Has anyones horse got EPSM or PSSM?

[Tangaroo]

Does anyone have a horse with either of these conditions? Im not sure what the difference is between them. Im thinking of putting my boy on the PSSM diet and wanted other peoples experiences

 

[horselover522]

There are the same thing
EPSM = Equine Polysaccharide Storage Myopathy
PSSM = PolySaccharide Storage Myopathy

 

[BBP]

There are a fair few on here. Mine was suspected but on biopsy turned out to have RER (Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomyolysis) which is not controlled in the same way with diet. There is a brilliant Facebook page PSSM Forum which has loads of experienced people on it who can help you.

 

[TPO]

I think Ffwionie's does - apologies for useless attempt at spelling user name!

 

[FfionWinnie]

I think Ffwionie's does - apologies for useless attempt at spelling user name!

Lol yes I do. (Ffion Winnie)

It's been a hard year but my girl is pretty much completely normal and doing everything I want and desire now.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/202978353056065/

Get in this FB group for excellent advice. The diet won't hurt your horse if it doesn't have it as its basically just low sugar and starch. I find cool stance copra is the best thing for her, along with alfalfa pellets and various supplements for PSSM. However generic off the shelf supplements often contain hidden sugars so you need to watch out for that. Natural vit e oil from Equimins, I feed 6000iu per day which is 6 mls. Mag ox from pro earth. Plain table salt from tesco.

Here's a hair test for PSSM1. PSSM2 and other myopathies are diagnosed by muscle biopsy. I would personally do the hair test as a starting point. It's only £30.

 

[ycbm]

I've got with 1 and one with 2, I think. Diagnosis has been done on reaction to the diet. 1, quarter horse genes, did well on oil, vitamin e and selenium but I wanted to stop the oil for the summer. I changed to alcar, since when he's been doing even better and is now a 'normal' though very immature, horse.

2 has heavy horse genes. I only spotted recently that he was going hard in the bum when not ridden for a couple of days, so he has now been on alcar coming up for two weeks and is freeing up nicely, so that looks like a genuine type 2.

I can't believe I'm unlucky enough to have two out of two with it, but for me alcar is a wonderful success.

 

[Tangaroo]

Thanks. I have sent his hair off this morning for testing. Im a little confused about the supplements as not sure if you should feed straight vit e or vit e with selenium. The last thing i want to do is cause him more of a problem.

 

[ycbm]

With selenium unless you know for certain that your forage is already high in selenium.


I may have missed it but what breeding is your horse? The hair test will only show the type which is most common in quarter horses, so don't think he hasn't got it if it comes back negative, he may have type 2, the version that's common in horses with heavy horse blood.

 

[Tangaroo]

Thanks, I know our land is very low in selenium. He is pure Irish draught. I was thinking of trying the diet anyway as I don't want to put him through a muscle biopsy

 

[FfionWinnie]

With selenium unless you know for certain that your forage is already high in selenium.


I may have missed it but what breeding is your horse? The hair test will only show the type which is most common in quarter horses, so don't think he hasn't got it if it comes back negative, he may have type 2, the version that's common in horses with heavy horse blood.

Many cobs and heavies are type 1, including mine. I know of a cob with type 1 and 2 and another one with RER. Many QH and appys are type 2.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Thanks, I know our land is very low in selenium. He is pure Irish draught. I was thinking of trying the diet anyway as I don't want to put him through a muscle biopsy

It's definitely worth trying the diet first. It won't hurt him. If you are successful, then you don't really need the biopsy. If not then it's well worth doing as there are several muscle myopathies and some need different diets and supplements.

I don't feed selenium, but if your land is low I would speak to the vet about that.

Do not however use selenevite E as its full of sugar which you need to avoid.

 

[BBP]

Don't be too scared of the biopsy if the hair test is negative. I waited 6 months to do the biopsy as I didn't want to put him through it. But my horses behaviour got worse and worse with no obvious explanation. I went through chiros, craniosacral therapists, physics, blood tests, teeth checks, a head CT, all sorts of diet, and still couldn't get him happy. The biopsy showed me its RER not PSSM, which means high fat and alcar diet won't help him (I could have learned this months ago) and that he doesn't have an issue with building up too much polysaccharide within the muscle, instead his muscles are essentially too excitable through poor calcium regulation. Sorry, this post isn't about RER, all I meant is, the biopsy wasn't a big deal, I'd worked myself up but my horse never flinched, and it hasn't affected him since. For me, needing answers so badly, it was really helpful.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks. I have sent his hair off this morning for testing. Im a little confused about the supplements as not sure if you should feed straight vit e or vit e with selenium. The last thing i want to do is cause him more of a problem.

if you are feeding vit e for pssm you will probably be feeding around 10000iu. If you use a combined vit e with selenium product that will be a massive amount of selenium. I use a normal supplement with selenium. Then in addition I use a separate vit e oil to give him the high dose of vit E.

 

[ycbm]

Many cobs and heavies are type 1, including mine. I know of a cob with type 1 and 2 and another one with RER. Many QH and appys are type 2.

Interesting, thanks for that. I might have a type 2 QHX then. My draft boy is very different, but he must also be a very mild case as I've noticed nothing until this year.

 

[ycbm]

if you are feeding vit e for pssm you will probably be feeding around 10000iu. If you use a combined vit e with selenium product that will be a massive amount of selenium. I use a normal supplement with selenium. Then in addition I use a separate vit e oil to give him the high dose of vit E.

I'm giving a much higher dose, but ffion Winnie was saying 3,000iu, I think?

It's a very good point, Paddy555, OP, ignore my advice to feed with selenium until you know how much vitamin e you are going to feed. Selenium is very toxic and the rda is in only half a gram of selenium yeast a day, which is a tiny, tiny amount.

 

[paddy555]

I'm giving a much higher dose, but ffion Winnie was saying 3,000iu, I think?

It's a very good point, Paddy555, OP, ignore my advice to feed with selenium until you know how much vitamin e you are going to feed. Selenium is very toxic and the rda is in only half a gram of selenium yeast a day, which is a tiny, tiny amount.

everyone has their own personal experience with vit E. Having learnt from experience at going in to some horses at a lower level of 4000iu I would always now try 10000iu (I think you wrote recently of 12000iu so we are not far off here)

Lower levels help and will no doubt get there in the end but if you are considering PSSM without a biopsy or hair test then the higher level will give you some sort of answer as to whether you are in the right area.

In addition to PSSM (which the horse himself is genetically) there is also for these potential muscle problems the question of vitamin E deficiency myopathy. (lots on
google if anyone is interested, especially from the uni of minnesota) I found I had 4 horses short of vit E. That was due to their living conditions. Increased vit e got results. Many horses are on tracks, high hay diets or are grass restricted due to fears of lami etc. Not only do PSSM horses need vit E but PPID (cushings) horses benefit enormously for their muscle wastage.

 

[FfionWinnie]

I'm feeding 6000iu vit e - bear in mind my horse is only 14.2. 5000-10000iu is the norm.

Ybcm am I right in thinking your draft type is quite young? Unfortunately it does seem that it can be a progressive disease with affected horses becoming harder to manage with age. I think (hope) horses who have been managed well from a young age must have a better chance than horses that aren't diagnosed til later life however.

I don't supplement selenium as I decided the risk of over dose was too high. I do intend to get all her levels checked next time she has a blood test but as she is going well (and previous blood tests have mirrored her behavioural cues as to how she has been feeling) I'm not in a rush to change anything.

 

[ycbm]

Yes he's five. As the other had it right from the beginning and was obvious, I've been alive to the possibility that my draft cross had it too. I'm sure I didn't miss it, as I used him as the yardstick to measure how much my QHx was improving. Then suddenly this autumn, it became obvious that his bottom is far too hard, and now by far the more solid of the two. Also that it gets worse the longer it is that he isn't ridden, as if he needs exercise to pump his muscles 'clean'. The other isn't like that at all. In fact he was the opposite, too little stamina to work for too long and only up to working every other day at best.

I've got the QH nicely stable on 1500 iu (plus alcar) of vitamin e, having started on 12000iu that I got from a number of websites about the condition. He's 'normal' in terms of physical ability and stamina now. I don't think it's enough for the other, so I'll be whacking him up to 10,000 today (he's a lot smaller).

This condition seems to be extremely variable in how, and how much, it affects them, doesn't it?


Great info padyy555, thanks for that.

 

[Tangaroo]

Thanks for all the discussion its really interesting. Could i ask what feeds you actually give to your horses apart from the Vit e. Im trying to make sure i get it right. Someone has suggested Saracens re-leve and Equijewel but I'm open to other ideas. Do you feed oil as in corn oil and if so how much are you feeding? Sorry for all the questions.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for all the discussion its really interesting. Could i ask what feeds you actually give to your horses apart from the Vit e. Im trying to make sure i get it right. Someone has suggested Saracens re-leve and Equijewel but I'm open to other ideas. Do you feed oil as in corn oil and if so how much are you feeding? Sorry for all the questions.

My QHx has a kilo of own brand wheatfeed based cubes a day (theoretically a bad idea but he does well on them) with a handful of unmolassed oat straw and alfalfa chaff. And add lib haylage.

In summer they get the same, no cubes, and are out from 7pm to a minimum of 9am on plenty of grass, plus soaked haylage ad lib during the day.

My draft x has no cubes, just the chaff and haylage.

Both have 25g mag ox, 2.5g copper sulphate, 5g zinc, 0.5g selenium, vit e as discussed and a handful of salt. Copper, zinc and selenium to balance known selenium deficiency and iron/manganese overload in my grazing.

 

[paddy555]

Thanks for all the discussion its really interesting. Could i ask what feeds you actually give to your horses apart from the Vit e. Im trying to make sure i get it right. Someone has suggested Saracens re-leve and Equijewel but I'm open to other ideas. Do you feed oil as in corn oil and if so how much are you feeding? Sorry for all the questions.

do you do FB? if so search under "pssm forum" on the opening page is the PSSM diet in great detail. Well worth a read.

mine gets
copra
soaked alfalfa pellets

possibly micronised linseed but based on FW's observations I am re considering that

salt
equimins metabalance supplement without the chromium
50ml magox light
vitE oil
alcar
bicarb of soda (not a pssm recommendation but it has always seemed to work for him)

he could get fat easily so I try to keep the oil down as much as possible and we are coping on this.

I am also fanatical about rugging and exercise sheet for riding. Also about letting him wander round a yard with a stable rather than shut in.

There is also info on the forage plus website plus an article on there by Dr Kellon on PSSM.

Bear in mind every horse is slightly different. It is a case of working around the guidelines to find out what works for each.

 

[Tangaroo]

Thank you. I have joined the facebook page but only just getting started on the reading. You have all been a great help. Thankyou

 

[FfionWinnie]

2.5kg coolstance copra and 1.25kg alfalfa pellets. 6000iu natural vit e, heaped table spoon of pro earth 98% mag ox, 2 tbsp salt, 1 heaped tbsp alcar. No grass. Adlib hay. Exercised daily for an hour minimum.

Ybcm the wheat feed could be contributing to the lack of stamina. PSSM can affect the diaphragm, so if it's not well controlled that can affect breathing then stamina.

Cobs and draft types do seem more stoic about it than QH but there's plenty of QHs competing at barrel racing etc when they've been on the wrong diet and cusp of being destroyed only a year or so before.

My last year has taught me if my horse is not 100% like a normal horse, the diet or something else is wrong. They tend to be laid back horses BUT stress can make them symptomatic. I bought another horse and had her in beside Daisy. This made Daisy symptomatic. She improved within a couple of days of me removing the horse from her space. I know that probably sounds ridiculous and I would have agreed until I loved this blooming animal so much I would do anything it took to make her happy and symptom free. I thought I was putting human emotions on her but honestly this other horse made her angry. That made her tense, and that made her symptomatic.

She has only tied up once when I had only owned her for 5 weeks and was feeding her oats (and linseed, and various supplements) and stabling her and basically doing everything wrong. When this happened she did not appear to be too ill at all. In fact the vet diagnosed colic initially. However her CK and AST levels were off the scale. The scale is 100,000 - normal is the low hundreds, so she was internally at deaths door, externally she was a bit grumpy and not tracking up, oh and her urine was coffee coloured.

 

[RaYandFinn]

Sorry to highjack this thread everyone, but I've been doing some reading and this all sounds very familiar with my cob. I wonder if anyone can offer advice.

He's suffered with arthritic hocks for the last 5 years, but I'm beginning to wonder if we've been using that as an excuse when something else has been going on.

He has always been stiff with very tight muscles, tremors and ripples. Particularly over his hind quarters. He does sweat a lot and can be reluctant to work. Has gait abnormalities and various other things

I clipped him about 2 weeks ago which seems to have triggered this latest episode. My sharer went to ride him tonight... He was having none of it, but he is felt like a coiled spring the last two weeks.
He was very reluctant tonight and yesterday and almost looked as though he was tied up.

Can anyone offer any advice on symptoms and what to do next? Feed wise he's on a low sugar and starch mix from chestnut horse feeds, speedi beet, turmeric micronised linseed and pepper.

I'm really worried about the poor lad

TIA xx