'Hardening Tendons' using Concussional Force.

JFTD said:
The papers discuss the relative elasticity of tendons - and don't provide any evidence for inelasticity in other tendons... As such I don't see why you're linking to them to support your comments here - they don't! I felt they backed up my quoted figures for % strain tendons could take, and provided examples of differences in elasticity between different functions of tendons. Inelastic tendons is such a well known thing that not many modern studies are really done on them so finding current work on them is not really very easy... Hence why I recommended a text book as you obviously haven't come across this and it is a VERY basic principle in anatomy and exercise physiology (elasticity and Elastic energy for propulsion is what is still being explored).

Histology is not the same as molecular biology. At the molecular level, tendons are comprised of collagen and elastin (and a few other bits and bobs) - I think you are confusing the concept of elastic fibres and elastin here - elastin is extremely elastic in property and comprises a very small amount of the tendon, however the major component, collagen, also has elastic properties, though these are less extreme than elastin.
in this I apologise. Molecular biology isn't my strong point - my background is veterinary medicine and my thesis (in progress) is in equine exercise physiology with lean to anatomy and orthopaedics specifically). So I deal day to day in more macro structures! So I bow to your greater knowledge there. However I think the histology is just as relevant, and histologically tendons present as very tough and fibrous.

Remember - tendons don't attach to joint - they attach to bones, often around a joint. The bone does not move relative to the tendon - it moves relative to the other bones within the joint... not sure I understand you here. Of course they don't attach to joints, but around joints - and when muscle contracts, tendon pulls the bone to move the joint. The bone isn't fixed - it moves. That's why tendons couldn't function in terms of fine movement if they were all elastic. It doesn't move relative to the tendon - it moves relative to the muscle. It can't move relative to the tendon because the tendon is inelastic... (But I'm not sure I've got where you're going with this so please do enlighten me!)

I'm also unsure why you're recommending an anatomy textbook for a biomechanic discussion. Not that I've used a text book as a reference since I was but a lowly undergrad... I'm not really bothered about agreement - I'm just here to make a point or two about the science behind your claims. :)
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I said why I recommended the text book already. It is a very basic understanding of anatomy and mechanics (and of course the two are inextricably linked, my biggest disbelief probably in what you've said so far is that they aren't! Anatomy isn't just where things are - it's the structure and the function relative to structure.)

I wasn't aiming to write an exposition defendable against peer review here, so I apologise if 'the science' (by which I assume you mean the way I've presented) isn't acceptable to you. But whilst I may not yet have my doctorate I am in the anatomy/exercise physiology field so I'm not just making stuff up here. It really is such a commonly accepted anatomical fact that tendons are relatively inelastic compared to all other soft tissues that I don't really know where to start... Hence my text book recommendation! I didn't mean to offend...
 
Illusion100 said:
For me the issue is, IMO, trotwork doesn't 'harden' tendons. It is not a challenging surface for connective tissue as it is a static surface. Does it cause concussion, yes. IIRC, trotting on roads (shod) causes significantly more stress fractures than cantering in an arena, so this predisposes bony change if trotwork on roads is significant.

Unstable surfaces, such as soft ground/arenas are beneficial in conditioning tendons as these surfaces cause hyper extension/flexion which a stable surface cannot. The problem lies when horses are predominately exercised on these soft surfaces again to a significant level, minor damage/tears in the tendons/ligaments cannot repair at the same rate they are being asked to function.

Again, I do not believe roadwork 'hardens' tendons to prevent injuries caused by soft surfaces, or counteract it. Can it be used to strengthen bone, certainly. Tendons, no I don't think so.
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Look at it this way. Hard exercise like weights training builds muscle. But low impact exercise like yoga also does, just to a different degree and with less strain.

Roadwork will condition tendons as it is work. Because there is not the same degree of hyperflexion/hyper extension ie lower impact on tendons you aren't over straining tendons, so reduce incidence of injury.

Because muscles are still working hard, the tendons will also be functioning hard, just without the same degree of strain. So effectively it means horses should cope better with soft surfaces after a period of and alongside regular roadwork.
 
twiggy2 said:
you originally said the FRONT widest part of the hoof

if you can show me some pictures of horses that have worn shoes for a year that do not have contracted heels I will be impressed, I went looking for a previous post of mine that had pictures of my mares hooves and frogs but all I found was an RIP I did-it jumped out at me so I got side lined
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This. I have never deshod a horse yet whose frogs did not widen in barefoot work.






Do we really have to have the PhDs at dawn fight :) ?

Fit tendons feel harder than unfit ones. Controlled trotting on roads, causing the pasterns to sink and tension the tendons, is an age old and well tested method of preventing tendon injury in a horse which goes on to do hard, fast work.
 
khalswitz said:
It really is such a commonly accepted anatomical fact that tendons are relatively inelastic compared to all other soft tissues.
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I disagree with all your logic - and my background (also in veterinary medicine, with many years working at a vet school - I really don't need your explanation of anatomy, I've read Dyce and others and know exactly their limitations...) tells me that your claims are not founded in any sensible basis. It is just not widely accepted that tendons are inelastic. If you take a bundle of fibres which have elastic properties and stick them together, you have a tissue with elastic properties.

However, your statement here is completely different to your initial statement. Suddenly we have the "relative to other soft tissues" caveat. That is more defensible, relative to muscular tissue perhaps - but relative to other soft tissues - ligaments? I think not.

I'm not offended, but I do think you're banging on with a poorly described pet theory (of someone's, I doubt it's your own) and claiming it as fact. I think that you don't see the significance of my point about the movement of the bone relative to the tendon reflects that.
 
khalswitz said:
I said why I recommended the text book already. It is a very basic understanding of anatomy and mechanics (and of course the two are inextricably linked, my biggest disbelief probably in what you've said so far is that they aren't! Anatomy isn't just where things are - it's the structure and the function relative to structure.)

I wasn't aiming to write an exposition defendable against peer review here, so I apologise if 'the science' (by which I assume you mean the way I've presented) isn't acceptable to you. But whilst I may not yet have my doctorate I am in the anatomy/exercise physiology field so I'm not just making stuff up here. It really is such a commonly accepted anatomical fact that tendons are relatively inelastic compared to all other soft tissues that I don't really know where to start... Hence my text book recommendation! I didn't mean to offend...
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Ah now, I think if you are comparing it's elasticity compared to other soft tissues that is very different to declaring them inelastic. I think JFTD/Rara et al. were actually quite interested if there was evidence for completely inelastic tendons, as opposed to just not very elastic ones and what that evidence was.

(tottles off to lab to do 'proper science' not this biomechanics rubbish :p )
 
khalswitz - I'm still ploughing my way through this extensive thread on fittening which is always close to my heart being an owner of a heavy weight hunter. I swear by roadwork, roadwork and more roadwork both before season and during to keep those legs hardened, as I have since the eighties when, dare I say, fittening correctly for hunting seemed to be taken more seriously. Just to say thanks for sharing all your wisdom/links on the subject. You're clearly very knowledgable in this field due to your profession. Makes for extremely interesting reading.
 
ester said:
(tottles off to lab to do 'proper science' not this biomechanics rubbish :p )
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Oi :p No need to get personal :p

Indeed I was interested if there was any evidence, was a bit worried my education so far including advanced skeletal pathology module and a biomechanics project and dissertation hadn't covered it - maybe as the lab I did 1/2 of it in is responsible for quite a few of the nature papers they didn't want to bring it up or something?! Relieved this doesn't seem to be the case!! Just on my third veterinary research project/dissertation but this time based in an american vet school lab so didn't want to state one theory as fact if there's another one about!
 
khalswitz said:
Look at it this way. Hard exercise like weights training builds muscle. But low impact exercise like yoga also does, just to a different degree and with less strain.

Roadwork will condition tendons as it is work. Because there is not the same degree of hyperflexion/hyper extension ie lower impact on tendons you aren't over straining tendons, so reduce incidence of injury.

Because muscles are still working hard, the tendons will also be functioning hard, just without the same degree of strain. So effectively it means horses should cope better with soft surfaces after a period of and alongside regular roadwork.
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I don't disagree, roadwork certainly has a role to play. I for one don't agree with working horses solely on soft ground but I don't agree trotting on roads is a clear cut case of it hardens tendons, therefore necessary and that's the be all and end all, which was this Professionals attitude.

With my own eventer back during his career with me, never did roadwork, as we had fab off road hacking. He would have approx 6 hrs per week work in arena and 8/9 off road, never had any issues and was eventing Internationally. Back when we had Phases A & C, if there was any work on tarmac I'd walk him purely because my university education had highlighted the damage trotting can do.

The surfaces of the arenas at my yard are awful and only other option is road hacking, with other road users that seem to be lunatics. Not a problem for me as mine isn't backed yet but when he is I hope to have moved him elsewhere as I'm not working him in either of those schools, the surfaces are tendon/ligament damage waiting to happen even if he has conditioning work done on the roads, which for me would be 90% brisk walk, but I don't want to do this either as he is not the type to cope well with lunatic drivers/bikers.

I just don't think a sweeping and misleading statement such as trotting on roads hardens tendons is appropriate considering the amount of factors involved.
 
Would you have been ok with it if the pro had said legs rather than tendons or conditions/strengthens instead of hardens?
It may not have been that their point was wrong but their knowledge limits prevented them from using better terminology?
 
ester said:
Would you have been ok with it if the pro had said legs rather than tendons or conditions/strengthens instead of hardens?
It may not have been that their point was wrong but their knowledge limits prevented them from using better terminology?
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Yes and no! I'm awkward like that! :)

Perhaps under different circumstances the terminology might have made a difference, however this was a horse that was out of work for months, hadn't set hoof on a road for nearly a year and it was trotted for miles on the roads, (which personally I don't believe was in the horses best interests physically).

It was the complete dismissal of anything other than their own opinion that got me most, when I said each to their own (after a few sentences in, as I could tell the conversation would go nowhere), that when the 'lecture' started, name dropping, exaggerated claims etc (the one I found funny was that they knew exactly what ground conditions horses in Ireland (I'm Irish) were worked on because they went to a place in Ireland for a few months). I think it's more the fact they would argue 'til they were blue in the face they were right, saying arenas bad, roads good, when they (should) know there is more to it and each has pros and cons.

I also found it hypocritical that they also worked the same unfit horse for 40 mins (mostly trot and canter) in a very poor arena daily before trotting it for miles on the road for 5 days straight, to then say how damaging arenas are for tendons.
 
I thought there might be a little more to it. I think most people who do consider it hardens tendons/does other good would start with long slow walking aka traditional hunter fittening first.
 
1st Video
Saw no difference between the upper and lower videos

2nd Video - the foot was in desperate need of shoeing therefore does not give a true and accurate example of the action of the foot on loading.
 
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