Has anyone looked into balancer formulations and cost ratios recently?

[Jambarissa]

I feel a spreadsheet coming on to rate common balancers.

I do prefer a forage balancer and have in the past had bespoke products made to balance my hay. But they're expensive.

I'm very aware that without regular blood tests I've no idea whether it's needed but I'd rather have a guess and meet any deficiencies.

I'm currently feeding forage plus summer version. Happy with it but given I'm feeding it as an insurance maybe something cheaper and more palatable (tiny chaff feed) would be better.

I do feed with CPL and lami in mind so some ingredients I dont like, although I recognise the volumes are very small so not too worried about sugar/alfalfa etc so long as the minerals are compatible.

Anyway, has anyone done this recently and can save me some time? If not and you'd like to see certain ones compared feel free to suggest and I'll do what I can.

 

[criso]

I did one long time ago but won't be valid now. However the Progessive Earth and Forageplus worked out quite similar once you adjusted for amount of active ingredient per scoop. Neither was it cheaper to buy individual minerals and make your own if you replicated theirs unless you can go direct to suppliers and buy and store 25kg sacks of each.

A couple of cost cutting options.

Progressive Earth do a basic one called pro mineral which uses oxides/sulphates instead of bioplex versions of minerals.

You can also buy these straight from Equimins, you have to email and ask.

Can you do a forage analysis? This would mean initial outlay but ensure you only feed what is essential. . However it may not save you money. You could end up having to feed more of an expensive mineral if your forage is very unbalanced instead of less.

 

[smolmaus]

A friend and I tried to do this earlier in the year and nearly drove ourselves to madness. Conclusion was its impossible with a "laymans" knowledge of nutrition + google and pointless without a forage analysis to base it on. I love a spreadsheet myself but there were just too many variables for my poor engineering brain.

Friend landed on Science Supplements Leisure mix (~£27/month) and I went with Forageplus summer hoof and skin (~£30/month). Both of us are happier for not obsessing about it anymore.

 

[criso]

What makes it difficult is some suppliers (forageplus, progressive earth, equinatural, science supplements) are very good at providing clear info on their website. E.g. A scoop weighs x mg and will provide this many grams of zinc, magnesium, copper etc. It would be relatively straightforward to do a comparison of those 4 though some have multiple products.


Others just give percentages or lists of minerals so not easy to compare.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Happy to help create a up to date spreadsheet!

I did compare a few recently, and stuck with Equimins (£30 month) but am supplementing natural vit E separately.

FP and PE seemed more expensive with a lot less Zinc and copper.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Equimins put mg per kg, but I did work out the levels recently per 60g. Happy to send it on if it helps.

 

[Lady Jane]

I did investigations/spreadsheets not so long ago. I use Science Supplements Well horse Leisure - about £27/28 per month. The cheaper ones may save me £5/month but ingredients weren't so good. The cost per month was fag packet not spreadsheet as they all quote the daily rate for a 500kg horse. If only there was a simple way of working out if our horses actually needed anything!

 

[criso]

Equimins put mg per kg, but I did work out the levels recently per 60g. Happy to send it on if it helps.

Equimins quote mg per kg for example copper sulphate and chelate, is that the amount of compound or the amount of elemental copper available.

Bioplex copper has about 12% elemental copper available, the sulphate more.

FP and PE are quoting elemental per scoop

 

[criso]

Btw quick look suggests science supplements and equinatural use oxides and sulphates, forageplus uses bioplex, equimins has a . mixture of both and progressive earth has separate products.

Not saying one version is better but a big difference in price in raw ingredients

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Equimins quote mg per kg for example copper sulphate and chelate, is that the amount of compound or the amount of elemental copper available.

Bioplex copper has about 12% elemental copper available, the sulphate more.

FP and PE are quoting elemental per scoop

I’ve emailed and asked

 

[Jambarissa]

Btw quick look suggests science supplements and equinatural use oxides and sulphates, forageplus uses bioplex, equimins has a . mixture of both and progressive earth has separate products.

Not saying one version is better but a big difference in price in raw ingredients

I've been going down a rabbit hole with this.

I believed chelated and bioplex should make it more bio available but then have seem material saying it really doesn't. The straight minerals should be significantly cheaper.

I really prefer getting balance through real food. If I could do a hay analysis and plug gaps using grasses, herbs, roots etc I would much rather do so. But you'd have to analyse the herbs etc you feed too, sounds unlikely to be able to do it well but if only short on a few things might be possible to do it approximately.

 

[ApolloStorm]

I also recently have been down this rabbit hole and landed on the science supplements Wellhorse performance.
Bar missing amino acids it is spot on for NRC amounts. And is significantly cheaper than FP or PE (with the added bonus my horse will actually eat it unlike the progressive earth or equimins!) I already supplement micronised linseed so amino acids didn’t concern me particularly!
As has been said it was quite a cursory look with my limited knowledge/ability as it’s not always nice and clear or even listed how much of each supplements contain. The way I see it is if you know you have a good product why wouldn’t you list it in an easy to read and interpret format. I also have learnt that the big companies pelleted balancers aren’t worth anything!

 

[criso]

I’ve emailed and asked

The numbers suggest it's compound not available.

If it was just the bioplex copper, 5000 mg p kg fed at 60g = 300mg per serving.

The others mentioned have 400mg per serving as a max so similar. If it was the chelate, then at 12% it would be 36mg, too low.

However there is also 18,000 mg of copper sulphate which would be 1080mg in a 60g serving, far too high.

Depending on the concentration, what that supplies added to the 36mg from the chelate may well also be 400mg

Progressive earth sell copper sulphate as a straight but can't see percentage but it may be on the secret equimins straights price list.

 

[criso]

I believed chelated and bioplex should make it more bio available but then have seem material saying it really doesn't. The straight minerals should be significantly cheaper

Bioplex may be better absorbed than oxides/sulphates however I don't think there are any actual studies proving one way or the other.

Technically there is more copper and zinc in the sulphates and oxides by percentage so you feed less.

This can mean they are easier to get into a fussy horse.

 

[criso]

I really prefer getting balance through real food. If I could do a hay analysis and plug gaps using grasses, herbs, roots etc I would much rather do so. But you'd have to analyse the herbs etc you feed too, sounds unlikely to be able to do it well but if only short on a few things might be possible to do it approximately

Not sure that would work as the herbs, grasses and roots assuming they are local could be also be lacking and you'd have to feed a lot.

Example I had a forage analysis done and one of the things that was lacking was phosphorus. However I feed Copra which is high in phosphorus. Instructions were if feeding 1kg don't supplement phosphorus, 500g give half dose etc. So I can supplement through a feed source but 1 kg is a lot to feed a good doer.

 

[criso]

I made start on a spreadsheet - no equimins till I have clear amounts in daily serving

I've only added minerals as a starting point not other things they contain so not a complete comparison yet but just sharing first findings as a screenshot. Plus there are so many different products that none are identical, I could probably spend a day just on the progressive earth variations. I'm going to work on adding everything they contain but will take a few days.

The difference between the pro mineral and pro balance basic is that the balance has vit e, lysine and methionine but this effectively doubles the price.

Science supplements may look low on minerals but it has a lot of other things added that some of these don't.

All feeding rates are for a 500g horse and where it says feed 1 - 1.5 scoops, I've gone for the higher level. Forageplus recommend higher rates but you could feed at the same rates as PE Pro Balance plus and the price difference would even out.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

That’s really good, thanks @criso

I had a look at the PE Youngstock balancer today and that looks good, considering that for next time. Could you possibly add that to the chart please?

Thank you

 

[criso]

That’s really good, thankseve @criso

I had a look at the PE Youngstock balancer today and that looks good, considering that for next time. Could you possibly add that to the chart please?

Thank you

Will do but from what I've seen so far PE has the same levels of minerals in all their products, it's the added extras that change.

 

[bouncing_ball]

Science supplements may look low on minerals but it has a lot of other things added that some of these don't.

Personal opinion, if you arent feeding enough zinc and copper, 900mg and 400mg would seem a fair base line, anything as extras in supplement else is pointless (unless you know your forage is providing sufficient from analysis). Making feeding science supplements or anything with lower zinc and copper pretty pointless unless you increase the amount fed or separately top up with zinc and copper.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

The numbers suggest it's compound not available.

If it was just the bioplex copper, 5000 mg p kg fed at 60g = 300mg per serving.

The others mentioned have 400mg per serving as a max so similar. If it was the chelate, then at 12% it would be 36mg, too low.

However there is also 18,000 mg of copper sulphate which would be 1080mg in a 60g serving, far too high.

Depending on the concentration, what that supplies added to the 36mg from the chelate may well also be 400mg

Progressive earth sell copper sulphate as a straight but can't see percentage but it may be on the secret equimins straights price list.

This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing. So it seems it’s potentially too low in either.. still waiting a response.

 

[criso]

This is really interesting. Thanks for sharing. So it seems it’s potentially too low in either.. still waiting a response.

Not necessarily. I found something that suggests Copper Sulphate is 25% available copper.

That would put 270mg from the sulphate and 36mg from the bioplex which puts them at the same levels as PE

 

[ApolloStorm]

Unless you’re comparing to known required levels doesn’t matter how “much” of something is contained in a supplement, more does not always equal better. FYI National Research Council requirements for Copper and Zinc is 100mg and 400mg respectively for a 500kg horse, making science supplements spot on given it’s listed elementally.

The link for anyone who hasn’t seen it

Nutrient Requirements of Horses - Working Doc

 

[criso]

Or you could buy one of the others and feed at a lower rate.

That link didn't work but what I've seen is 100mg copper as an absolute minimum, more to balance UK forage deficiency and 2500mg is the point at which it is dangerous

 

[bouncing_ball]

Unless you’re comparing to known required levels doesn’t matter how “much” of something is contained in a supplement, more does not always equal better. FYI National Research Council requirements for Copper and Zinc is 100mg and 400mg respectively for a 500kg horse, making science supplements spot on given it’s listed elementally.

The link for anyone who hasn’t seen it

Nutrient Requirements of Horses - Working Doc

I think there are a number of reasons why forage based balancer companies recommend more copper and zinc. They are basing their formulae on what is in the typical UK forage not assuming horse gets nothing in forage which is the basis for the NRC figures.

Some things common in UK grass and hay block the body from using the copper and zinc that is in their diet, I think it is iron and manganese that do this, which are common in grass / hay / haylage in UK. So to get the right amount of copper and zinc to be utilised by the body you need to feed a bit more, whilst staying well under toxic levels.

Forage plus, progressive earth etc all list elementally too.

There are two schools of supplementing vitamins and minerals.

1) assume the horse gets nothing useful in hay / haylage / grass / bucket feed, and put amounts to the NRC standard in the supplement.

2) assume the horse is getting UK typical hay / haylage / grass etc and take into account the likely excesses / inhibitors / and deficiencies in this forage, and provide amounts to balance to this (getting back to NRC amounts available in body, when take forage into account).

They are different approaches, with different ideals.

Personal opinion, I follow option 2, and IMO if you arent feeding enough zinc and copper, 900mg and 400mg would seem a fair base line, anything as extras in supplement else is pointless (unless you know your forage is providing sufficient from analysis). Making feeding science supplements or anything with lower zinc and copper pretty pointless IMO unless you increase the amount fed or separately top up with zinc and copper.

 

[criso]

So I've got a first draft of an excel spreadsheet which I can share.

In theory anyone can view from this link

supplement comparison 2023.xlsx

1drv.ms

For pricing I have just used the first size listed so this would change if you buy larger sizes plus different companies have different delivery charges which will impact price.

I have put a few of the progressive earth options however they have so many!

@Hormonal Filly I've added in the youngstock balancer. The feeding rate is for a 500kg horse so a youngster if smaller would not need that much

 

[Cragrat]

Here's a start I made to look at what I feed, ( and wish I hadn't!)

	weight	price pence	price/gram	feed rate g/day	price/day pence	per week
Pro Trace	1000	3499	3.499	5.5	19.2445	£1.35
Biotin	1000	2349	2.349	4	9.396	£0.66
MSM	1000	2549	2.549	20	50.98	£3.57
Glucosamine	500	1999	3.998	10	39.98	£2.80
Vit E (nat)	500	3199	6.398	6.5	41.587	£2.91
					161.1875	£11.28
pro vet	3180	5899	1.855031447	150	278.254717	£19.48
pro plat	4200	5799	1.380714286	150	207.1071429	£14.50
pro vet	pro plat			pro 3 trace
10g Vegetarian Glucosamine	3 grams Threonine			300mg Copper (Copper (II) chelate of glycine hydrate 3b413)
10g MSM	20 grams Lysine			900mg of Zinc (Zinc chelate of glycine hydrate 3b607)
10g Boswellia	300 mg Copper (bioplex)			1mg Selenium (3.b.8.10-organic selenium)
300mg Copper	900 mg Zinc (bioplex)
900mg Zinc	10 grams Magnesium
1.5 mg Selenium	7.5grams Calcium
10g Lysine	5 grams Phosphorous
5g Methionine	1.5 mg Selenium (yeast)
2g Threonine	2 mg Iodine
8,000 iu Plant-based Vit A	2 grams Yea sacc TS (equivalent to 20g Yea sacc 1026)
2000mg Natural Vitamin E	10 grams Bio-Mos®
Niacin (B3) 100mg	4000 iu Vitamin E
Riboflavin (B2) 30mg	5000 mg Methionine
Folic Acid (B9) 20 mg	2 grams Vitamin C
Pantothenic acid (B5) 130 mg	500 mg Thiamine
Vitamin B12 300mcg	50 mg Riboflavin
Pyridoxine (B6) 100 mg	500 mg Niacin
Biotin (B7) 20mg	30 mg Biotin
Thiamine (B1) 300mg	25 mg Folic acid
Iodine 2mg	1000 mcg Vitamin B12
Magnesium 3g	200 mg Pyridoxine
Phosphorus 2 g	250 mg Pantothenic acid
Calcium 5 g	10 grams MSM
Vistacel 2g	5 grams Glucosamine
Vitamin C 4.5g
Milk thistle seed extract 100mg

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Btw quick look suggests science supplements and equinatural use oxides and sulphates, forageplus uses bioplex, equimins has a . mixture of both and progressive earth has separate products.

SS balancers have a lot less copper and zinc than the PE and FP.

I’ve emailed Equimins 4 times now to ask about the copper/zinc but they don’t bother to reply.. nearly out of the powder so not sure what else to buy. Although she looks good on it I’m note supplementing vitamin E and selenium, Equimins only contains 0.3mg per 60g serving when most UK soils are deficient!

FP performance balancer looks good, but it works out £66 a month, £700 a year

 

[Hormonal Filly]

@criso Equimins have got back to me. Does that clarify the copper and zinc? If I have time I’ll try saving your spreadsheet and adding it

 

[criso]

@criso Equimins have got back to me. Does that clarify the copper and zinc? If I have time I’ll try saving your spreadsheet and adding it

View attachment 127289

I can look at it too after the weekend.

Need to know the available % of all these firms. They've listed 25% for copper sulphate so you know of the 17.42 per kg, a quarter is actual copper.

The others I'll have to look up.

Did they only send copper and zinc? For a true comparison need all the ingredients.