Hardest decision, think might have to have healthy pony PTS :(

R2R can I ask if the owners are paying you for all the work you have done and the upkeep? If not then I would give them a bill for your time, which they will either pay you or let you keep the pony in payment, then the decision is yours to make.

Secondly, if you were to send to the likes of Max, Monty, Kelly, even Michael Peace, you would be spending more on the pony than the owners want for it. I have had experience with all of them and if I was going to use anyone it would be Michael Peace, he is very small - used to either jockey or work with the racehorses (can't remember off the top of my head) and he would give you a balanced opinion.
 
nativeponies said:
i'm convinced that some people who have replied on this thread have never seen a TRUE bolter or they wouldn't be so flippant with their advice.
QUOTE]

This.

A horse or pony that truly bolts is unpredictable, terrifying and dangerous. I remember the day when a horse ran straight through the solid wall of our indoor arena. 99% of the time a lovely, trusting, people-friendly and apparantly healthy mare, but she just panicked with no obvious cause. Another, a gelding this time, went straight through a barbed wire fence with his very experienced owner on his back.

With these horses it wasn't about trust. It wasn't about lacking a good relationship between horse and rider, or an understanding of pressure and release. They just lost the plot, apparently without explanation, and kept running until they hit something hard enough to make them stop.

It is all very well suggesting join up, or groundwork, or teaching pressure and release, but when a horse has panicked to the point of running through a solid wall any prior training or even consciousness of the rider has gone out of the window. And when a horse does this without any discernable cause? Sorry, but it would be madness to risk any child on board a horse like that.
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Oh dear god!! Natural horsemanship will cure all- Tosh!! it helps in some cases, not in others.... the OP has tried join up etc etc and actually the owners are not willing to pay for NH..... and the OP really shouldnt have to.

Would all of you be saying rehabilitate if we were talking about a dog who had savaged a kid causing serious injury???? there is no difference to a kid being thrown/dragged by said bolting pony also causing serious injury!
 
firstponyMinto said:
Please just try "JOIN-UP"

It can be done at home by yourself, for free!!

& if it's done properly, the pony will learn to trust the "human monsters"

Therefore creating a more trusting & manageable pony on the ground at least

I think it's worth a try don't you??
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The OP has already stated at least twice that this has already been done.
 
My pony loves to do join up - makes bugger all difference to his levels of trust when that "panic" button trips in his brain.
 
I'm 41 I've been riding since I was 3, I'm not the worlds best rider but I can do enjoy a few moments of speed and madness! BUT I've sat on my cob as he's gone into a true blind bolt. It was the most utterly terrifying experience of my life. I literally had no control, I just had to wrap my arms around his neck and tried to stop him. I was in a 40 acre field which is what saved my life, if I'd have been on a road I'm pretty sure we'd both have met a sticky end. I still 4 years on have flash backs and will never ever trust him 100% again. Luckily I stayed on (god only knows how) and he ran himself into the ground, but not before me having to rip his mouth open. Once stopped I slid off him and cried like a baby. It took me at least 6 months before I could get back on without someone holding his reins. Another year before I'd hack out alone and only this year have I taken him hunting and to more stressful events.

Imagine a child having to experience what I went though. A true bolt is the one thing I wouldn't wish on anyone.
 
In my youth I rode ponies for an old fashioned dealer. There used to be a beatiful hunter type turned out in the field not ridden, bought by the dealers old Dad but it was a bolter.
A friend who had ridden the horse when it was younger had a go at bringing back into work, it had been turned away for about 3 years. No stress, quiet hacks with others, only ridden with company,so far so good. Then one day....... Fortuately it was not too bad she knew the horse, was a good rider and there was plenty of space but basically the only way to stop him was to run him to something solid.
There is a great difference between being 'took off with' and a true bolter. A bolter cares is so engrossed in the panic they are not aware of danger to them self and the rider may as well not be there.
The dealers Dads horse spent the rest of his days in the field with my friend bringing him up once in a while to brush him.
 
I too have been at the mercy of a true bolter. Over 30 years on I still have full recall of the events of that day and physical problems that will remain with me until I die.

Those of you who have not experience the true terror of a bolting horse ( not just being p*ssed off with) are in no position to comment.
 
I have been sitting quietly on the fence on this one because it is hard to say PTS any animal just because it cant be ridden but having just read so many of the stories about bolters I have to agree that the bolt response cannot be truly 'cured' as it is the horses natural reaction. No amount of natural horsemanship will overcome that nor will it convince me if I was riding that pony that it was now 'safe', let alone put my child on it. The issue is that if sold even with 'this pony bolts' statement who is to say the new owners wont sell, maybe unwittingly, and not reveal its history of bolting.

There is no way that this pony could ever be trusted to be ridden again by a child and if it cant be guaranteed a home for life as a companion (which sadly is unrealistic) I think my decison would be to sadly PTS - put simply it is not worth the risk. It wont know what is happening and at least it will never feel that blind panic again. More than likely it will end up kiliing itself during a bolting episode as well as causing any amount of injuries / deaths along the way.
 
benson21 said:
But on the other hand, would you consider keeping a dangerous dog, that in the end could kill, alive? Because ultimately, there is a possibility that this pony could be sold on to a family that puts their child to ride it, it bolts, and the child is injured......or worse.
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There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
 
Killing this pony would be the worst possible outcome.
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Are you able to help the OP, then, by providing this pony with a last, forever, home? If you are - then I think that the owners are looking for £500 for it. You could probably take delivery by next weekend........
 
Over2You said:
There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
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i wouldn't let you within a mile of my family TBH.

Putting an animal over a member of my family..dangerous or not?..i don't think so..

And PLEASE..all this NH stuff..is rehashed good old fashioned commonsense..Which, i'm sorry to say, doesn't always work
 
nativeponies said:
i wouldn't let you within a mile of my family TBH.

Putting an animal over a member of my family..dangerous or not?..i don't think so..

And PLEASE..all this NH stuff..is rehashed good old fashioned commonsense..Which, i'm sorry to say, doesn't always work
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Without reading a lot of this thread, I was in a similar situation and sent the horse to a NH trainer. 8 weeks later, the NH trainer advised that we put the horse to sleep. It doesnt always work and no matter how good a horse or pony is, if it is a danger to people, horses and more importantly, themselves, PTS is the most caring option.
 
Over2You said:
There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
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I beg to differ - there IS such a thing as dangerous dogs and dangerous horses, and dangerous everything TBH. All animals are *wild*, we domesticate them and statistically it is not going to work in every case.

As for establishing yourself as an Alpha...ARGH. Have you seen the Pignon brothers work? If you have I am sure you will agree that they are amazing, their horses will do anything for them. And you know what? They pooh-pooh this Alpha malarky....I quote from this week's H&H, the words of Jean-Francois...

"Sure, they're not stupid - THEY DON'T THINK I AM THE LEAD HORSE - but the closer I can get to their natural language, the closer I'm able to get to them."

It goes on to say...

"The world of horses is not soft and sensual like the human one", he added. "It's hard, so my communication is not soft."
 
Over2You said:
There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
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There are such things as dangerous dogs, granted usually caused by a humans actions but as someone who has worked in dog rescue for 20 years I can tell you we can and do have to PTS dogs very often due to dangerous behaviour. We do not do it lightly and certainly not without trying every single avenue first (and that does not include certain TV 'trainers' outdated and dangerous methods:rolleyes:) but it sometimes is the only option. As with horses sometimes it just isn't viable to keep the animal alive for the sake of human feelings. Are you suggesting that all aggressive or dangerous animals be kept alive? At what cost to the animals quality of life or financial (and yes that is a HUGE issue for rescues) to whoever is responsible?

The OP has said she's willing to try, she's asked for help but so far not one of the 'NH' supporters has stepped up to actually offer anything other than outrage. Of course PTS is a last option but as she's tried almost every avenue and no one actually seems to be offering anything other than words, what exactly do you expect?
 
Animals can't be evil, as that implies they have the capacity to make moral choices and to understand all the implications of their actions. They can't. To state that they can is anthropomorphisising the pony. So is comparing the pony to a child. Animals react due to instinct and learned behaviours. Sadly, some animals just can't deal with the world we live in and do become dangerous. Some of these can be rehabilitated, and some can't be. If they can't be, they either need to be euthanised, or managed in a way they can cope with - which is not always possible.

Given all the info on this thread, the facts seem to me to be:

1. The pony does not belong to the OP
2. The owners seem to want to the pony gone
3. They aren't willing to take a low offer for it, so presumably they aren't going to want to invest lots of money on reschooling etc either. In any case, the OP has tried this and is getting nowhere.
4. The pony cannot be sold as it is - it would be a danger to anyone who rode it, and is also a danger to itself.

If a loan as a companion is to work, someone is going to have to take on the responsibility of checking up on the pony every few months and be prepared to take it back at any time. It does not seem as though the owners would be prepared to take all this responsibility on.

So, it seems to me that the best option is to sit down with the owners and set all these facts before them. They then have to decide on what they do. They can:
a. Invest in reschooling, with the understanding that this may not work, and the pony may never be ok.
b. Take on all the responsibility of finding a loan home, as outlined above.
c. Have the pony euthanised. This would be a sad decision, but it would ensure the pony does not end up being sold to an unsuitable home, which would place both the pony and its riders at risk.

If the cost of euthanasia and carcass disposal puts them off, slaughter may be another option to be investigated. This might be a more attractive financial option for the owners.
 
Over2You said:
I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
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My horses know im not a horse and never will be. So in your Alpha mission - what did you do, just beat them all into line?!! What problems were you having beforehand and how did you go about re-establising yourself as 'alpha'?

I think latest bahaviour studies also show that ranking in herds is far more complex than just having an alpha as was once thought, anyway.
 
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amymay said:
Are you able to help the OP, then, by providing this pony with a last, forever, home? If you are - then I think that the owners are looking for £500 for it. You could probably take delivery by next weekend........
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Just in case you missed it Over2You......



So to recap on this lengthy post.

OP has a healthy pony that is an habitual bolter.

Many opinions seem to be that PTS is the most sensible solution - to prevent harm to both the pony and any child that rides it.

However, many opinions have also been to give this pony a chance - with several posters stating that NH is they way to go.

Not ONE of you who have said he can be cured with NH have actually offered to help though. Two posters in particular seemed to have the credential to back up their NH suggestions. One does not want the pony, the other really has no experience of NH it would seem and just trotted the old lines of getting Kelly Marks or Monty Roberts to look at it (sigh.....).

I also suggested yesterday that those of you who genuinly thought the pony was not dangerous - and could be sold - should offer up your children as jockeys to help the OP sell it.

Haven't seen one volunteer - although of course you could have PM'd the OP.

There have been two offers of serious help on here. But none from those of you who wish to see the horse rehabilitated.
 
Ditto the comment re. some of these posters saying Do join up, etc. etc. not putting their hand in their pocket and taking the pony on....

Then again, if the pony is anything like LL, the owner won't let it go.

Little Lad is gorgeous and lovely and if left alone to mooch around a field or be pampered in a stable, he's grand and good fun and very loveable. Put a rider on and we don't know if we'll get a nice quiet plod or a whirlygig of flying hooves. An experienced rider can get on and he'll probably be okay for a while, but then he won't be. No rhyme nor reason.

He will stay alive for as long as I can afford to keep him: he's retired, on DIY livery, has all the checks and care that the others have, so is not a cheap option.

Come the day I can't afford him, he'll be put to sleep. My vet concurs.

He will never, ever be sold or given away - I could not bear him to end up in the wrong hands with the pain and suffereing to him and to those around him that would ensue. I found him scarily fat and unfit and unloved in a field - he's not going back to that.
 
Well crikey! What a response. I have been reading the posts with interest and was determined not stick my two penneth in until I read some comments about dangerous dogs - and certain dog trainers!

I genuinely believe the OP did not mean for such an inflammatory response as this, she is in a tough situation and from what I can tell, very much knows her onions AND has tried all manner of things to help him. The facts are, the pony is currently unsafe to be ridden - and possibly always will be. Realistically, who knows? Someone may manage to cure him, but the day you know he is cured is sadly the day he is retired having never bolted in the meantime. Every ride in between would be similar to playing russian roulette with a child's life. So to me, that effectively rules out this pony from ever being used as a riding pony again, which leaves him with long term companionship as his other option.

Immediately, we already know he can be difficult from the ground (which could possibly be improved), but where are the 'life homes' for these animals? Noone can guarantee this, due to change in personal circumstances. A life home is a home until the pony dies, in which case, the owner would then have to pts. He cannot be sold, or given away, unless in exceptional circumstances where the OP or current owner know for certain that the life home means this, that the new carers would never sell him and he was always to be a companion. So we already know that the OP does not know of anybody who would be truthful in this. Too many people would say they meant it, but the desire is too strong to 'try and cure him'.

I have a three horses with me, who have genuine life homes. They will leave me when they have passed on. One is 14, one is 15 and the other 22. None of them are dangerous, but I do have one who cannot be ridden. She was on loan to someone else, and eventually, yes, someone tried to.

The huge thing here, is the pony's welfare. Not many people will happily stand the cost and time involved to truly, genuinely offer a pony a home for life and promise not to sell him on, or give him away - or what if (as effectively a worthless animal) he ends up in unscrupulous hands? Neglected by either cruelty or ignorance - and my goodness, there seems to be an awful lot more of the latter around!

I think the OP is being a completely respectable and responsible carer in regards to this case, not many people will find themselves in teh same situation and I think she should be commended for her efforts. Please don't try and pin a label of ignorance or uncaring owner on her, she is braver than a lot of people I know myself.

And finally, in relation to the dangerous animals statements, a couple of things. This pony and others like it may be physically fit, but its not always down to handliing and past abuse. Sometimes they have brain issues that cant be fixed or figured out. A good friend of mine who posts on here had a good mare for many, many years - one day, over the stable door, it ripped her face apart. She kept the mare, but when the time came that she could no longer afford the time (not the money) to look after it any more, the mare was destroyed, having lived a good life in a herd - but also having been a real danger to anyone, everytime they needed to care for her. Same goes for dogs - not all dogs attack because of illtreatment or misunderstadning by owners. They can be ill too.

Lastly, I wonder if the poster on here who suggested Cesar Millan as a lifeline has ever seen him work in the flesh? If so, were they witness to any of the animal DEATHS he has inflicted during his off camera training and dog whispering? Just wondered. Its very easy to judge what you think you are seeing, but sometimes there is a much wider picture. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that, but sometimes, sadly, its the reverse.
 
Mugsgame said:
Lastly, I wonder if the poster on here who suggested Cesar Millan as a lifeline has ever seen him work in the flesh? If so, were they witness to any of the animal DEATHS he has inflicted during his off camera training and dog whispering? Just wondered. Its very easy to judge what you think you are seeing, but sometimes there is a much wider picture. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that, but sometimes, sadly, its the reverse.
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Lol don't even get me started....I won't even quote that mans name cos it makes my blood start bubbling!!!! Anyone who watches 45 mins of these so called 'whisperer' showbiz 'trainers' and thinks it's the true reflection needs their bumps feeling!! :rolleyes:
 
Over2You said:
There is no such thing as a dangerous dog. There is such a thing as an uneducated owner. Same applies to the situation with this pony.

How any of you would want this pony DEAD without trying any NH first, is beyond me. I wouldn't let any of you within a mile of my horse. He used to appear as if he were going to bolt years ago, but never did. I re-established myself as the Alpha and that was that. NO problems since.
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Oh For GOODNESS SAKE. You haven't met many rescue dogs then? Or dogs which have been bred and trained to fight? Or bred and trained guard dogs?

The IS such a thing as a dangerous dog. There IS such a thing as a situation which NH won't be able to cure. Read my username and guess what subject I'm passionate about. I have nothing to gain and a lot to lose by lying about NH not being a wonder cure all.

No Alpha, equine or human is going to be able to prevent a horse from blind bolting. I truly believe that. And please answer me something: if you truly believe a human IS able to, would you expect a child to be able to do the same? Would you be happy to put a child back on this pony?

Natural, Traditional, Other.. there are many many many schools of horsemanship which may help this pony. But none which can guarantee that it won't ever bolt with a child on its back again. There are only 2 ways to guarantee that: Ensure that no child ever rides the pony again, or PTS.
 
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