yes, terrain variety is optimal along with common sense. But to take a horse that as been out of work for months, trot it for miles on the road and claim 'it hardens the tendons', so is the right thing to do is ridiculous. Then to claim, which much of IMO was BS, the things they did seemed like an attempt protect their opinion without backing up the validity of it.

Yes, it is a misleading turn of phrase for sure.

 

[stencilface]

I was also taught at uni that roadwork is very important in fitening horses I never used to trot my shod horses on the road unless uphill however my boy is barefoot so feel much happier trotting some distance albeit not very fast.

My local vet believes the massive increase in PSD is due to too much work on surfaces and not enough on a variety of different types of surface.

There are exceptions though, mine had psd and is primarily a hacker with some other work, we don't have a school and he has very low competition mileage for a 14 year old. But after psd, tenosynovitis and tendonitis all in different legs we are now barefoot. So far, apart from initial footiness (11 years of shoes with no break), an abscess and I think a bit if lami as our grass went nuts he's been sound. Ok I know he has been lame, but not with anything tendon or ligament related!

I'm hoping it's all going to improve from here, he can still be shuffley in canter, but still improving I think

And thanks for the videos, both really interesting, the gait comparison especially

 

[maccachic]

I wouldn't (couldn't) trot a horse with shoes on the road, I do trot my Bf horses on the road regularly. However I consider it legging up - you slowly increase the demand / surfaces and the legs/body have time to adapt.

I've recently gone to 5 finger shoes myself and am hugely surprised by the lack of concussion while playing netball in them, they are amazing and no risk of rolling my ankles like I do in shoes. Weird thing is I can feel muscles in my feet and can feel my bones adapting. Horse stuff (nutrition, BF) has been brilliant for improving my own life.

 

[JFTDWS]

Some tendons have elastic properties, as I said. Not arguing that. But most tendons are inelastic (or viscoelastic if you want to be precise). You physically cannot have fine movement without inelastic tendons. However, some tendons with elastic properties allows for increasing propulsive force with lower energy expenditure and higher efficiency.

Specific in/elasticity varies by muscle body type and species. However saying 'tendons are elastic' is a gross generalisation that is incorrect when taken strictly as majority of tendons are not.

Not many current papers promote inelasticicity as it is SUCH a standard belief in terms of anatomy (elasticity in some distal limb tendons is the new idea), however papers like this ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19525436/?i=3&from=/12485693/related ) talk about elasticity specifically to certain tendons rather than as a generalised property, and for specific reasons.

This paper on horse distal limbs gives you an idea of which tendons show elastic properties and actually how elastic they are (more comparable to humans than something like a kangaroo for instance): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9787779/?i=6&from=/19525436/related

mmm, no. Both those papers describe the elastic properties of tendons, so I'm entirely sure why you think they support your hypothesis. Degrees of elasticity vary between tendons, dependent on fuction, and between species, certainly, but in principle, an inelastic tendon is a disasterous concept - the likelihood of rupture under standard conditions is immense. All tendons have elastic properties - they're made of collagen and elastin for heaven's sake! On a molecular level, an inelastic tendon simply doesn't make sense.

 

[Tnavas]

We always trotted the hunters on the road for an hour every day and they were certainly sounder than many I see these days.
I see poor feet that are constantly so soft they bruise at the drop of a hat. They aren't fit either.

The majority of horses these days are overweight Andre underworked.

They work in arenas to the point that if they have to compete on grass they loose their confidence and don't stride out. See it often in the dressage ring.

 

[Shutterbug]

Is "hardening of the tendons" not just an old school term for strengthening of the tendons? I know my vet advised a build up of work on the roads before riding in the softer arena surface after my boy had cortisone injections and box rest for mild arthritic changes to his hock - but he did warn against over doing it as this could lead to the tendon not being flexible enough to cope with riding in the softer school surface. I do limited trotting on roads out hacking, most of our work is done at walk on the roads.

 

[Tnavas]

when metal (the shoe) hits the ground the force creates concussion which travels up the leg-a hoof without out shoes expands and moves in accordance to what surface it makes contact with and being a softer material the concussion force is much less.

If the nails are in front of the widest part of the foot the shod foot does expand. This is proved by the fact that the bearing surface of the shoe at the quarters is shiny when removed from the foot. It is also why farriers shoe with the outer edge a quarter inch wider than the foot.

If the shod foot didn't expand the frogs would contract - and they don't! All the shod horses I've worked with have generally had good feet.

 

[khalswitz]

mmm, no. Both those papers describe the elastic properties of tendons, so I'm entirely sure why you think they support your hypothesis. Degrees of elasticity vary between tendons, dependent on fuction, and between species, certainly, but in principle, an inelastic tendon is a disasterous concept - the likelihood of rupture under standard conditions is immense. All tendons have elastic properties - they're made of collagen and elastin for heaven's sake! On a molecular level, an inelastic tendon simply doesn't make sense.

As I said, they discuss elastic properties of SPECIFIC tendons - I never said they discussed inelasticity.

Regarding the histology, the majority of tendons consist of very little elastin and have short, strong but flexible fibres.

Purely elastic tendons would make movement physically impossible. And I don't see how rupture would be more likely in inelastic tendons when the studies suggest inelastic tendons are easier to condition and show fewer tendons injuries?? (Read illusion100's link from earlier, it said exactly the same thing!). Remember tendons are inelastic but both ends of the tendon move - either the joint, or the muscle. 'Pulled' muscles happen more regularly than 'pulled' tendons for this reason (however it is easier to build muscle than strengthen tendons, hence why bodybuilders often experience pulled tendons).

However it looks like we aren't going to agree I'd recommend looking up a good anatomy book though!

 

[JFTDWS]

As I said, they discuss elastic properties of SPECIFIC tendons - I never said they discussed inelasticity.

Regarding the histology, the majority of tendons consist of very little elastin and have short, strong but flexible fibres.

Purely elastic tendons would make movement physically impossible. And I don't see how rupture would be more likely in inelastic tendons when the studies suggest inelastic tendons are easier to condition and show fewer tendons injuries?? (Read illusion100's link from earlier, it said exactly the same thing!). Remember tendons are inelastic but both ends of the tendon move - either the joint, or the muscle. 'Pulled' muscles happen more regularly than 'pulled' tendons for this reason (however it is easier to build muscle than strengthen tendons, hence why bodybuilders often experience pulled tendons).

However it looks like we aren't going to agree I'd recommend looking up a good anatomy book though!

The papers discuss the relative elasticity of tendons - and don't provide any evidence for inelasticity in other tendons... As such I don't see why you're linking to them to support your comments here - they don't!

Histology is not the same as molecular biology. At the molecular level, tendons are comprised of collagen and elastin (and a few other bits and bobs) - I think you are confusing the concept of elastic fibres and elastin here - elastin is extremely elastic in property and comprises a very small amount of the tendon, however the major component, collagen, also has elastic properties, though these are less extreme than elastin.

Remember - tendons don't attach to joint - they attach to bones, often around a joint. The bone does not move relative to the tendon - it moves relative to the other bones within the joint...

I'm also unsure why you're recommending an anatomy textbook for a biomechanic discussion. Not that I've used a text book as a reference since I was but a lowly undergrad... I'm not really bothered about agreement - I'm just here to make a point or two about the science behind your claims.

 

[maccachic]

If the nails are in front of the widest part of the foot the shod foot does expand. This is proved by the fact that the bearing surface of the shoe at the quarters is shiny when removed from the foot. It is also why farriers shoe with the outer edge a quarter inch wider than the foot.

If the shod foot didn't expand the frogs would contract - and they don't! All the shod horses I've worked with have generally had good feet.

Don't think I have seen a big healthy frog on a shod horse, that's first thing you notice when transitioning. In saying that put an unshod horse on soft ground for ages and they also get the same problems.

 

[twiggy2]

If the nails are in front of the widest part of the foot the shod foot does expand. This is proved by the fact that the bearing surface of the shoe at the quarters is shiny when removed from the foot. It is also why farriers shoe with the outer edge a quarter inch wider than the foot.

If the shod foot didn't expand the frogs would contract - and they don't! All the shod horses I've worked with have generally had good feet.

shod horse have contracted frogs as a general rule due to the fact the frog does not have very much contact with the ground, does not have any on a surface the is hard, I don't currently work with any horses that only have nails in the front widest part of the hoof.

 

[ester]

If the nails are in front of the widest part of the foot the shod foot does expand. This is proved by the fact that the bearing surface of the shoe at the quarters is shiny when removed from the foot. It is also why farriers shoe with the outer edge a quarter inch wider than the foot.

If the shod foot didn't expand the frogs would contract - and they don't! All the shod horses I've worked with have generally had good feet.

they really do contract!

yes shod hooves do expand but I'd wager not half as much as an unshod one....

 

[ester]

Argh, too late to edit. sorry, to correct myself: the SDFT IS elastic, the suspensory is argued about but generally believed to be mainly elastic in function.

Even elastic tendons aren't *that* elastic compared to a rubber band. Most tendons fail at around 6% strain, human elastic tendons fail at around 12%, and the SDFT which stretches the most of any measured elastic tendon has been measured stretching to 20%.

I don't think anyone was suggesting they are like rubber!!

Hardening/strengthening/conditioning all the same thing as far as I am concerned, horses doing work they are not prepared for is probably not good for them and I err on thinking surfaces aren't as great as we think they are.

 

[Equi]

Yeah sorry im on the trots on the road team. Too much soft ground is not good.

 

[Tnavas]

shod horse have contracted frogs as a general rule due to the fact the frog does not have very much contact with the ground, does not have any on a surface the is hard, I don't currently work with any horses that only have nails in the front widest part of the hoof.

None of mine have ever had contracted heels or have the hundreds of horses I've worked with.

If your farrier is nailing behind the widest part of the foot - sack him and get a decent one!

 

[twiggy2]

None of mine have ever had contracted heels or have the hundreds of horses I've worked with.

If your farrier is nailing behind the widest part of the foot - sack him and get a decent one!

you originally said the FRONT widest part of the hoof

if you can show me some pictures of horses that have worn shoes for a year that do not have contracted heels I will be impressed, I went looking for a previous post of mine that had pictures of my mares hooves and frogs but all I found was an RIP I did-it jumped out at me so I got side lined

 

[Illusion100]

For me the issue is, IMO, trotwork doesn't 'harden' tendons. It is not a challenging surface for connective tissue as it is a static surface. Does it cause concussion, yes. IIRC, trotting on roads (shod) causes significantly more stress fractures than cantering in an arena, so this predisposes bony change if trotwork on roads is significant.

Unstable surfaces, such as soft ground/arenas are beneficial in conditioning tendons as these surfaces cause hyper extension/flexion which a stable surface cannot. The problem lies when horses are predominately exercised on these soft surfaces again to a significant level, minor damage/tears in the tendons/ligaments cannot repair at the same rate they are being asked to function.

Again, I do not believe roadwork 'hardens' tendons to prevent injuries caused by soft surfaces, or counteract it. Can it be used to strengthen bone, certainly. Tendons, no I don't think so.

 

[Tnavas]

If the nails are in front of the widest part of the foot the shod foot does expand.

If the shod foot didn't expand the frogs would contract - and they don't! All the shod horses I've worked with have generally had good feet.

If your farrier is nailing behind the widest part of the foot - sack him and get a decent one!

Here you are, re read what I wrote!

If a horse is shod correctly then the heels are able to expand.

 

[ester]

But we don't take the components of our horses in isolation

 

[twiggy2]

Here you are, re read what I wrote!

If a horse is shod correctly then the heels are able to expand.

I stand corrected on what you wrote, sorry

the heels may be able to expand BUT as the frog has limited contact with the ground then there is nothing to create the expansion.

my horse is not shod so my farrier is not nailing anything to her hooves

 

[spotty_pony]

Trotting on the roads isn't necessarily a bad thing. Riding round and round in circles in an arena (especially one with a deep surface) is actually a lot more harmful is lots of ways.