Has insurance made useless owners?

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glamourpuss

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Sorry about the odd title HHO said what I wanted to put was too long :(

I'm certainly not saying everyone who insures is useless.

I was recently having a conversation with my farrier. He's very old school & was lamenting how now a days he feels many horse owners have lost the ability to deal with simple ailments & 1st aid. He claims because so many owners are insured they just automatically call the vet even for simple things.

He was talking about 1 woman he knows who since October has had the vet out 3 times. A wound that just needed dressing, mud fever & lameness that turned out to be a simple abscess (discovered by X-ray :-o )

Now there are some things I don't mess with. Colic, puncture wounds on a joint & wounds requiring stitches I'm straight to the vet, but a lot of things I think I have enough knowledge to deal with. Lameness I always call my farrier first (unless there it's obviously higher up the leg)
I can clean & dress simple wounds. I have a well stocked first aid box & I'm more than capable of dealing with an abcess etc

So do you think there is a tendency to call a vet too soon nowadays?
 
Perhaps it's not the fault of insurance, wouldn't most of these small call outs be less than the excess anyway, maybe its just that these days there's more and more people buying horses who don't know how to deal with these small issues by themselves.
 
Can't edit on phone but wanted to add, if they are unsure then they're probably doing the right thing by calling the vet, rather than say leaving a joint wound to get worse.
 
I'm not insured and since October have had the vet out about 5 times between 3 horses. Most things I'll fix up and keep an eye on but if something concerns me then its my duty as a horse owner to check its nothing morse serious and to check that they're getting the correct treatment.
 
I'm the same! My boy has only seen the vet 3 times in his 21 years (minus routine vacs etc)
1 was a major kick to his shoulder, even the vet thought it was fractured. Turned out to be fine, thank God!
2. lameness on the same leg (now an uninsured leg)
3. Yesterday going down with colic.

From some of the yards iv been on iv seen people accused of cruelty due to not calling a vet for simple manageable at home problems.
 
Perhaps the attitude when one has insurance is - better safe than sorry. I do think insurance has us all over a barrell these days - even down to fashion (e.g. hi-viz).

I wouldn't blame anyone for calling a vet out for an abscess to be quite honest... it can look like other things and unless you have a hoof tester to hand (I don't have one) then you may need the vet. Plus, if there is any "digging" to be done, I'd rather a vet do it than a farrier!!!! May not have hoof left if I let one of those loose (personal experience). In actual fact, someone who thought their horse had abscess and treated it as such turned out not to be - it was much more serious and horse was PTS. So, calling a vet out in cases of suspected abscesses is valid and sensible.

I agree wounds can be dealt with up to a certain degree - however, you cannot manage secondary infections like cellulitis without the help of a vet. Sometimes, even if you have dealt with the wound, a vet may be needed for antibiotics when infections set in.

What I think is that while many common ailments can be avoided in the first place, in modern times, the vet should be consulted. That is what they are there for and veterinary medicine changes so often that what someone did a few years ago, may not be valid today - often voiding any insurance claim you may have had, had you called the vet.

I'm afraid I do not look up to people who think they know enough NOT to call a vet when a vet is necessary. It just shows a lack of stewardship towards the care of the animal.
 
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With insurance you are in catch 22 because if you call the vet out and then do not inform the insurance company and it develops into something more then you are not insured.

We rarely call the vet as not much we cannot deal with but this knowledge has been gained through lots of horses and working out what is the issue. If its your first horse and you do not have anyone to offer advice who else are you going to turn to?
 
I think sometimes it depends on the circumstances, I'd hate my interpretation of what is wrong with my horse to be the wrong one and intervention needed earlier. I had mud fever with minimal scabs at the start of the winter that led to a swollen leg though nothing was showing - just one morning I found him very low, no lameness, just a bit stiff on one leg but he started to show a bit of distress almost like colic was coming on - I know my horse and I think you assess on that - he was not himself. So that was enough for me to call the vet - I'm so glad I did get the vet as by the afternoon his leg was thick like a small tree trunk from fetlock to hock. He's also had an itchy sheath on and off and while kept thinking it could be down to various things including rain scald as his belly and bits get plastered with mud and I also found bedding up there, it also just confirmed he's got mites, I got the vet to do a swab and thank goodness I did. Vile bacterial overgrowth. I did the looking after it myself bit for a few weeks and feel bad now that I didn't get the vet sooner for that. I have more problem with people that don't treat their horses properly for things that a vet can get under control quickly - my horse has got mites because others on the yard have it. I've seen enough examples where horses have been left in pain and discomfort for longer than they should be before someone would get a vet though that always has had to be the outcome.

I don't put such small vets bills through insurance it's not worth it if you take into account your excess and how your premiums would then go up plus maybe exclusions appear though you do I think with some insurance companies have to list any treatment you've had from year to year.
 
glamourpuss said:
He was talking about 1 woman he knows who since October has had the vet out 3 times. A wound that just needed dressing, mud fever & lameness that turned out to be a simple abscess (discovered by X-ray :-o )

Now there are some things I don't mess with. Colic, puncture wounds on a joint & wounds requiring stitches I'm straight to the vet, but a lot of things I think I have enough knowledge to deal with. Lameness I always call my farrier first (unless there it's obviously higher up the leg)
I can clean & dress simple wounds. I have a well stocked first aid box & I'm more than capable of dealing with an abcess etc

So do you think there is a tendency to call a vet too soon nowadays?
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I think a lot of it is down to experience - as I experience more situations and learn from them I am able to call the vet out less and less. Our lot always seem to have something going on so we do everything we can to minimise vet visits - we do many of our own shots where possible, I've borrowed a staple gun from the vet and stapled a small wound that literally needed 2 stiches/staples to hold it closed (it was a half square that was flapping) and really didn't need a vet visit (they wouldn't let me have suture material but were happy with the staple gun thing).
On the other side we have called the vet for an abcess on my sister's tb. At the time we had very little experience of abcesses (only had cobs other than this tb). He was practically on 3 legs with the 4th all twisted out. Even the vet was stumped as to what was going on (exact words: he's bu**ered the whole leg, hasn't he) as it looked like he had something really bad up in his hip area. We were at livery with our farrier and when we saw him the next day asked him what he though, he checked the foot and after a bit of digging found a big abcess. Through this we have learnt about abcesses (and what a wuss this horse is) and it's now the first thing we'll go to for dramatic lameness with no other obvious cause.
 
I get very annoyed about you don't need a a vet for an abcess. My pony a few years ago went lame could hardly walk. Everyone kept saying get the Farrier out its an abcess.
 
I don't really think its down to insurance. I think its because there are more novice owners, who aren't necessarily on yards with experienced people to call on for a second opinion or help, as the case would have been years ago. I remember the first wound that was more than a tiny graze I ever dealt with, & having an experienced adult livery & the ym explain everything, & for the few days it required dressing after there was always at least one knowledgeable person, either ym or livery, who could double check I was bandaging correctly & it was healing well. Now, I think its unlikely on your average cheap diy you'd be lucky to have that back up. And in all honesty, I have far more respect for someone who gets the vet needlessly, than someone who isn't sure what they are doing having a go.
 
Sorry posted before finished on my phone! Anyway, I decided on a vet and good job too it was an abcess but it was infected and the infection had spread up to his coronet area. The vet simply said if the anti biotics don't work by the end of the week, I'll have a case of no foot not horse. Never claimed for it cause it was under the excess. But if I called the Farrier first I would of had to pay him and my vet for treatment! I would rather call a vet if unsure than deal with it on my own and make the situation worse for my horses.
 
The reluctance of owners to treat injuries themselves causes a problem for everyone because it's these often unnecessary claims that send premiums up for other owners. I've seen vets called out for 'injuries' that if it was to the owner they would run it under a tap & put a plaster on it! Why they feel the need to call a vet is beyond me. :(
 
Toby_Zaphod said:
The reluctance of owners to treat injuries themselves causes a problem for everyone because it's these often unnecessary claims that send premiums up for other owners. I've seen vets called out for 'injuries' that if it was to the owner they would run it under a tap & put a plaster on it! Why they feel the need to call a vet is beyond me. :(
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Hmmm... if it was just a case of a plaster, most insurers would not even be called into the picture as such call-outs usually come under the excess which you pay yourself anyway.

Most minor call-outs don't exceed the average excess.
 
Toby_zaphod that is exactly what my farrier was getting at!

Lets also not forget the incidences now of antibiotic resistance where they have been doled out willy nilly :(

Please don't misunderstand me. I am certainly NOT anti vet or even anti insurance but I do think he has a point as Tony ZAphod says it got me thinking about yards I've been on & how quickly some owners are to call a vet.

I'm obviously in the minority but I would NEVER let a vet deal with an abscess/ foot bruising etc over my farrier.
My farrier deals with hooves day in day out. I have never seen him miss a problem. Just as i dont go to my doctor with a tooth ache i like to let a specialist deal with it. If you don't trust your farrier enough like this (& for the record I know my farrier would also tell me when him & me treating a condition isn't enough & the horse needs a vet :) ) then I suggest you need a new farrier!
 
I think that level of injury is unlikely to have an effect on insurance premiums, because most won't come near the excess.

I'm not convinced anything has changed, to be honest. How is one supposed to get experience, if not by watching and questioning experts in order to learn? If the same people were repeatedly calling the vet for small scrapes, or a mild mystery lameness that probably just needs a couple of days off (shoot me now) then that's different - but I strongly suspect in most cases in only happens once.

I can think of three separate ailments that I would probably have called the vet for a year ago, because I hadn't come up against them before. Now I have, I know how to deal with them myself next time. That doesn't make me useless, it makes me a normal owner - and I suspect the kind of owner that has been around for years and years and years.
 
I suspect it's not insurance but lack of experience and experienced YO's/ instructors around. Now you can pick up a pony for £500 on preloved, rock up to a part converted farm (where the farmer can just about spot one end of a pony from the other) and for £20 a week you can do as you please.

In the old days, people paid more for horses so had to have lessons for longer and save for them and yards were only really run by experienced people so, when I was a novice (as we all were) I had a YO who knew what she was on about who was always my first port of call and I learned from her experience a lot!

There was also a lot less daft H&S nonsence so I spent most of my weekends at a riding school I'm sure getting under everyone feet and badly mucking out etc. where I listerned to lots of people talking about lots of various horses stuff and again learned a lot. These days you can only go for structured 'horse care' days which cost a fortune and cover the same stuff again and again - so people just think - well I'll go and buy my own - how hard can it be !!!!!!
 
One of the things I learned was that 90% of lameness is in the foot and always to rule things out from the bottom up ie if foot totally fine then look at knee next then shoulder (in order of likelihood of something being wrong) I also believe that a farrier is more experienced in feet than any vet.

Farrier spends all his time looking at horses feet, vet spends (random guess) 30% of his time with horses and (another random guess) 50% of that time looking at feet - so far less 'feet' hours on the clock for the vet.
 
The problems that I see with things like this is that if you try to treat a wound (for example) by yourself, and then a week or so in you decide you need the vet - you are unlikely to be covered by insurance. We had a horse at work a couple of years ago - insured to the hilt, on full livery - had a wound. YO treated it herself and told the owners there was nothing she couldnt deal with - 10 days later,when it was pouring pus and the horse was 7/10 lame she finally admitted she couldnt do it, phoned us up and asked for antibiotics, of course we couldnt give her them (thats the law!) as we hadnt seen the horse, so she "got some off a friend" for a few days, then rang us and called us out when she had finished those. The horse had a fairly large wound down to the tendons - an infected hock, becuse what she didnt know was that there was a pocket full of dirt going down the leg and a puncture wound there as well.
We gave the horse a GA, 10 days of IV antibiotics, sterile dressings and it took months of box-rest to come right - the insurance company refused to pay any of the bill, as their terms and conditions state quite clearly that a horse with an injury must be seen by a vet. If we'd been called out straght away, the chances are that their 8k bill would have been about 5, as it was - that 10 days or so that the YO thought she knew what she was doing cost far far more than anyone could have anticipated,and almost someone elses horses life.

You also have the problem that its all very well saying that you know exactly what you are doing and the horse only needs a bandage for a week or whatever - you could well be right, but if it appears on your horses history and you need to claim, then the insurance company WILL find out - every claim that gets sent from a vet must be accompanied by the horses history. Vets arent allowed to withhold information, if the owner wants to hide stuff, thats up to them, but no vet that isnt dodgy will change things, or withhold information. Im in this exciting position myself - mine was footy a few months ago, and when the vet came out to check her, she showed slight resistance to flexion of her fetlock - within a few days horse was fine, but I know now that if she ever goes lame enough on that leg to warrent a proper lameness exam, the first thing Im going to get is "not connected to her left fore fetlock" One of those things, she wasnt lame enough to do an exam on at the time, and hasnt been since, but at least we know we will have to tell them shes been fine after and hope they accept that!!

So if you treat something yourself, dont mention it to anyone - then nobody apart from you needs to lie (if its needed!) but dont put down the people who call the vet for anything - they are following the "rules" !! (and Im NOT condoning lying to anyone, I just think sometimes its a bit silly that they dont let people use thier own judgement.)
 
Insurance premiums are pushed up by MAJOR costs such as MRI, surgery, sophisticated diagnostics, new therapies and if you think a few stitches, the odd abscess is what pushes up premiums then you are way off the mark!!! LOL :D

Does anyone know how much MRI costs?

What about simple PRP?
 
No but I think that common sense and good old fashioned horse sense can be lacking nowadays.

You learn things by doing them as well, not just reading them in a book. The first time I had to take a shoe off was a big thing but experience teaches. A lot of owners don't even have the kit to remove a shoe when necessity calls so have to call on their YO, farrier or vet to do so.

Everyone is different and some RS don't seem to teach stable management alongside riding. It is amazing how many folks when I have advertised for an experienced person to help exercise my OH's ID that when they turn up, don't even know how to catch a horse in a field, or put a headcollar on, never mind asking them to groom or tack up correctly, yet will class themselves as experienced rider.

I am always prepared to help someone to learn but I always take what folks say about their ability with a large pinch of salt and I learn more about their abilities/experience by watching them that any amount of talk.
 
tallyho! said:
Insurance premiums are pushed up by MAJOR costs such as MRI, surgery, sophisticated diagnostics, new therapies and if you think a few stitches, the odd abscess is what pushes up premiums then you are way off the mark!!! LOL :D

Does anyone know how much MRI costs?

What about simple PRP?
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Absolutely - it's the massive advances in technology that are so expensive - not so long ago treatments were 1)box rest 2) field rest 3) PTS. I'm not saying that was right just that with all the options available now it's not really a supprise that insurance has increased massively.

It's exactly the same issue that has bankrupted the NHS - what we pay in as a nation does not cover the cost of all the clever treatments that are now available to people hence the NHS is very very broken !
 
tallyho! said:
Insurance premiums are pushed up by MAJOR costs such as MRI, surgery, sophisticated diagnostics, new therapies and if you think a few stitches, the odd abscess is what pushes up premiums then you are way off the mark!!! LOL :D

Does anyone know how much MRI costs?

What about simple PRP?
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Yep - theres this too. You have to also remember (which tallyho has and I didnt :D !) that treatments have come on MILES in the last 10 years, theres little that cant be sorted out now,but it all costs. Owners rightly want the very best for their horses (but hope they never need them!) but someone has to pay - and this is where the insurance companies come in. Colic surgery has a much better prognosis these days than it used to - but it still often costs a lot more than the 5k limit most people have on their premium.

The NHS is also a little to blame - because we dont have to pay for things over here (we are SO lucky !!) people dont realise how much things cost. The countries where you have to have health insurance have a much more realistic idea of cost for things like x-rays etc IMO.
 
I agree too,that insurance has a lot to answer for.
This is mostly because if anyone reads the small print on their policy,they woud realise even if you do not claim,you have to advise them that you have had the vet out-thus giving you an exclusion. So,you may as well claim anyway!
In addition,I woud rather call my farrier. He studies the horses leg from the knee down for four years.
A vet studies animals in general for five,then maybe does a year or specialising in the horse generally.
No contest unless farrier tells me I need vet!
 
glamourpuss said:
Sorry about the odd title HHO said what I wanted to put was too long :(

I'm certainly not saying everyone who insures is useless.

I was recently having a conversation with my farrier. He's very old school & was lamenting how now a days he feels many horse owners have lost the ability to deal with simple ailments & 1st aid. He claims because so many owners are insured they just automatically call the vet even for simple things.

He was talking about 1 woman he knows who since October has had the vet out 3 times. A wound that just needed dressing, mud fever & lameness that turned out to be a simple abscess (discovered by X-ray :-o )

Now there are some things I don't mess with. Colic, puncture wounds on a joint & wounds requiring stitches I'm straight to the vet, but a lot of things I think I have enough knowledge to deal with. Lameness I always call my farrier first (unless there it's obviously higher up the leg)
I can clean & dress simple wounds. I have a well stocked first aid box & I'm more than capable of dealing with an abcess etc

So do you think there is a tendency to call a vet too soon nowadays?
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I think the answer to this is yes and no certainly I can understand that insurance could change your attitude to calling the vet , but it's surely good that uncertain owners get the vet out even if it's unnecessary rather than try to go it alone.
One thing I seriously disaggree with you about is the farrier, I would never ever call a fairrier to a lame horse they are not trained to diagnose and ought not strictly not even cut a hole into a horses sole to look for pus with out veterinary supervision .
 
tallyho! said:
Insurance premiums are pushed up by MAJOR costs such as MRI, surgery, sophisticated diagnostics, new therapies and if you think a few stitches, the odd abscess is what pushes up premiums then you are way off the mark!!! LOL :D

Does anyone know how much MRI costs?

What about simple PRP?
Click to expand...

I don't know what PRP is :o but just wanted to say, MRI costs have reduced now they're not under general - £1100 now.

My little arab cost the insurance the full £5000 in vet fees for MRI, keratoma surgery and aftercare. Then he sliced his hock open and cost them over a grand in sedations, stitching and bandaging, which went relatively without complications, so I'd say injuries do add up a fair bit to insurance costs. I like insurance!
 
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Flame_ said:
I don't know what PRP is :o but just wanted to say, MRI costs have reduced now they're not under general - £1100 now.

My little arab cost the insurance the full £5000 in vet fees for MRI, keratoma surgery and aftercare. Then he sliced his hock open and cost them over a grand in sedations, stitching and bandaging, which went relatively without complications, so I'd say injuries do add up a fair bit to insurance costs. I like insurance!
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Still one of those major costs I'm talking about and I never mentioned associated stuff which fleshes out the cost e.g. sedation etc.

As for slicing the hock open - exactly!!! Thats when you do need the vet!!!

My statement was aimed at those who think piddly little call-outs here and there is what makes everyone's premiums rise. They might have a tiny impact but it's not what insurers base any increase on.

By the way PRP is platelet-rich-plasma therapy - relatively cheap tendon injury therapy... around £2.5k ALL TOLD (including sedation, follow-up, scans etc).
 
Most minor problems which owners may be unsure as to whether to call a vet, would cost less than the excess on the insurance, and so I don't think there is a difference whether you are insured or not. The only difference, I think is that you may have more diagnostic tests done such as xrays. For example, laminitis. If you are uninsured you may still get the vet, bute and box rest your horse on a deep shavings bed. If you are insured you might also get xrays done. If you are not insured, you may wait longer before deciding you need xrays doing.
 
tallyho! said:
Still one of those major costs I'm talking about and I never mentioned associated stuff which fleshes out the cost e.g. sedation etc.

As for slicing the hock open - exactly!!! Thats when you do need the vet!!!

My statement was aimed at those who think piddly little call-outs here and there is what makes everyone's premiums rise. They might have a tiny impact but it's not what insurers base any increase on.

By the way PRP is platelet-rich-plasma therapy - relatively cheap tendon injury therapy... around £2.5k ALL TOLD (including sedation, follow-up, scans etc).
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Cheers. :) Right, I'm with you. No, little, unnecessary call outs shouldn't affect insurance as they'll be within the excess, like you said.
 
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