HAS ANYONE WATCHED A CLINTON ANDERSON PROGRAM ?

This is turning into an interesting discussion. :) I'm going to throw out some more questions, which I think are relevant.

Devonshire dumpling said:
the horses respect him!
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What is the difference between respect and compliance? Horses can behave as if they feel respect towards a person when they comply with instructions and boundaries. But how do we know it isn't just compliance? Isn't "respect" just a word that makes us feel good (obviously more so than "compliance")?

Pale Rider said:
'Learned Helplessness' where did you dig that up from, some cruel b*****d, electrocuting paralized dogs in the 1960's. This is nothing to do with Parelli, the exact opposite in fact. These malicious posts are also wicked and unbalanced.
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Learned helplessness is definitely a possible outcome in horse training, where pressure is applied in such a way (without appropriate release) that the horse eventually gives up trying to avoid it - i.e. he learns that whatever he does, the pressure doesn't go away. It could be argued that in the recently discussed video of the cob with the plastic bag tied to his tail the end result of "successful flooding" is a state of learned helplessness.

Tinypony said:
Treats are allowed in Parelli, but when I was a student he said not at the lower levels because the students would get the timing wrong.
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Hmm, interesting. Maybe I have asked this before but... Does anyone know when Parelli started using treats specifically for training? Is their proper use described in any instructional material and/or illustrated in any videos?
 
tess1 said:
re the bribery vs reward - not sure what other definitions people will give but I would say bribery is standing at the top of the ramp shaking the feed bucket at the horse, and reward is producing and giving the treat to the horse after they have done the behaviour. When the horse can load it will just be giving a treat in the box sometimes, as opposed to showing the horse what he is going to get upfront!
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Tes1 - you explained it in a better way than I did - thanks!
 
fburton said:
Hmm, interesting. Maybe I have asked this before but... Does anyone know when Parelli started using treats specifically for training? Is their proper use described in any instructional material and/or illustrated in any videos?
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There is quite a bit of information available if you are a member on using treats.
In the information about the LBI horsenality (as treats are most effective for horses in this frame of mind) and there is also a DVD I think it is called Cookie fest or something like that that demonstrates using treats as an incentive to get the horse moving forwards and get them interested in different objects. Linda Parelli often refers to using a nice patch of grass or clover as an incentive, in one DVD she uses it as an incentive for her horse to do the passage, then he gets to stop and graze as a reward.
I hope this helps answer your question?

One of the long standing instructors David Lichman is very big on treats and positive reinforcement when playing at liberty!
 
Just to clarify - I don't stand at the top of a ramp waving a bucket of food at my horse! I do give treats and scratches to reward 'tries' when the horse is learning something new, and to reward co-operation generally.

I stay clear of the word 'respect' as much as I can - I think it has the potential to be loaded with emotion and then things can get 'personal' between horse and owner - eg, "my horse doesn't respect me, he barges when I lead" as opposed to "I need to teach my horse to lead correctly without barging into me". I don't believe it's about respect, I believe it just shows up holes in the training that need to be addressed. Also, people tend not to look at WHY the horse barges - often it is because they are worried or scared of something. So addressing their concerns and teaching them to be brave means they are less likely to barge into you. I do think it is important to stay safe (obviously) but if something does go awry it cannot automatically be assumed to be down to respect or the lack of it. I also see videos where people say they are "helping the herd bound horse" for example, but in fact all they are doing is some pretty rigorous groundwork exercises with rapidly increasing negative reinforcement and positive punishment, which certainly teaches the horse to focus on the handler, but does not address any of his concerns about not having the other horse around - his confidence about being alone is not being built up per se ... he just has more important things to worry about now!

Agree with the flooding and learned helplessness comment - lots of flooding in horse training, and I think it is relatively easy to put a horse into a state of learned helplessness. Initially this may be temporary, but if it happens repeatedly then a shut-down horse is the outcome.

Did not know that +R was allowed in Parelli. Don't quite know how I feel about that to be honest. +R and low level pressure probably OK ... but +R and high level pressure - ie, going through the phases - may well put the horse in a psychologically difficult position :-( I would say it definitely won't have the same physiological benefits of +R and very light -R combined ...
 
I've only seen it used as in that video Tess, which was more like "that was nice, come here and have a treat". If that makes sense... I've seen Silke Valentin using treats a lot, and Honza Blaha uses them as well.
I'm sorry, I cringe every time someone uses a horsenality, but I'll get over it for our discussions honest.
 
wow, that's a crazy 'tache!!!!

can't figure out how to figure out which podcast talks about +R ... and have fairly limited broadband access as well ... but would be interested to know their take on it if you had a direct link or something :-)
 
diamondrockharvey said:
There is quite a bit of information available if you are a member on using treats.
In the information about the LBI horsenality (as treats are most effective for horses in this frame of mind) and there is also a DVD I think it is called Cookie fest or something like that that demonstrates using treats as an incentive to get the horse moving forwards and get them interested in different objects. Linda Parelli often refers to using a nice patch of grass or clover as an incentive, in one DVD she uses it as an incentive for her horse to do the passage, then he gets to stop and graze as a reward.
I hope this helps answer your question?
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Very helpful, thanks! Do you happen to know when treats were incorporated into the programme?
 
i wrote a thread about ben cox a while back?? i think thats his name anyway. i found it hard to watch. The horses complied through fear. CLinton anderson seems the same!
 
tess1 said:
wow, that's a crazy 'tache!!!!

can't figure out how to figure out which podcast talks about +R ... and have fairly limited broadband access as well ... but would be interested to know their take on it if you had a direct link or something :-)
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He is a little eccentric - he likes to get participants in his clinics to dance! hehe!

I am not sure this has the information you are looking for, but it gives you an idea of what DL is about:

http://www.savvyscotland.co.uk/previous_events.html

You might find this interesting also - David did a study with horses and his style of training and sea lions and their trainers:

http://slewths.mlml.calstate.edu/docs/SLEWTHScitations.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMFSOB4gYi8
 
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diamondrockharvey said:
You might find this interesting also - David did a study with horses and his style of training and sea lions and their trainers:

http://slewths.mlml.calstate.edu/docs/SLEWTHScitations.pdf
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Thank you for drawing my attention to this abstract (Lichman, D. and Hurley, J. (2005)) - I have not seen it before.

I agree with the statements "standard operant conditioning principles will always apply" and "knowledge of species-specific behaviors can both enhance and accelerate the training process". How could they not be true?

However, I would argue against basing a training system on "establishing dominance", as I believe the biological phenomenon of dominance is overplayed and/or misunderstood when it comes to horses. Too often it is mixed up with the human concept of leadership, which I believe has little meaning for horses. I guess that is my main gripe with "Natural Horsemanship" - a lot of the rough or bullying treatment appears to stem from the notion (mistaken imo) that you have to be considered as the dominant or alpha by a horse in order to be a "good leader" (though some of it simply stems from a simple lack of finesse or feel).
 
fburton said:
Thank you for drawing my attention to this abstract (Lichman, D. and Hurley, J. (2005)) - I have not seen it before.

I agree with the statements "standard operant conditioning principles will always apply" and "knowledge of species-specific behaviors can both enhance and accelerate the training process". How could they not be true?

However, I would argue against basing a training system on "establishing dominance", as I believe the biological phenomenon of dominance is overplayed and/or misunderstood when it comes to horses. Too often it is mixed up with the human concept of leadership, which I believe has little meaning for horses. I guess that is my main gripe with "Natural Horsemanship" - a lot of the rough or bullying treatment appears to stem from the notion (mistaken imo) that you have to be considered as the dominant or alpha by a horse in order to be a "good leader" (though some of it simply stems from a simple lack of finesse or feel).
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Have you ever read Mark Rashid - The art of passive leadership?
I believe horses DO look for a leader but the leader isn't necessarily the most dominant in the herd, just the one with the best ideas!

http://www.markrashid.com/passive_leadership.htm
 
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diamondrockharvey said:
Have you ever read Mark Rashid - The art of passive leadership?
I believe horses DO look for a leader but the leader isn't necessarily the most dominant in the herd, just the one with the best ideas!
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Or the most experience (and quiet confidence) - yes!!

I saw quite a bit of Mark Rashid about 10 years ago and really liked his quiet style. He was good to 'audit', even if it was a bit like watching paint drying sometimes! :) I'm not sure he would describe himself as a NH trainer, but if he is then that is one branch of NH that I am quite sanguine about. His "passive leadership" idea was a direct challenge to the prevailing dominance theories, and hence one I found most welcome.
 
I am not sure how Mark would describe his training style, however I am an avid follower, I have read all of his books but sadly haven't been able to audit one of his clinics yet.
He is coming to the UK again next May and I am hoping to get a participant place on a clinic with him.
I have been taking Aikido classes (martial art) too, Mark Rashid is a Sensei in Aikido. It's all to do with energy and circles and relates to horsemanship on many levels.

I still use Parelli concepts also, particularly the things they teach you to do with being safe but I adapt the ideas in a way I feel is suitable for me and my horse.

I think there is no right and wrong, this is just what suits me!
 
I was going to edit the above to add: Note that I wrote "the human concept of leadership" which incorporates all kinds of stuff about strong personality, fairness, integrity, assertiveness, obedience, respect, etc. - qualities or attitudes I would argue are specifically human and also somewhat alien to equines. However, other qualities are relevant - such as being unflappable, consistent, and therefore trustworthy.
 
fburton said:
Very helpful, thanks! Do you happen to know when treats were incorporated into the programme?
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I would think that the 'treats' thing came about as more was learned about the concept of 'horsenality'. Basically, different horsenalities are motivated by different stimulii.
 
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fburton said:
I was going to edit the above to add: Note that I wrote "the human concept of leadership" which incorporates all kinds of stuff about strong personality, fairness, integrity, assertiveness, obedience, respect, etc. - qualities or attitudes I would argue are specifically human and also somewhat alien to equines. However, other qualities are relevant - such as being unflappable, consistent, and therefore trustworthy.
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Agreed, horses do not understand a lot of human emotions, or should I say cannot differentiate between them.
It's unfair of people to assume that horses experience the same thoughts and actions as humans. And as we are the ones that CAN understand this we should be the ones willing to change and adapt as to communicate with them in a way that they can understand and are willing to understand!
 
Love love love Clinton Anderson, Chris Cox, Craig Cameron, Pat and Linda Parelli not forgetting Larry from Califonia, Monty Roberts etc etc. Long may they teach their methods. Long may they all shock and horrify you.
 
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