Has anyone ever had a horse with these symptoms?

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Spacehopper

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I have a 14 year old native type who has not been himself since extensive box rest for a fractured leg 2 1/4 years ago. His symptoms are something of a puzzle as nothing quite adds up.
He had the vet today for a second opinion and is waiting for the results of blood tests and a referral to hospital, but she doesn't seem to think they will find what is wrong.

His symptoms to date in summary are:

7[SUP]th[/SUP] December 2011
Hairline fracture to near fore radius. Diagnosed by bone scan on 16[SUP]th[/SUP] December. Treatment with 1 week antibiotics, 3 weeks bute/danilon (changed to danilon on refusal to eat bute). Box rest with walking in hand commencing after 8 weeks. Had to have ACP and valerian for 2 months. First turn out early March in small pen – went wild and came in very stiff.

Mid/late March 2012
Treated for stiffness by McTimoney chiro. It appeared that the stiffness was as a result of him going wild in the field when his muscles were soft from box rest. This resolved on treatment.

Late March – Dec 2012
He remained sound and returned to full work. By the end of the year he was competing BD again. Despite this I felt he was becoming awkward – but this was a subtle change, which would not be noticed by anyone who had not known him beforehand. He was not getting sufficient hay at the yard he was on and was not getting regular turnout so I took the decision to move him.

Jan 2013 – Summer 2013
Moved to a yard where he is fed ad lib hay and has daily turnout at end of Dec 2012. Moving Tali caused him to become stressed – which is very out of character. He became very spooky and unpredictable and remained awkward to ride in the school. Despite this he had good days away from home and moved very well – competing and winning at BD novice. I did however feel that something was wrong – despite him being sound, active, shiny and outwardly appearing in good health.

October 2013
Began to poo excessively when ridden in the school (stress poo). He also became grumpy, biting leadrope when groomed behind elbows and between front legs which is very out of character, but was not consistent from one day to the next.

Early/Mid November 2013
Began to feel crooked when ridden

15[SUP]th[/SUP] Nov 2013
Seen by a holistic vet. Problems found in duodenum, hind gut, sacrum, lumbar spine. This appeared consistent with his behaviour at the time. Treated with osteopathy and put onto succeed and coconut oil.

Mid/Late November 2013
Grumpiness disappeared, he seemed happier. Brought back into light work on 21[SUP]st[/SUP] Nov and he was keen and happy to be ridden. No stress pooing. Slight crookedness apparent on the left rein but improved from earlier in the month. Clear worm count 25[SUP]th[/SUP] Nov.


30th Nov 2013 – Mid Jan 2014
Set back. Became grumpy again. Early December weird lumps on side appeared. Sheath became filled. Became stiff/crooked to the point of appearing unsound on off hind. Tail carried to the left. Didn’t want to stretch out his right hand side so permanently bent left. Had ups and downs during this period.

Lump pics:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22cBghImfU4bDB5cjUya0xvRC11TENGUU4tc0xnNEZ5TUNr/edit?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B22cBghImfU4aFpWWW1MVFNHd2Uwd3lldkNYUEtiT0xaRW13/edit?usp=sharing

Jan 15[SUP]th[/SUP] 2014
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] appointment with holistic vet. Her opinion was gut had improved but problems with head/skull, shoulder, pelvic region, gelding scar and ileum. Treatment with craniosacral therapy. He came back into work again and was sound, not grumpy, not spooky. Still slightly crooked, tail still carried to left but not as marked. Sheath became less filled.

End of Jan 2014
Another setback. Grumpy. Crooked. Not wanting to stretch right hand side when ridden. Not moving over his back.

Feb 6[SUP]th[/SUP] 2014
3[SUP]rd[/SUP] appointment with holistic vet. More craniosacral therapy mostly in area from croup to dock, also upper neck. Tali remained crooked after this – but it was a crookedness that could be improved with light work unlike previously. He improved over the next 3 weeks and felt happy.

Feb 28[SUP]th[/SUP] 2014
Another setback. Crooked again. Started to poo excessively when ridden again. By 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] March he was back to being grumpy and biting leadrope when groomed around elbows/between front legs again. Sheath back up. A few hives (about 10) on quarters on 28[SUP]th[/SUP] only.

5[SUP]th[/SUP] March 2014
4[SUP]th[/SUP] appointment with holistic vet. She feels that his hindgut (both colon and small intestine) is his main problem and that the failure to respond to succeed in late 2013 was a red herring. Believed microbial imbalance in gut and put him on colloidal silver as an antimicrobial warning he’d feel worse before he felt better.

7[SUP]th-[/SUP]17th March 2014
Appears grumpier. A few hives (about 10) on quarters (on two occasions each lasting one day only). Sheath filled. Lumps still present. bottom of the filled area of the sheath is cold to touch.

[FONT=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]Throughout this he has not lost weight and his droppings have remained normal in appearance.[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]I am stumped. Lots of things seem to match some of the symptoms but be contradicted by others.
Any thoughts on potential causes appreciated.[/FONT]
 
Why haven't you had a conventional vet look at him. Do you know what holistic medicine that works is called - medicine...
 
I would see if there is anything that has remained constant in his diet throughout the problems and remove it for at least a month and see if there is any improvement.
 
Another that thinks you need a proper diagnosis.

I have no idea why people doggedly carry on with holistic 'vets' with no resolution to the problem, instead of getting a proper vet and a proper diagnosis.

He is telling you that he is in pain somewhere IMO and you need a full work up to find out where.

Good luck with it :)
 
l've just looked at the timeline and this has been going on for 3 years?!?! Poor horse :( Get a proper vet out ASAP :( The poor thing needs a resolution...
 
Queenbee said:
I think you need a proper vet to take a look, diagnose and treat.
Click to expand...

See the first paragraph of my post. He has a second opinion from a different vet today (from one of the biggest equine practices in the country) and is awaiting referral to a hospital. So he has now been seen by two fully qualified vets, one who prefers to use alternative remedies where possible (but is still a member of the royal college of veterinary surgeons, and often has difficult cases referred to her from well respected equine vets) and another who is a conventional vet.

Please people, don't imply that I am neglecting him in any way as I can assure you that I am not.
 
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amymay said:
How was his leg fractured?

And what is he fed?

When was his saddle last checked?
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Leg was fractured by a kick - the kick itself is healed and he is perfectly sound but he's not been himself in some way since then.
He is fed ad lib hay and a very small feed of fast fibre with a general purpose vitamin/mineral supplement (globalvite).
He has a treeless saddle after 7 different saddle fitters (over the last 8 years) failed to find a saddle that fits him.
 
Spacehopper said:
See the first paragraph of my post. He has a second opinion from a vet today and is awaiting referral to a hospital. So he has now been seen by two fully qualified vets, one who prefers to use alternative remedies where possible (but is still a member of the royal college of veterinary surgeons) and another who is a conventional vet.
Click to expand...


Oh well, in that case I take it back I'm so sorry, yes four years is a very acceptable time frame to get a vet out :/

Back to your main point in question I suspect what you may be trying to do is find one diagnosis that fits all symptoms, this is possibly where the problem lies as the horse may have more than one condition that's causing the symptoms. Or the excessive pooing could be pain related (just a thought) in addition, get yourself looked at, crookedness isn't always down to the horse, often it is caused by the rider, the horse then builds up unevenly. But your best bet is to start with that referral and a full top to toe evaluation, better late than never I suppose
 
I am not against holistic or alternative therapies in the slightest.
What I AM against is holistic therapists just throwing supplements and herbs at horses without first making a concrete diagnosis - which usually requires modern technology.
It's my opinion that a holistic 'vet' who treats a horse without first properly finding out what's wrong is failing in their treatment plan.

Glad you're getting him a diagnosis now.
 
Was he treated with steroids over this period? One of the side effects of Dexadreson is an inability to deal with stressful situations - just a thought.
 
Not heard anything like that before. Have you ruled out ulcers - grumpyness, etc. My reaction would be - turn him out for a month on grass. There is also a mix that is made by Global Herbs which is supposed to be good in cases where there has been illness and stress. You buy a pot and they have the whole course but they don't have to be on it for ever.

Will be interesting to see what the horsepital says.
 
Patterdale said:
I am not against holistic or alternative therapies in the slightest.
What I AM against is holistic therapists just throwing supplements and herbs at horses without first making a concrete diagnosis - which usually requires modern technology.
It's my opinion that a holistic 'vet' who treats a horse without first properly finding out what's wrong is failing in their treatment plan.

Glad you're getting him a diagnosis now.
Click to expand...

Yes, this! I'm not one who thinks they are all charlatans but you need a diagnosis
 
Queenbee said:
Oh well, in that case I take it back I'm so sorry, yes four years is a very acceptable time frame to get a vet out :/

Back to your main point in question I suspect what you may be trying to do is find one diagnosis that fits all symptoms, this is possibly where the problem lies as the horse may have more than one condition that's causing the symptoms. Or the excessive pooing could be pain related (just a thought) in addition, get yourself looked at, crookedness isn't always down to the horse, often it is caused by the rider, the horse then builds up unevenly. But your best bet is to start with that referral and a full top to toe evaluation, better late than never I suppose
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should have read the whole post they stated the holistic practitioner is a fully qualified vet and they have also had another vet out as well. Gee some people love jumping on others when they are down.

Fingers crossed OP you can resolved it.
 
Queenbee said:
Oh well, in that case I take it back I'm so sorry, yes four years is a very acceptable time frame to get a vet out :/
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Goodness yes, I do wish I had your apparent ability to foresee the future. I should definitely have called a vet four years ago. That would have been one year and nine months BEFORE his fracture (which incidentally was treated by the orthopaedic specialist at one of the largest equine veterinary hospitals in the UK). It would have been over two and a half years before it become clear that something wasn't quite right - and at the time that something was so subtle that everyone assumed it was behavioural since a long period of box rest can cause such problems, and it would have been three years and six months before he became crooked (and he saw a vet within a relatively short time of that - when plenty of people were still telling me it was behavioural) So yes, it would have been great to be able to see into the future.

Thank you for your replies everyone else. Every thought is really appreciated and it gives me more to research before his hospital appointment and more to discuss with the vets there.
 
Where are the lumps? I can't see your pics. I have a mare at the moment who has lumps on the side of her abdomen which have been there six weeks, she was scoped with ulcers almost two weeks ago but don't know if the lumps are linked.
 
I wonder if the hay at this yard is made from their own grass, in which case I would buy in some from a distance.
Is there any reason to think that there could be heavy metals in the soil, eg has mining been carried out at some time in the past, are there any industrial, agricultural pollutants in water courses. There are also some indicator plants which grow in contaminated areas.
Does he only drink out of water troughs, am thinking hemlock in water courses [looks a bit like cow parsley, but has tuberous roots]
There is a long list of poisonous plants

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_plants_poisonous_to_equines

I would also go and ask some farmers next door if they have ever had any metabolic disorders in their animals.
I assume there is no lead paint [pre 1960's]
He has plenty of condition, I would think about a tiny feed designed for horses with a metabolic disorder, rather than standard pony nuts, else feed only hay from somewhere else for two weeks, I don't know if you can find only organic feeds, but it is worth a try.
I am thinking about liver disease [stiffness], presumably the blood tests will show this up, but also your vets must have considered this.
The feet are an indicator of health, anything unusual.
I tend to go with ulcers in hind gut, but I don't have any experience of it.
 
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It sounds like ulcers, and even if scoping comes back clear it's probably worth trying him on a course of gastroguard as scoping doesn't reach the hind gut. The right side crookedness would tie in with that too as the cecum lies to the right. As others have said, get saddle looked at, get yourself looked at, get a physio to look at horse - muscles pull bones out of place, chiropractors can't do much for that
 
Silverfire said:
Where are the lumps? I can't see your pics. I have a mare at the moment who has lumps on the side of her abdomen which have been there six weeks, she was scoped with ulcers almost two weeks ago but don't know if the lumps are linked.
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Have just replied to your PM. I'd hoped people could see the pics as I shared them to everyone with the link. The lumps are one of the most puzzling things as I've never seen anything like them before. They are on his flanks, about a hands width further forward than the point of hip and a little lower.

SOme interesting thoughts about toxicity there and plenty to look into thanks MrsD123
 
maccachic said:
Perhaps you should have read the whole post they stated the holistic practitioner is a fully qualified vet and they have also had another vet out as well. Gee some people love jumping on others when they are down.

Fingers crossed OP you can resolved it.
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They stated they have had a qualified holistic vet out up until today and almost all treatments described are holistic, only today has a vet come out who is not holistic and seems to be considering other avenues of diagnosis and treatment. What sort of qualified vet would treat a horse holistically for four years without a referral for an ongoing un diagnosed issue???

I certainly do not need to read it again.
 
My sympathies Spacehopper. It seems that you care a great deal about your horse - and I hope the horspital can help. But sadly there are many problems that dont seem to get a solid diagnosis. I think MrsD's comments are very interesting - was going to ask about allergies but actually toxicity seems perhaps more appropriate to the range of symptoms. Could he have licked or chewed something unsuitable in his stable when on box rest??

Poor boy - I do hope you find some resolution and can fix him. x
 
Ulcers? Would be my first thought. Everything points to that.

My horse was crooked and grumpy (quite a sudden onset thing) and has had his hocks medicated and started a gastro supplement and is back to his old self. Have you tried him on bute to see if his way of going changes?

I had a horse who had a fractured leg from a kick, and had to be on three months box rest, and this was really detrimental as it caused the (previously undiagnosed) spavins in his hocks to degenerate and he also started slipping his stifle. I did try to rehab him and bring him back into work a few times but he just never came right, and in the end I buted him up to the eyeballs and retired him in a massive field with his mates. He was never grumpy though, and to be honest he was very forward and happy in himself, but he did have the weirdest movement ever. Vet was convinced it was mechanical, but I felt awful riding a lame horse (it was even weirder than lame, it was basically lateral) and he was uninsured so investigative procedures were out of the question really. Sorry, that's a bit of a worst-case-scenario for you there :p

Also the horse next to me on the yard often gets a really swollen sheath and has recently been diagnosed with cushings, I don't know if this is something you've looked into?
 
Maybe the lumps are as a result of allergies to a holistic treatment given. One of the problems with holistic 'medicines' is they haven't been fully tested and documented as to the side effects. Just because it is natural doesn't mean it is harmless. Glad you are getting him treated conventionally now, though why it has taken so long baffles me...

I am another that suspects ulcers too. Scope and a course of gastroguard, plus lots of Dr Grass and he could come good in no time. Poor sausage :(
 
Ok so, two and a half years from four years, still leaves 1 and a half years... Not ideal in my opinion. Although I did make some suggestions in one of my posts which you seem to have overlooked. It doesn't escape the fact that I simply don't think you have acted as well as you should and sought the appropriate help. I will give you that hindsight is a wonderful thing, but four years, even 18 months, is far too long. I keep everything crossed that your better late than never referral resolves things
 
I know people have commented on you not getting a vet out, but with my horse, it took me a good six months after I first thought 'hmm, doesn't feel right' - I assumed it was my dire riding, everyone around me seemed convinced it was behavioural, and it was so mild and irregular that it's only looking back that I realise all of the signs were related, and that it had been going on much longer than the obvious symptoms. So don't feel bad - how many thousands of horses are crooked and don't have a vet out about it? Most owners don't even seem to notice! And would you call your vet for hives? I know I wouldn't.
 
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