Has anyone ever had a horse/pony that attacked other horses it was led past/with? How did you fix it?

[maya2008]

Pony my son is helping with, is coming on so nicely in every other way. It’s just this - she randomly reverses into other ponies for no apparent reason, and attempts to double barrel them. It happens in a microsecond, and there is no warning. She does it to everyone and anyone - no matter how kind they have been towards her, or where their position in the herd is. She can travel somewhere with a pony, unload next to them, walk alongside/near them for 5 mins then randomly go for them. By the body language of the other pony, it’s taking them by surprise so they definitely haven’t done anything to initiate it.

She responds better to reward based training/clicker training than to being told off, as she struggles to connect the telling off with what she just did. So far my best idea is lead her with a tolerant pony and just keep rewarding her for NOT kicking it, then yanking out the way when she has a go. That does put some poor pony in the line of fire though.

Anyone got a better idea? If I had to guess, I would say it looks like fear aggression does in dogs, except less predictable. Perhaps she’s trying to keep a lid on it, then runs out of ‘spoons’ and feels she must have a go to make it clear she’s not a pushover.

 

[AmyMay]

Stop giving it treats.

 

[maya2008]

Stop giving it treats.

We headed to clicker training after trying all traditional methods. She does not understand what she’s being told off for, unless you train the behaviour you want positively first. Totally clueless. Just gets jittery and upset but does not learn.

Train the behaviour with clicker training and you then don’t need the treats for that behaviour. You can then handle her normally, complete with telling her off as necessary, because she now understands what she did wrong.

Months in a traditional setup - still leading like a nutter and rude on the ground. Similar methods with us, same result. Tried clicker, in two 15 minute sessions I had a pony who understood how to lead nicely next to a person and how to stand still when asked (plus all the rest - is now rideable and going well under saddle).

It’s so far the ONLY method that has worked for her, and has produced rapid results in every other area. Just trying to figure out how to apply it to this situation. I only learnt to clicker train for my own project pony this year and have only applied it to two horses so far - hence hoping someone else has more experience!

 

[ycbm]

Is it this pony? If so I think people need to know the full story before they can help.

Ideas for training the traumatised, reactive horse…

I was just curious! Being able to be mounted smoothly from the ground is an essential part of education for us. When whips are dropped, the youngster you are leading wraps themselves around something, your pony gets a stone in their hoof, the one you are on decides they absolutely cannot go...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

If it wasn't this pony, I would say that you simply aren't reacting quickly enough to tell her off if she is unable to connect the telling off with what she did wrong.

But with this pony I'd want to see the behaviour myself before I would want to advise.
.

 

[maya2008]

Is it this pony? If so I think people need to know the full story before they can help.

Ideas for training the traumatised, reactive horse…

I was just curious! Being able to be mounted smoothly from the ground is an essential part of education for us. When whips are dropped, the youngster you are leading wraps themselves around something, your pony gets a stone in their hoof, the one you are on decides they absolutely cannot go...

forums.horseandhound.co.uk

If it wasn't this pony, I would say that you simply aren't reacting quickly enough to tell her off if she is unable to connect the telling off with what she did wrong.

But with this pony I'd want to see the behaviour myself before I would want to advise.
.

No it’s not. It’s a friend’s little Welsh. We offered to help because they are still borrowing one of ours any time the kids want to do anything together. Have got it leading, standing to be tacked up/mounted, loading politely, hacking out and going forwards in the school. Did all that with clicker to show her what we wanted, then she understood if she stepped out of line and we told her off.

Just need to stop pony reversing into other ponies randomly, add a few more miles onto it and hand it back. Hopefully soon!

If pony was human I would say she was ND. Struggles hugely with social interaction in a herd also.

 

[ycbm]

No it’s not. It’s a friend’s little Welsh. We offered to help because they are still borrowing one of ours any time the kids want to do anything together. Have got it leading, standing to be tacked up/mounted, loading politely, hacking out and going forwards in the school. Did all that with clicker to show her what we wanted, then she understood if she stepped out of line and we told her off.

Just need to stop pony reversing into other ponies randomly, add a few more miles onto it and hand it back. Hopefully soon!

If pony was human I would say she was ND. Struggles hugely with social interaction in a herd also.

Difficult one. I wouldn't be confident you'll find a solution I'm afraid.
.

 

[Abacus]

I have known two (one horse, one pony) that had similar behaviour. Both mares.

The horse only behaved like this at or very near home. Out on a hack she was perfectly polite with others. Took me by surprise the first time as we turned into the yard drive - I was riding another horse, she backed up an kicked, got me in the ankle. We were not that close to her: she deliberately backed up to do it. I don't know the psychology but think there is a territory/dominance thing going on. Second time she was tied on the yard as was my horse at a good distance away. She broke the baler twine to pull back, back up across the yard and kick him. Did damage that time. Because there was clearly some sort of dominance thing going on relating to other horses we just had to manage her and make sure she couldn’t get near to others (although in the field she was fine).

The pony was in every other way perfect, we had her on loan for my son when he was about 8. She would kick any other pony behind her or to the side. Because we had a bunch of kids who rode together and weren’t really old enough to reliably keep away, I ended up sending her back. I couldn’t risk her kicking one of the other children.

I don’t think you can train it out of them. A good adult handler or rider can make sure it doesn’t happen and be strong in preventing it, but whatever urge is there, I don’t believe you can remove.

 

[maya2008]

I have known two (one horse, one pony) that had similar behaviour. Both mares.

The horse only behaved like this at or very near home. Out on a hack she was perfectly polite with others. Took me by surprise the first time as we turned into the yard drive - I was riding another horse, she backed up an kicked, got me in the ankle. We were not that close to her: she deliberately backed up to do it. I don't know the psychology but think there is a territory/dominance thing going on. Second time she was tied on the yard as was my horse at a good distance away. She broke the baler twine to pull back, back up across the yard and kick him. Did damage that time. Because there was clearly some sort of dominance thing going on relating to other horses we just had to manage her and make sure she couldn’t get near to others (although in the field she was fine).

The pony was in every other way perfect, we had her on loan for my son when he was about 8. She would kick any other pony behind her or to the side. Because we had a bunch of kids who rode together and weren’t really old enough to reliably keep away, I ended up sending her back. I couldn’t risk her kicking one of the other children.

I don’t think you can train it out of them. A good adult handler or rider can make sure it doesn’t happen and be strong in preventing it, but whatever urge is there, I don’t believe you can remove.

That’s very interesting, thank you. So far this one hasn’t done so under saddle, and has been ridden side by side out hacking at a cautious distance. Interesting about the territory thing. Maybe hacking is ‘safe’ because they are away from home?

Flash points for us so far have been passing another pony in the tie up area, being led past/near another pony in the field or in the arena.

 

[paddy555]

- she randomly reverses into other ponies for no apparent reason, and attempts to double barrel them.

my haflinger gelding did this. No apparent reason and no way of predicting it. Never found a way to stop it he just seized his chance. Didn't do it to all horses,he rode out very nicely with my arab. Could be a strangers horse. Whatever too his fancy really.

although it sounds pathetic you couldn't really be quick enough to stop it and when it was starting to happen he just backed regardless. Often in a small space so no room to spin him round and he wouldn't drive on once he started.
I just gave other horses a wide berth, made sure people didn't get into a position where he could do it and that they knew. I'd almost forgotten about it but it is exactly this. Never had any other horse do this. Some deliberately kick etc but this was different. He never bit a horse, never did it in the field just out riding.

His only excuse was that he simply couldn't read or understand other horses. He was a bottle fed baby, I got him at 2 and he just never understood horses. He could tie up in the yard and would be fine with a horse close by it was just riding. I suspect it might have been fear, he thought he was getting into a situation he couldn't cope with and reacted first.

no way I could train him out of it, just a case of vigilance.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Sounds from your posts that you won't want to explore this option but there is no R+ way that I can think of, so my temptation would be to make it hard work for her every time she does it, so immediately react by making her do something she finds tricky - backing up, tight circles or even a small circle lunge, just whatever moves her feet. The long and short of it being to discourage the behaviour by making her associate it with hard work, and thus making the desirable trait the easy option.

Might work, might not - could be worth a try.

 

[maya2008]

my haflinger gelding did this. No apparent reason and no way of predicting it. Never found a way to stop it he just seized his chance. Didn't do it to all horses,he rode out very nicely with my arab. Could be a strangers horse. Whatever too his fancy really.

although it sounds pathetic you couldn't really be quick enough to stop it and when it was starting to happen he just backed regardless. Often in a small space so no room to spin him round and he wouldn't drive on once he started.
I just gave other horses a wide berth, made sure people didn't get into a position where he could do it and that they knew. I'd almost forgotten about it but it is exactly this. Never had any other horse do this. Some deliberately kick etc but this was different. He never bit a horse, never did it in the field just out riding.

His only excuse was that he simply couldn't read or understand other horses. He was a bottle fed baby, I got him at 2 and he just never understood horses. He could tie up in the yard and would be fine with a horse close by it was just riding. I suspect it might have been fear, he thought he was getting into a situation he couldn't cope with and reacted first.

no way I could train him out of it, just a case of vigilance.

That is exactly it! One minute fine, next minute it’s happened and my reaction is fast enough to stop her connecting but there’s no time for anything else! At least she’s small enough I can pull her away.

Friend and I were debating if she’d had a non-standard upbringing the other day. She can’t read another horse at all. Turned out, she mis-reads all their signals and completely ignores every attempt to communicate, until all they have left is to go for her. Then she just acts aggrieved.

She had no respect for personal space with humans either when she arrived here, and no matter what you did, she didn’t ‘get’ it. I have clicked trained her to stand, and to walk at a polite distance away.

 

[paddy555]

If pony was human I would say she was ND. Struggles hugely with social interaction in a herd also.

I think this is probably it. Maybe a thorough look at her history may help

However I don't think it is a training thing be it treats, clicker or anything else. It is a "horse" reaction. When it goes wrong mentally for her she reacts as a pony rather than as you could train her to. Instinct takes over. Fear takes over, maybe she was previously bullied and now tries to protect herself even if she misreads the situation.

You could take her out with a pony who is at the absolute bottom of the pile who she can mentally cope with and she will be fine but then when you put her next to another pony instinct will take over again.

Easy enough for adults to understand keep their horses out of trouble but maybe not as easy for kids to understand and remember.

 

[maya2008]

Sounds from your posts that you won't want to explore this option but there is no R+ way that I can think of, so my temptation would be to make it hard work for her every time she does it, so immediately react by making her do something she finds tricky - backing up, tight circles or even a small circle lunge, just whatever moves her feet. The long and short of it being to discourage the behaviour by making her associate it with hard work, and thus making the desirable trait the easy option.

Might work, might not - could be worth a try.

With this pony, negative reinforcement has not, to date, resulted in a learning experience. All it has done is made her anxious/upset with the human or horse involved. Hence heading in the R+ direction.

She just doesn’t understand - so she could be reversing and you could, if you were on her, say ‘No!’, apply the whip and she wouldn’t understand why. She might be able to connect with the idea that whip/legs mean forwards (because she knows that command) but no more. For example, she kicks out at you, you say ‘No!’ the second the leg comes up and tap the leg. She scoots away, looks crossly at you and then, a few minutes later, does it again. And again the next day. And again another time. No learning, when the same human can do the same thing to another horse and they learn. Conversely, reward her for standing nicely when you are working around her, and very soon she understands when you tell her off for moving, because now she knows what the expectation is.

She’s useless with horses because she never learns when they tell her off. Just looks confused and gets upset.

 

[Celtic Fringe]

My old Welsh Cob really disliked other horses in his space.
As others have said it may not be possible to train her not to react to other ponies but manage her as safely as possible.
When ridden my cob would kick any horse that got too close behind and would try to either kick or bite anything too close alongside. I always kept him at the back if we were riding in company and he was fine with that. I got him when he was ~ 15 and he didn't change at all until he died in his early 30s.
He lived out in a herd choosing the pile of hay that HE preferred and got hard feed first at a good distance from the others. Often he just had to glare (the other horses knew him well) and they would move away but he was one of the few horses I've seen who could literally trot backwards to kick out at any herd members who 'forgot' their place. Although he was quite dominant in my experience he only ever (slightly) injured one other horse who had no herd sense and annoyed the others until they got totally fed up. In the end that horse had single turn out.
I know my cob sounds a total nightmare but we managed him accordingly. He learned to 'stay' in the field and not come close if I wanted to get to any of the others. I never knew him to kick or bite a human and he was incredibly attached to me.

 

[Lois Lame]

Do you know her history? Was she a bottle-fed youngster who learned no manners from her biological mother (just to use oft-used expressions these day) on in fact anyone?
(Responding to Maya's most recent post.)

 

[SEL]

@maya2008 I have a hand reared mare and even though she's 14 now strange horses always stress her out - she just can't read horse behaviour well enough.

One I know who did lash out all the time improved on regumate.

 

[mustardsmum]

Our mare lunges as if to kill her field mate when we bring him home from a hack with teeth bared and mouth gaping open at her window. Luckily there’s a grill over her window between her and him. I started poking a carrot through the grill as I walked past, now she waits for her carrot and has stopped going to bite. So positive cues can help. They get on fine in the field together but if you saw her at the window, it’s quite alarming. It’s something she has always done and we have mainly ignored her, once we are tied up in the yard she goes back to normal. The carrot idea was a bit tongue in cheek, but then it really changed her behaviour! She gets very stressy when we come back (pawing, stamping and running around her stable) so I just put the grumpy face down to stress. However I have no doubt if the grill wasn’t there she would certainly have bitten either me or him! Sometimes you have to think outside of the box, I don’t think my horse is a cow, I think it’s a stress response. Bizarrely she appears completely fine when she’s left.

 

[Goldenstar]

It very difficult to advise without seeing what goes on.
However the place to start is with focus, when a horse is being handled it needs to be focused on its handler so improving this basic area always helps .

However a pony with this issue is unlikely to be suitable as a child’s pony you can’t expect children to concentrate on what’s going on around them to the degree that you would need to do so with a pony like this .
This pony could harm a child .
i am assuming the pony is unshod behind if not you must remove the shoes .

 

[millitiger]

In sorry to say but I would be thinking PTS.

A horse which purposely backs up and double barrels is so dangerous, particularly as you say she can't/won't be told off and it has no impact.

This could very easily end in a dead pony or person and I just absolutely would not tolerate it.

I've only ridden one horse who did this and she did it out of dominance- she got a very hard, sharp telling with the whip immediately.
It only took one time before she was 'cured' and after that a sharp word or leg on would change her mind.
After a week or 2 the thought of kicking had completely left her mind and she was completely reliable. But she was young and not fearful.

 

[ycbm]

That is exactly it! One minute fine, next minute it’s happened and my reaction is fast enough to stop her connecting but there’s no time for anything else! At least she’s small enough I can pull her away.

Friend and I were debating if she’d had a non-standard upbringing the other day. She can’t read another horse at all. Turned out, she mis-reads all their signals and completely ignores every attempt to communicate, until all they have left is to go for her. Then she just acts aggrieved.

She had no respect for personal space with humans either when she arrived here, and no matter what you did, she didn’t ‘get’ it. I have clicked trained her to stand, and to walk at a polite distance away.

She sounds like a bottle fed orphan.
.

 

[Sealine]

I knew a hand reared foal from his birth until he was PTS as 24 years old and a lot of what you are saying is very familiar. He couldn't read other horses and in the field when he was young he got many a kicking as he was so in the face of the other horses. As an adult he was prone to kicking others in the field or when led with another. I used to hack out with my friend and he could be nappy and when he napped he came backwards fast, kicking out with both hinds. I quickly learnt to take evasive action to prevent my horse getting kicked. This horse needed very firm handling and was always led on a chifney and he was also difficult to load. A natural horsemanship trainer described him as autistic which I thought was an interesting way to look at it.

 

[Orangehorse]

I had a mare that would kick other horses if they were too close, was a bit of a misery in the stable and handy with her back legs (the only horse I have every been kicked by and that was after 12 months of ownership) and used to back up to me in the field and threaten to kick if I was poo picking for example. To the extent that I didn't let my children go in the field to their pony by themselves. She definitely improved over time but I still had to be careful as she seemed to "stalk", ie try to get closer and closer when warming up to a grey for example - she really didn't like grey horses - although she wouldn't actually go for other horses and she was great to ride generally, very well schooled and could do a good dressage test.

For the threatening double barrels in the field - this is not new horsemanship - the backing up and threatening to kick was really annoying me. She may have been protecting her pony, but I didn't like it and there was no need. I did all the "no" making a noise, jumping up and down and shouting and clapping, etc. In the end, as she reversed up to me with my wheelbarrow I picked up the rubber feed bowl and threw it at her rump and it connected. I did this in total three times and after that she didn't trouble me in the field at all. A lesson learned.

I never did cure her of kicking other horses. Even now, if I had a dedicated kicker I really wouldn't know how to deal with it. I had a pony mare that would hump her back and give a warning, but she didn't kick out, and all the others have been geldings who simply didn't kick in the field or being ridden.

Is the the one time you give a good whack with the whip when riding if you think they are going to kick out? I don't know.

 

[Titchy Pony]

I will preface this by saying I have never tried it or know of any one who has, so please use your discretion if you attempt it and make sure you and anyone else involved has all the protective gear necessary (hard hat, etc...)
If looking for an R+ solution, I would look at what people are doing with dogs as they are way ahead of the game when it comes to R+.
One way of stopping unwanted behaviour is teaching an incompatible behaviour. In your case, stand or walk on are incompatible with double barrelling another horse. From what you've said, she has already learnt these behaviours, so now she needs to learn them around other horses.
You could start with stand and lead another horse by at a distance in front of her. Build up to leading closer and closer to her in front of her. Them start lead past her side from the front, again starting far away and then closer if she is ok. Then move to leading past her side but coming from behind, again starting far away (and never within kicking distance). Then lead behind her (at a safe distance!). Repeat with a different horse / pony, then with multiple horses /ponies at the same time, first going in the same direction and building up to them moving independently.
The reverse it. Do the same process with the other horse standing and little kicker "walking on".
You could then build up to both little kicker and other horse "walking on", then "trotting on", perhaps ridden (start ride and lead if necessary).
Repeat in different locations.
Repeat with different handlers.

This a break down of something you could try that might work, but I'm not sure I'd ever trust her to be a child's pony or to ever be sold on.

 

[paddy555]

Is the the one time you give a good whack with the whip when riding if you think they are going to kick out? I don't know.

I'm not sure what the benefit would be of whacking a pony who is scared of other horses because she doesn't understand them and is only trying to protect herself. Will it make her any less scared of them? will she understand horse behaviour any better? OTOH will it simply sour her against humans when it is at least possible with training to build a good relationship with people.
That is going to do nothing for the human and horse training and will ruin anything OP has managed to achieve between herself and the pony in her ground handling.
For me the best way forward would be for OP to increase her ground handling so that a person (any person) can safely deal with the pony on the ground.

Maya, is the pony out with other horses? would her anxiety be any better if she had a fenced off area on her own? she is clearly not learning to be a herd member so would she be less stressed in her own patch.

 

[Caol Ila]

I'm not sure what the benefit would be of whacking a pony who is scared of other horses because she doesn't understand them and is only trying to protect herself. Will it make her any less scared of them? will she understand horse behaviour any better? OTOH will it simply sour her against humans when it is at least possible with training to build a good relationship with people.
That is going to do nothing for the human and horse training and will ruin anything OP has managed to achieve between herself and the pony in her ground handling.
For me the best way forward would be for OP to increase her ground handling so that a person (any person) can safely deal with the pony on the ground.

Maya, is the pony out with other horses? would her anxiety be any better if she had a fenced off area on her own? she is clearly not learning to be a herd member so would she be less stressed in her own patch.

My old horse was rubbish at being a herd member, and for the year that I tried to integrate her into a herd, she was a bit of a menace to any horse leading past her while she was tied up. That went away once she was on individual turnout, and she was usually fine to handle and ride around other horses so long as all horses were being controlled by humans, either on the ground or under saddle.

 

[maya2008]

Thanks everyone for the replies, I was hoping for thoughts and experiences to help us shape a plan and we have definitely got those.

Pushed the envelope a bit hacking today and she didn’t go for anyone when next to or in the middle. Hopefully I can use her calmness under saddle to help her understand she’s safe and they won’t go for her, then try some other ideas when she’s being led to fix that (the idea to look at dog training is a very good one!).

Friend felt sorry for her, felt there was a nice pony in there somewhere and this is where we are. I’m not a fan but I agree she’s not nasty. Just confused. If you open lines of communication she can understand, she’s actually very obliging.

She’s in her own pen here, but will be out in a herd when she goes home (and was prior to her little holiday at ours). Our kindest Welsh A is trying really really hard to make friends over the fence, so you never know, she might manage to teach her something.

 

[Teaselmeg]

Has she had a thorough vet check ? It could be anticipation of pain or maybe hormones ( try Regumate ??).

 

[Snowfilly]

This is the sort of behaviour that can kill another pony. Get it wrong and she’ll break a leg.

I wouldn’t ever ride her with other horses again. You’re risking their lives.

Yes, it might be possible to train her out of it. Yes, it might have all sorts of causes but none of that will matter if you have to pick up the literal pieces of another pony with a shattered leg and kids who have watched it happen.

She’s dangerous, potentially lethally so.

 

[I'm Dun]

This is the sort of behaviour that can kill another pony. Get it wrong and she’ll break a leg.

I wouldn’t ever ride her with other horses again. You’re risking their lives.

Yes, it might be possible to train her out of it. Yes, it might have all sorts of causes but none of that will matter if you have to pick up the literal pieces of another pony with a shattered leg and kids who have watched it happen.

She’s dangerous, potentially lethally so.

Its more likely to be a childs leg she shatters. I've heard of it happening more than once.

 

[hock]

That sounds like a really difficult problem. I don’t really have any advice. We have a very strong alpha mare that takes absolutely no rubbish from anyone and so we tend to turn anything naughty out with her for a few weeks. It is absolutely not a democracy with her and puts good herd manners on everyone. But I accept the responsibilities and would only turn my own out with her. Thats the only thing I would be tempted to try.

Best of luck, I’d be interested in hearing how you get on.