HAS ANYONE WATCHED A CLINTON ANDERSON PROGRAM ?

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rach.m

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DO YOU THINK IT IS FAIR TO " KARATE CHOP " A HORSE OR " SMACK IN THE JAW " OR WAVE A STICK IN A HORSES FACE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF SO CALLED TRAINING BEFORE AND WOULD NEVER EVER USE IT, I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS.
 
I think if you do a seach Rach you will see there was a very recent thread about him. That might be why you aren't getting a lot of response.
 
I believe his tactics are very similar to Parelli's. Bully boy horse training with the aim of total suppression of natural instincts/personality.

Learned Helplessness is the end goal of this type of regime :(
 
rach.m said:
DO YOU THINK IT IS FAIR TO " KARATE CHOP " A HORSE OR " SMACK IN THE JAW " OR WAVE A STICK IN A HORSES FACE, I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF SO CALLED TRAINING BEFORE AND WOULD NEVER EVER USE IT, I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO HEAR YOUR VIEWS.
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I watched him the other evening - rubbish!

btw: When you type in capitals you are SHOUTING at us!
 
I have a man coming out for a second time who uses methods based on Clintons. He is amazing and has totally helped me turn my horses attitude around - he got a bit above himself (some may call it character but I wasnt going to tolerate it) I really rate him - might not be fluffy fluffy stroking and patting but it has worked for me.
 
I love Clinton Anderson, he doesn't harm the horses, does not tolerant any space invasion and the horses respect him! Who wants a horse cuddling you and being a big soft cuddly bear! Not me, they are big dangerous animals. I think he rocks!

PS i have never seen him hit a horse?? and often watch his programs?? If the horse rushes at him he may well wave something, or shake the leadrope, he works on keeping the horses feet moving, he isnt actually that different from Monty... just a bit noisier!
 
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Devonshire dumpling said:
I love Clinton Anderson, he doesn't harm the horses, does not tolerant any space invasion and the horses respect him! Who wants a horse cuddling you and being a big soft cuddly bear! Not me, they are big dangerous animals. I think he rocks!

PS i have never seen him hit a horse?? and often watch his programs?? If the horse rushes at him he may well wave something, or shake the leadrope, he works on keeping the horses feet moving, he isnt actually that different from Monty... just a bit noisier!
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I don't know if you watched last night but I had to rewind as he said ' It does not matter how hard you wack them as long as you can rub it away after'.
He then hit it hard on the quarters, the horse was then upset for the rest of the time. I think he only did to make a point the horse was trying hard up until that point then it just got upset and he pushed on as if the horse was a car not a horse with feelings. The result he was getting were stressed and the horse was not happy.
 
better half said:
I don't know if you watched last night but I had to rewind as he said ' It does not matter how hard you wack them as long as you can rub it away after'.
He then hit it hard on the quarters, the horse was then upset for the rest of the time. I think he only did to make a point the horse was trying hard up until that point then it just got upset and he pushed on as if the horse was a car not a horse with feelings. The result he was getting were stressed and the horse was not happy.
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No i didn't watch it last night! x
 
Pat Parelli used to hit horses a lot (as anyone who has watched his "Trailer Loading Your Horses Naturally" tape can confirm).
 
he may get the desired response from his horses but IMO he pushes them too far for too long. He makes them repeat the excercise over and over again untill they give up through mental exhaustion. He uses bullying tactics and I wouldn't let him near one of my horses!
 
I SO NEW THE PROPER HORSE MEN AND WOMEN WOULD HAVE THE SAME VIEWS , THANKS EVERYONE !, I DID TRY ADDING A COMMENT ON HIS WEB SITE BUT HAVE NOT HAD IT PUBLISHED OR HAD A REPLY ! I WONDER WHY !!! THOSE POOR POOR HORSES, THEY ARE NOT MACHINES, I WOULD LIKE TO DO THE SAME TO HIM.
 
Have to be honest and say that I watch all these Monty Roberts, Kelly Marks, Clinton Anderson and the rest with an open mind and pick up bits and pieces from them but mostly at the more basic levels. I dont feel the need to have your horses behaving like trained dogs but I like manners and obedience and if I can pick up anything that helps good and if not no harm done. I even pick up things from reading the threads on certain forums! Anything that I dont like or agree with I just ignore :D.
 
thanks for you views, but i just felt i could not ignore this, i feel very strongly that these horses were being treated un fairly, yes i have watched other peoples clinics and monty has taught me a lot especially with loading. the previous post was only referring to clinton anderson. regards:)
 
If someone was caught hitting their dog like CA did loading a horse on H&C they would call the RSPCA, and someone said he was a respected clinition in the USA he may get the result but there is a better way to get there. It is a shame that he gets air time along with Monty and his pressure halters which are also causing the horse world different problems. I think these American trainers should learn a bit more humility and stop using horses to make them ‘look good’. Upsetting a horse with a pressure halter or increasing pressure and a wack then showing how to settle them again is not necessary but it sell TV. I think as an English channel H&C should be more responsible about there programmes.
 
team barney said:
I believe his tactics are very similar to Parelli's. Bully boy horse training with the aim of total suppression of natural instincts/personality.

Learned Helplessness is the end goal of this type of regime :(
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There doesn't ever seem to be a thread where Team Barmey doesn't try to get a dig in about Parelli.

Even when reading a thread about Clinton Anderson, your not safe.

'Bully boy tactics with the aim of total suppression of natural instincts/personality.' Absolute rubbish, if this is meant to refer to Parelli.

'Learned Helplessness' where did you dig that up from, some cruel b*****d, electrocuting paralized dogs in the 1960's. This is nothing to do with Parelli, the exact opposite in fact. These malicious posts are also wicked and unbalanced.

This is what Parelli is about,

http://youtu.be/oAfIT_RYIoY

and this,

http://youtu.be/Ow2yDdRK_Zc
 
Pale Rider said:
There doesn't ever seem to be a thread where Team Barmey doesn't try to get a dig in about Parelli.

Even when reading a thread about Clinton Anderson, your not safe.

'Bully boy tactics with the aim of total suppression of natural instincts/personality.' Absolute rubbish, if this is meant to refer to Parelli.

'Learned Helplessness' where did you dig that up from, some cruel b*****d, electrocuting paralized dogs in the 1960's. This is nothing to do with Parelli, the exact opposite in fact. These malicious posts are also wicked and unbalanced.

This is what Parelli is about,

http://youtu.be/oAfIT_RYIoY

and this,

http://youtu.be/Ow2yDdRK_Zc
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Popcorn and Icecream anybody?
 
Thanks Palerider - I am also tired of the bias, unbalanced posts, ill informed posts.

If a person chooses not to engage in NH that is their decision, and that is okay, but why the comments when others choose to take this path.

It is bullying at the very least, what motivates bullies? These are mostly adults posting and their behaviour is like school kids.
 
Actually, I like Agnes's work (second link above) more than most advance Parelli students I've seen. I think she's better than Pat. She's seems to have managed to use the system without pissing her horse off, as can happen. You see ears flicking back and forward on her videos, rather as horses do playing with each other, not the ears back and tail swishing that some demonstrate. Thinking about it, I like her work better than Honza Blaha, Ingela from Kingdom Horse and some other prominent Parelli people. She reminds me of a friend I had in the old Parelli days who had never been to a clinic but learnt completely from the videos, and who had put her own gentle slant on the training.
Agnes is reminiscent of Phillip Nye, who didn't use the Parelli method slavishly but brought in huge chunks of his previous experience and horse sense. His horses always stood out for looking engaged and happy as well.
 
Acknowledging similarities between two systems based on dominance is not unbalanced.

I will be the first to admit I don't agree with 90% of the "traditional horse world" but at least it doesn't market it's self as the kindest most compassionate horsemanship available to you.

Learned Helplessness is an entirely valid argument you see it in both Traditional and Natural Horsemanship. It is especially prevalent in Parelli style training, I honestly don't think that system can be beaten in producing a certain kind of horse. You see it in all of their promotional videos, they lights are on but no one is home.

I am not asking for you to agree with me I only wish to state my opinion, you don't have to read it or acknowledge it, but freedom of speech is a basic human right. Also I don't see how a pro Parelli comment can be perceived as any less "unbalanced" than an anti Parelli comment.

As for the bullying, since when has stating an opinion been tantamount to bullying?

And I will say it agin, I interact with my horses naturally, nearly everyone I know would class me as a natural horseman. I don't use a big stick to achieve this or a knotted halter or heavy buckled long ropes. I don't believe dominance is the way forward to a productive and genuinely natural relationship with your horse. I suppose you could say I want a partner not an employee in my horse.
 
I hope people who 'know' me are sitting down ...

I liked some of the stuff in the video of Agnes!!!!!!

(not all of it - can't be doing with the sitting down/lying down stuff) - but the ridden and some of the liberty the horse did indeed look relatively relaxed.

She's using treats though, you can see her reaching for them on three occasions ... which is fine with me ... but I thought was not part of the Parelli philosophy?

did not like the other video - horse looks as pee'd off and micromanaged as all the other parelli stuff I have seen.
 
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Tess...
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I can't think of any video of what I'm describing, but I'll ask around. I can't set anything up for you because my lot don't leave voluntarily in the pen anymore. I do a little liberty work sometimes, but it's not the same because it builds on established cues that ask for move away etc.
I first watched Phil Rodey at work this way on one of my trips to Aus, and it was fascinating. All you want to do is to establish that the horse would realise that it's good to be with you. So if you stand in the pen, walk around, and they stay with you, get some fuss, then really there would be nothing else to do. Most horses lose interest a bit at first, or maybe need to leave because they are worried, in which case he just moved in a smaller circle keeping his position just back from their shoulder. If they were keeping going and focussed outside, then he just tapped his hand on his leg or jacket, which wasn't so much to keep them moving but to get their attention. Then, at the first sign of wanting to come in (you know, a soften of the neck inwards, a tip of the head, an ear...) he dropped back, and dropped his inside shoulder as he sort of curved round towards their hindquarters. What happens depends on what the horse does, if it stops you stop, if it comes round you step back, if it decides to keep going you go back to the original position. The difference is that the emphasis is on the horse being with you, without sending it away and asking it to "beg".
I've seen lots of versions of round penning a new horse, and some trainers will encourage the horse forward a bit more. I'm not too bothered about that as long as the horse still seems in control of it's senses and isn't driven into a panic. What crosses the line for me is seeing a horse with wild eyes, stumbling, losing footing, maybe bucking frantically with the saddle and in danger of hurting itself because it's lost the capacity to think.
What about the pens used? I feel they can make a difference as well. Pens with post and rail, or maybe posts with soft bungee fencing don't seem too claustrophobic. I had to work with a horse in a Monty-style round pen once (not round pen work, just that an arena wasn't available) and it felt very enclosed. The horse seemed to think so too and sort of sucked in beside me as we stood in the middle gazing around.
Treats are allowed in Parelli, but when I was a student he said not at the lower levels because the students would get the timing wrong.
 
Could you explain the difference please?

Bribe:

1. money or any other valuable consideration given or promised with a view to corrupting the behavior of a person, especially in that person's performance as an athlete, public official, etc.: The motorist offered the arresting officer a bribe to let him go.
2. anything given or serving to persuade or induce: The children were given candy as a bribe to be good.
verb (used with object)
3. to give or promise a bribe to: They bribed the reporter to forget about what he had seen.
4. to influence or corrupt by a bribe: The judge was too honest to be bribed.

Well, obviously horses wouldn't understand 1,3 and 4. So it must be 2 - anything given or serving to persuade or induce. Which sounds rather similar to...

Incentive:

1. something that incites or tends to incite to action or greater effort, as a reward offered for increased productivity.
–adjective
2. inciting, as to action; stimulating; provocative
 
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As an example, if you ask your horse to travel to a certain point, or perform a certain yield or move you may treat them as a reward after they have done this and this then gives them incentive to try again for you next time you ask - you do not treat EVERY time though, just enough to add incentive.

If you show the horse the treat and use it as a bribe to get the horse to do something you will just end up turning your horse into a treat monster that is just doing things just for treats and essentially doing tricks instead of actually communicating with you.

Treats should be used very carefully, with some horses for example un motivated horses they can be a very powerful tool - for other horses, horses with lack of respect for personal space for example they can be dangerous!

This is loosely what Parelli teach but obviously in my own words!
 
Hi tinypony, thanks, I edited that bit out as I then couldn't remember if it was on this thread or another thread that you had mentioned different style of roundpen work, and I was going to check ... but thanks for your response now.

it does sound a lot more subtle and easier on the horses for sure, looking for much more subtle cues, as you say. Ben Hart does a nice little demo where he teaches the horse to stay close/follow for lip curling scratches - amazing how powerful that is, I watched him move a stallion away from a mare over a fence just on scratches and that gentle, inviting sort of body language. I've also seen people get horses to 'hook' on to them just by walking very purposefully and 'exploring' things in the school, horse's curiosity gets the better of them and they just have to come closer and follow round to see what it is you are looking at! Within ten mins they can be right on your shoulder looking at the stuff you are looking at. I've found that to combine that approach with a 'skeptical' horse alongside of scratches, and treats if appropriate, is really effective - I know it's not quite the same thing that you describe at all, but I guess just agreeing that there are many ways to get a horse to follow you without having to do 'join up'.

re the bribery vs reward - not sure what other definitions people will give but I would say bribery is standing at the top of the ramp shaking the feed bucket at the horse, and reward is producing and giving the treat to the horse after they have done the behaviour. When the horse can load it will just be giving a treat in the box sometimes, as opposed to showing the horse what he is going to get upfront!
 
In that case, if a horse is bothered about something, I don't have any ethical objection to using bribery. Whatever helps.
I've been using scratchies for many years, in liberty work and, well, just about everywhere. It's the best thing to use to teach a horse to come into the right position for mounting, it's a thank you for doing something good. It helps a young horse get used to being sat on, or an older horse to relax and stretch their neck. I don't use treats very often, but I do use them for feats of what I consider outstanding patience and bravery. Like having Sudocreme smothered all over your nose for example.
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I consider myself fortunate in a way in that I've experienced exactly what goes into training a Parelli-style liberty horse. It wasn't the best experience for me or the horse looking back on it, but it helped me to understand what I am and am not comfortable with and moved me on. Now I look for my horses to have the look about them that Agnes's horse does. I know that some would still consider me to be too coercive, and others consider that my horses would be better off never leaving the field, but as long as they look like that for most of the time I'm comfortable in my skin. I think the only time they look pissed off at me these days is when we hit an area of mutual misunderstanding. That can normally be remedied with a big step back and some apologetic scratches.
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