Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Surely by forcing people the number of dogs given to rescues or abandonned is only going to peak, if only maybe for a short time, thus shifting the responsibilty and cost only rescues??
Has only been on five minutes and crying already!
- Thread starter Bop!
- Start date
galaxy
Well-Known Member
I think this does sound a good idea. Obviously there are a few points that would be difficult to work through.
1. What age would they have to be "done" by? Obviously (good!) breeders only want to breed from their best dogs over the age of 2. How would you allow this without penalising them for being responsible without the less responsible people breeding from dogs that are too young?
2. how would you police that a bitch had been "done"?
3. KC would have to allow people who show their dogs to have them neutered and still allowed to show. I know plenty of people who show with no intention of breeding.
I like the train of thought!
blackcob
🖖
How about a government funded neutering drive? I know the PDSA probably covers this to an extent but it's not very well publicised and the criteria are a bit odd, it could be extended to all low-income families and not just those in receipt of certain benefits.
Spaying a female is surprisingly expensive, especially for big dogs (I'm so glad we got Dax done early, she was just under a weight threshold, would have cost us over £200 if we'd waited this long!).
Spaying a female is surprisingly expensive, especially for big dogs (I'm so glad we got Dax done early, she was just under a weight threshold, would have cost us over £200 if we'd waited this long!).
spaniel
Well-Known Member
'1. What age would they have to be "done" by? Obviously (good!) breeders only want to breed from their best dogs over the age of 2. How would you allow this without penalising them for being responsible without the less responsible people breeding from dogs that are too young?'
I would presume, although I dont know, that by the age of 12 month a good breeder would be able to get a reasonably fair idea of a dogs standard and then make the decision to spey or not??? Not ideal as bitches can pup younger than this so maybe you would need to rely on vets or the general public alerting to litters of pups?
'2. how would you police that a bitch had been "done"?'
In an ideal world maybe a tattoo or failing that a marker on the compulsory microchip - or both??
'3. KC would have to allow people who show their dogs to have them neutered and still allowed to show. I know plenty of people who show with no intention of breeding.'
KC needs to drag itself into the 21st century...!!
I would presume, although I dont know, that by the age of 12 month a good breeder would be able to get a reasonably fair idea of a dogs standard and then make the decision to spey or not??? Not ideal as bitches can pup younger than this so maybe you would need to rely on vets or the general public alerting to litters of pups?
'2. how would you police that a bitch had been "done"?'
In an ideal world maybe a tattoo or failing that a marker on the compulsory microchip - or both??
'3. KC would have to allow people who show their dogs to have them neutered and still allowed to show. I know plenty of people who show with no intention of breeding.'
KC needs to drag itself into the 21st century...!!
Ranyhyn
Well-Known Member
Please see my point above.
The rescues will not be able to cope with the huge amount of people who will say "no way" to compulsory neutering.
The rescues will not be able to cope with the huge amount of people who will say "no way" to compulsory neutering.
CorvusCorax
Stunning (and brave)
Didn't see the show, was out at Toy Story 3 
Re showing, male dogs need to have two - thingies! - fully descended into the - wotsit - (not using correct words in case I get a warning again, ho hum...)
Monorchidism (one) and crypotorchidism (none!) are serious faults, quite rightly. Every neutered male dog would need an official litter from the vet saying that at point of removal, the dog did have two thingies, fully descended into the wotsit.
Re a dog being right (or not) by 12 months, I have seen some real stinkers turn into swans by 18 months or vice versa, lovely pups who have gone right off.
I know I have come across like a real stickler for standards - but it's a balance - I have a lovely looking bitch who would be a great size corrector, but her character is not right for breeding. Some people have ropy looking dogs, but they have great lines behind them, and would like to mate them to a better constructed dog to make improvements.
Compulsory neutering would not be as cut and dried as it initially seems, although I agree with the sentiment.
A side note - the people who cry over edgy dogs being destroyed - how do people feel about the proposed banning of training tools or methods which, while not pretty, could save these dog's lives?
Re showing, male dogs need to have two - thingies! - fully descended into the - wotsit - (not using correct words in case I get a warning again, ho hum...)
Monorchidism (one) and crypotorchidism (none!) are serious faults, quite rightly. Every neutered male dog would need an official litter from the vet saying that at point of removal, the dog did have two thingies, fully descended into the wotsit.
Re a dog being right (or not) by 12 months, I have seen some real stinkers turn into swans by 18 months or vice versa, lovely pups who have gone right off.
I know I have come across like a real stickler for standards - but it's a balance - I have a lovely looking bitch who would be a great size corrector, but her character is not right for breeding. Some people have ropy looking dogs, but they have great lines behind them, and would like to mate them to a better constructed dog to make improvements.
Compulsory neutering would not be as cut and dried as it initially seems, although I agree with the sentiment.
A side note - the people who cry over edgy dogs being destroyed - how do people feel about the proposed banning of training tools or methods which, while not pretty, could save these dog's lives?
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EAST KENT
Well-Known Member
Spudlet, there already is a Breeding Licence, anyone with more than 2 bitches of breeding age is supposed to have a licence from their local council. Trouble is its very poorly enforced, and different councils apply different criteria, some will issue a licence without even visiting the breeder.
The breeding licence has changed;now only people breeding five or more litters per year need to be licenced..a retrograde step if ever there was one.Also,for a while the Kennel Club would only register one litter per year to each bitch,they`ve dropped that one now..even Council licenced breeders can merrily thrash a poor bitch to death..BUT that rule still holds on Accreditted Breeders,daft ain`t it? Only answer I can come up with,and it works for my dogs,is EVERY puppy is KC Endorsed on it`s papers "Progeny not eligible for Registration".And all our puppies are NDTR tattooed before sale,with no exceptions.That makes every puppy traceable back to me,the breeder,so any puppy in trouble can be rescued and rehomed by myself..GREAT STUFF as far as I am concerned.
Chestunutmare!
Well-Known Member
Been looking into rescuing- I like the idea of the dogs trust who never put a healthy dog to sleep, but then the RSPCA if the perfect dog was going to be destroyed but I dont like the way they work! and we havent had a dog before, but dog sat- been around dogs all my life and dont have the mandatory 6 ft fences around the garden and it is alot of unneeded hastle to rescue so its easy to see why people just buy pups and dont have all these rules and having to fork out alot in fencing costs- they also ask for breed ownership experience, which I clearly dont have as weve never had a dog, but been around them for ever but this doesnt seem to count- there shooting them selves in the foot
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
Gawd I'm out of touch! 5 or more litters is crazy, def a backward step. I never had more than 2 breeding bitches so never had a licence, but like you have always sold pups tattooed and with reg papers endorsed, in the hope I will always know what happens to them.
Bop!
Well-Known Member
Am not sure which training tools or methods you are referring to but even if these dogs were rehabilitated. there are never going to be enough decent homes to give them the lifestyle and continued care that they would need surely?
To clarify, I wasn't crying so much at "edgy dogs being destroyed" more at the desperate situation that so many dogs are in, whether that be in the pound or being destroyed, due to irresponsible owners who treat them like disposable objects and irresponsible breeders just out to make a fast buck.
It's a bit chicken and egg I think - do you try and tackle the owners or the breeders? Make it more difficult to own a dog and demand dries up or make it more difficult to breed and supply dries up? The difficulty as others have said is always going to be how to police any legislation to give it the best chance of success.
Perhaps a tax on purchaser and breeder going straight from government coffers to rescue and welfare organisations? But I guess once again that the decent would do right and others would hide under radar?
As I said - dont know the answer but just because a problem seems insurmountable, doesnt mean that those in power should ignore it
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Been looking into rescuing- I like the idea of the dogs trust who never put a healthy dog to sleep, but then the RSPCA if the perfect dog was going to be destroyed but I dont like the way they work! and we havent had a dog before, but dog sat- been around dogs all my life and dont have the mandatory 6 ft fences around the garden and it is alot of unneeded hastle to rescue so its easy to see why people just buy pups and dont have all these rules and having to fork out alot in fencing costs- they also ask for breed ownership experience, which I clearly dont have as weve never had a dog, but been around them for ever but this doesnt seem to count- there shooting them selves in the foot
I have a rescue dog, I had never had my own dog before, I work and he has to left at home sometimes with a dog walker coming in, I rent, I have a tiny backyard, and none of this caused any issue.
itsme123
Well-Known Member
I've thought about this alot since I saw the programme.
Re the PDSA, you have to live in the catchment area of a PDSA centre to be able to even apply for help. Many don't.
Re the dog PTS in the programme. Whilst heartbreaking, I understand that battersea cannot take in and keep every dog for rehoming. Therefore, only the dogs which are most suitable for rehoming will 'go through'. The dog was on edge in an aggressive stance, and yes, they could have found a home for it maybe, but it's a huge risk, and is it worth the anxiety to that dog when you can just cut it's life short and save it possibly being rehomed, coming back, confusion, and rehoming, coming back more confusuion.
I don't know the answer re breeding either.
Surely advertisers, gumtree, preloved etc have some responsibility for allowing free ads for people who constantly advertise?
maybe concentrate on the one sex? Have a free / reduced price programme for lopping testicles off. It's obvious when it's been done, and less males means less pups too. Pay a tax on dogs with spuds or licence them. Therefore, the cost of stud dogs would increase meaning only the serious breeder would use them.
Local dog wardens could monitor this with ease as you only have to walk round to see who's dog's been done and who's hasn't.
Re the PDSA, you have to live in the catchment area of a PDSA centre to be able to even apply for help. Many don't.
Re the dog PTS in the programme. Whilst heartbreaking, I understand that battersea cannot take in and keep every dog for rehoming. Therefore, only the dogs which are most suitable for rehoming will 'go through'. The dog was on edge in an aggressive stance, and yes, they could have found a home for it maybe, but it's a huge risk, and is it worth the anxiety to that dog when you can just cut it's life short and save it possibly being rehomed, coming back, confusion, and rehoming, coming back more confusuion.
I don't know the answer re breeding either.
Surely advertisers, gumtree, preloved etc have some responsibility for allowing free ads for people who constantly advertise?
maybe concentrate on the one sex? Have a free / reduced price programme for lopping testicles off. It's obvious when it's been done, and less males means less pups too. Pay a tax on dogs with spuds or licence them. Therefore, the cost of stud dogs would increase meaning only the serious breeder would use them.
Local dog wardens could monitor this with ease as you only have to walk round to see who's dog's been done and who's hasn't.
Chestunutmare!
Well-Known Member
I have a rescue dog, I had never had my own dog before, I work and he has to left at home sometimes with a dog walker coming in, I rent, I have a tiny backyard, and none of this caused any issue.
Ahhh thats good- I was looking into a staffy from the blue cross they specificly asked for breed experience and fencing around the garden, where did you get your dog from?
prosefullstop
Well-Known Member
As I said in SB, I didn't see the programme, which is probably a good thing, as no doubt I would have balled for England.
Here in NYC, they recently implemented a ban on keeping Pits and Pit mixes on the equivalent of council house properties. While it's regretful that decent owners will lose out, the kill shelters in the city are full to bursting with Pits (makes for depressing viewing, but you'll see what I mean: www.nyacc.org), leaving them with little option but to take drastic measures. Dog licenses are required in the city, but are rarely enforced.
Pit bulls are becoming more and more popular in my area of downtown Manhattan. The no-kill shelter in my area--which has cleverly branded itself as a slick boutique in order to compete with the puppy stores--has done a superb job at dispelling breed myths, and it's now commonplace to see young college graduates, professional couples and--shock horror--mothers with strollers, accompanied by a Pit or some variant thereof.
The shelters here sound a bit more relaxed than in England, too. They insist on working or country homes for Collie types, and any Southern-transplant Hounds or Pointers, but canine apartment dwelling is by no means looked down on, nor is working more than four hours out of the home, although our local shelter does emphasise the need for doggie daycare/walkers/and offers large discounts for their obedience and agility classes.
While I wouldn't expect a shelter to let me have, say, a Viszla in my apartment, it seems silly that I would be excluded from owning lapdogs or older dogs.
Here in NYC, they recently implemented a ban on keeping Pits and Pit mixes on the equivalent of council house properties. While it's regretful that decent owners will lose out, the kill shelters in the city are full to bursting with Pits (makes for depressing viewing, but you'll see what I mean: www.nyacc.org), leaving them with little option but to take drastic measures. Dog licenses are required in the city, but are rarely enforced.
Pit bulls are becoming more and more popular in my area of downtown Manhattan. The no-kill shelter in my area--which has cleverly branded itself as a slick boutique in order to compete with the puppy stores--has done a superb job at dispelling breed myths, and it's now commonplace to see young college graduates, professional couples and--shock horror--mothers with strollers, accompanied by a Pit or some variant thereof.
The shelters here sound a bit more relaxed than in England, too. They insist on working or country homes for Collie types, and any Southern-transplant Hounds or Pointers, but canine apartment dwelling is by no means looked down on, nor is working more than four hours out of the home, although our local shelter does emphasise the need for doggie daycare/walkers/and offers large discounts for their obedience and agility classes.
While I wouldn't expect a shelter to let me have, say, a Viszla in my apartment, it seems silly that I would be excluded from owning lapdogs or older dogs.
Spudlet
Well-Known Member
Ahhh thats good- I was looking into a staffy from the blue cross they specificly asked for breed experience and fencing around the garden, where did you get your dog from?
The Dogs Trust. I think with them it depends on the individual dog, sometimes they say a dog needs someone with experience of the breed but this is not always the case as I prove
Chestunutmare!
Well-Known Member
ahhh- you just made my day just hope some one nice picks the beautiful staffy I had my eye on
just hope some one nice picks the beautiful staffy I had my eye on