Harsh training or just what it takes to succeed?

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Halfstep

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I had a really interesting conversation with a friend today and it got me wondering. Is is possible to be a professional at the top of your game without being quite hard on your horses? It seems to me that quite a few of our top people are known to be quite tough - even people you would not think of in that way, tbh.

Is that what it takes, and is this why people like me will never make it? Because we are just too soft? And where does anyone draw the line between effective training and discipline and, well, abuse?
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I think pros are just more disciplined. They get on that horse have a plan of what they are working on and then do it. I think they also know how far they can push a horse and with some pros push it to far. Some pros have a very high attrition rate as a lot of pros horses will either become knackered or throw in the towel.
 
Mmmmmmm... We have been talking about this, some one has just moved to my yard after working for a well know pro for a few years- the storys she has to tell are really really nasty and would definatly come under abuse!!
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I see no need to be harsh in training, they need to want to do it because they enjoy it, not because they are scared of not doing it. I often see young horses being ''carried'' round the x.c by a pro, when clearly with any one else they wouldnt get over the first!!
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and I think a possiable cause for horse falls and accidents x.c !?
The sport is I think physcially & mentally hard on horses, in training and competition, but then all equestrian sports are!
But it should never ever be hash or unfair, I want my horses to love it as much as I do!!
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I think you can definately get to the top without harsh techniques, although I guess probably it may be quicker to get there if you force your horse. I imagine there must be quite a few top riders who arent harsh, I cant imagine someone like Mary King beating her horse up for example (maybe Im wrong?!).

I think abuse is forcing the horse when he's clearly unhappy, but then again I guess we're all probably guilty of perhaps forceing a horse in the sense of a horse who won't load for example... I dont know, thats a hard question - someone else answer it!
 
I agree harsh training is not needed, i have two completly different examples of riders that both event an inter level, i know them both well and one is what you would call a harsh rider who will beat the horse round a course who physically and mental is not ready, she put one pony (15hh) with no experience after having couple of months straignt into novice without previously taking it to ANY events, as you can guess didint go well at all! other rider is very quiet and accurate she will work the horse hard enough to its fitness and prepare them mentally needless to say she has succeded very well with all her horses!
 
Perhaps as Lec says, the difference is simply that amateurs have only a limited amount of horsepower with which to succeed. Pros tend to have more horses, hence a higher attrition rate is acceptable.

And I suppose some horses actually thrive in a high powered environment being pushed to the limit regularly. But some don't - and I suppose that is where the problem lies.

 
I know a very smart Sandro Hit horse (5yo) who the owner paid £1500. It looked weak and gangly last year but has matured nicely this year but it went to two pro yards in Dressage and Eventing and was thrown out of both when all it needed was time.
 
Having had the pleasure of training with 2 members of this years Olympic Squad (eventing) i can most defo say that yes, you can get to the top without being harsh on them!!
One of those riders was very fair on their horses, that rider is well respected and the most successful..
The other is very hard on them, they didn't make the team, and if some people knew how hard they can be, they might get a shock.
 
I would definitely say most pro event riders are pretty harsh, some borderline on abuse. I have worked for a few and seen far too much of it. This is the reason I'd never buy a horse from a pro as they are ultimately going to be much stronger riders than I am. The horse might well have a good 'record' but ultimately I am not capable of beating a horse into submission.

Many people advertise their horses as 'professionally produced' - as soon as I read that, I move on to the next ad.
 
Oh Sandro Hit...I'll have it
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My bestest boy Jayson was with an Olympic rider when he was 5....I keep intouch with his old owner, he told me she gave up on him as she couldnt get him over a x.c fence schooling, he just ran round the feild backwards....all he needed was time aswell, he is amazing x.c!!
I think it is very sad and short sighted.... makes you wonder how many potentially brilliant competition horses have ended up on the scrap heap?!
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My mare was another pro cast off, got sold in malvern sales because the pro couldnt get a clear xc or sub 40 dressage out of her.
tbh the lucky ones are the ones that do get sold on.
 
i totally echo what hannahbanana said, except that i disagree about Pros being able to carry an unwilling horse round the xc... i used to work for a top rider (Olympic gold medallist), he had a horse that won its first PN but bottled it immediately at Novice and that was the end of its career as an eventer. For all his accuracy, determination and skill, that horse said NO and nothing apart from a crane would have got it over!
working a horse in tension, when it is frightened or worried, makes it much more likely to damage itself - tight muscles pull, and adversely affect the tendons and ligaments. i think this is why the really really top riders who can get what they want through persuasion rather than force keep producing horse after horse at top level.
(re: tension affecting muscles etc - i read an interview with Paula Radcliffe where she explained that she used to seize up at the end of marathons because she used to start really trying to sprint the very last bit to win... and she'd get overtaken. she was taught to stay relaxed and just keep running, and didn't get overtaken any more...) well, i thought it was interesting!
 
Some I know can never be made to do it, but I do feel they can get a horse round a Nov corse when prehaps they are not ready so they can sell them, they are sold on to amatures from their record and it all goes wrong as horse has been relying on its jocky so much- as Fanatical said about
professionally produced! I saw this at Belton a couple of years ago...horse went in to the 1st fence like a 4yr old, wobbling all over the place..it got round but not relaxed and happy!!
Very intresting about 'tension affecting muscles '
made me think about my coloured mare, she has only just started finishing her x.c well and not tiered as she has only just stared to relax in her course and not pull like a train the whole way!!!
 
yes, that reminds me, a friend got the ride on a horse that had been with a former top top rider (Brit teams for years) and it had won 2 novices iirc, and she (good jockey!) couldn't get it to canter a 20m circle it was so unbalanced!
 
Someone once said to me, the difference between a pro and an amateur is that the amateur wants to be friends with their horse. I think there is a lot of truth in that!

It was Ian Stark who said you ruin more than one good horse on the way to the top. His way of saying that it is a learning curve to be a top rider and that by the time you get there the horses you had when you were starting out you'd do things very differently with.
 
Do you find this with dealers and sales too? Four year old horses who are working in an established, uphill outline, with medium trots to die for and muscle tone consistent with a mature animal?

They fetch mega money, but do they go on to lead successful, sound lives? Just wondered...
 
I think it all depends on what what you mean by harsh.

I often see professional dressage riders who expect a lot from their horses, but I don't think this is a problem. They have high standards and work to them, when I would be taking 10,000 breaks to recover.

Do they give up on horses too quickly? Well if they have a stable full to ride and clients waiting to teach maybe it's just not cost effective to spend time on a horse that is unwlling or unable.

If you mean by harsh, cruel then the answer is no. Not that I know that many professional riders well, but I do think that unless your horse likes working with you it won't give you that 110% you will need to win at the top competitions.
 
I used to work for an Olympic Dressage rider and she was very nice to her horses, she treated each one as an individual and her training methods were brilliant. I never saw her use a whip on any of her horses, in fact she used to stop and give them sugar lumps every 10 mins and yet all of her horses were fab.
Her Olympic horse she got cheap as everyone else had more or less given up on him, it took her a long time but she took him to Seoul and did 2 European Champs and 1 world championships with him and still owned him into his 20's.
 
OH and I are always having this conversation. He believes that some professionals can be blase as they have an endless stream of horses to fall back on if one gets broken or doesn't have the right 'Temperament'

When you have just one or two horses you have to look after what you have and work with issues. It often results in a compromise as the bottom line is we would rather have a horse with faults that you can ride than a broken horse you can't.
 
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When you have just one or two horses you have to look after what you have and work with issues. It often results in a compromise as the bottom line is we would rather have a horse with faults that you can ride than a broken horse you can't.

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I think this probably gets to the nub of it. I can think of quite a few high level dressage riders who have a huge attrition rate with horses, but they can afford to because owners keep sending them more! But I do think its rather sad to think of the number of quite truly amazing horses who have fallen by the wayside recently before they've reached the top. Whether this is just through bad luck or from being pushed past their limits too young - who can tell?
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Do you find this with dealers and sales too? Four year old horses who are working in an established, uphill outline, with medium trots to die for and muscle tone consistent with a mature animal?

They fetch mega money, but do they go on to lead successful, sound lives? Just wondered...

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I've seen pics of 3 yr olds going like that, with the huge 'powerising' trot. No, they don't last, they get absolutely wrecked unless they are phenomenally tough. The ends of their bones do not finish forming until they are 7.
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there is a horse who was a top top young horse which is now an absolute cripple. i won't say any more because it would be too specific.
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btw, Seahorse, which rider was that please, i'd love to know, she sounds wonderful.
 
Kerilli, I know the horse you are referring too (I think.....) and yes, totally agree.

But it seems that the trend now is away from the huge auction trot production stuff towards a much more traditional way of viewing young horses. The Classical Sales at Warendorf this year was a big success and showcased top horses that are not overproduced and hot housed.
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We were so lucky in that when we got Blitz he was just broken so he was a blank canvass.

We have taken our time and produced him slowly and correctly, it has at times been frustrating when we were going out doing young horse classes and saw other horses who are so 'pumped' they looked 10 not 5! But and here is the crucial point... very few horses we saw doing YH classes have ever been seen again. There is the odd one, an we all know who they are
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Diva however was 5 - she had been rushed and over produced and ridden badly in draw reins and had a silly auction trot.

It looks amazing but she is so wide behind you could probably sail the QE2 behind her. We think she could have made GP if we had had her from the same age.

Now... well she is a poppet but has too many issues to ever be considered a serious GP prospect
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[ QUOTE ]
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Do you find this with dealers and sales too? Four year old horses who are working in an established, uphill outline, with medium trots to die for and muscle tone consistent with a mature animal?

They fetch mega money, but do they go on to lead successful, sound lives? Just wondered...

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen pics of 3 yr olds going like that, with the huge 'powerising' trot. No, they don't last, they get absolutely wrecked unless they are phenomenally tough. The ends of their bones do not finish forming until they are 7.
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there is a horse who was a top top young horse which is now an absolute cripple. i won't say any more because it would be too specific.
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btw, Seahorse, which rider was that please, i'd love to know, she sounds wonderful.

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It was Bar Hammond
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i have to say i do think that some professionals can be very hard on horses- maybe the strict discipline is what makes them so successful, but it cant be fun for the horse. eg. the use of spiked boots and rapping are all very common practice (a lot of my friends have worked for top name showjumpers where that is normal) but for them if it means the difference between winning a class and not, i guess that is how they make a living. cant say i agree with it though! i think a lot of the time it is forgotten that horses are animals and make mistakes like us, and also our idea of fun is very different to theirs! it does seem that for eventing the horses need to be better trained to trust the rider and to do well in all phases-the horse is a massive animal with a mind of its own.. would it really be forced to do things it doesnt want to?
 
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