Have breed and conformation standards really dropped?

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burtie

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I see so many posts on here with people looking for horses and having just bought horses and in all honesty the first thing that springs to mind is how badly put together it is. If they are looking I try to be diplomatic, but if they have bought it already and are showing off their pride and joy I do keep quiet!


I know there has always been some real horrers out there but they generally just ended up going for meat.

I am wondering if it's because a correctly bred, well put toghether horse/pony will cost a fair bit of money and people always want a bargain?

I see poeple have a budget of around £2-3k for a nice RC/hack horse, yet I paid £1800 for a nice RC horse over 20 years ago. If I were looking today I would expect to pay at around £4k as I know how much it costs to produce a horse.
 
i agree with you.

i know there are bargains out there to be had but they are few and far between and in general you get what you pay for.

i paid over £2k for the last horse i bought as a foal and i thought he was cheap for what he was!
 
I don't think it's that, I think it's that there are a lot of people now who came up through riding schools not the PC system and so who have never learnt anything at all about what is good and bad conformation.

When I learnt to ride (at a RS 20 odd years ago I hasten to add!) we did an hour of riding and an hour of stable management on a saturday morning. They taught me everything from stripping and putting a bridle back together to conformation, wound care, pasture management etc etc. From talking to people now, that was the exception even then.....
 
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I don't think it's that, I think it's that there are a lot of people now who came up through riding schools not the PC system and so who have never learnt anything at all about what is good and bad conformation.

When I learnt to ride (at a RS 20 odd years ago I hasten to add!) we did an hour of riding and an hour of stable management on a saturday morning. They taught me everything from stripping and putting a bridle back together to conformation, wound care, pasture management etc etc. From talking to people now, that was the exception even then.....


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I think you have avery good point. I do a fair bit of teaching and although many of my clients have very lovely RC type horses. I have had some turn up with some very interesting types! It is very difficult as obviously they love their horses but keeping them sound and training them correctly becomes an almost impossible task.
 
So, if this is so, is it the fault of the Breeders for producing the incorrect animals in the first place, or of the buyers for buying them and creating a market? A vicious circle that isn't going to stop until people cease buying horses.

Because a grounding in all things horse is not a requirement for owning one, knowledge/ appreciation of conformation is largely a self taught 'skill' for many owners . Many people, as mentioned in a post above, simply don't know or, even care that much if bits of a horse are less than technically correct if they like him and he does the job.
 
I know nothing about conformation.........but then I do know when a horse looks like a camel!!

The people in my field are terrible for buying horses on a whim, usually from dodgy dealers, and I can't believe the sort of trash that comes in. I mean SERIOUSLY! I am a total novice but surely people can see when a horse is totally wierd behind or unsound?!

I think part of the problem is that there is 'one born every minute'. Most people seem to spend around £2.5 - £3k at my place and 9 times out of 10 the horses are completely unsuitable and worth nowhere near that amount. That means that people keep breeding these poor specimens.
 
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So, if this is so, is it the fault of the Breeders for producing the incorrect animals in the first place, or of the buyers for buying them and creating a market? A vicious circle that isn't going to stop until people cease buying horses.

Because a grounding in all things horse is not a requirement for owning one, knowledge/ appreciation of conformation is largely a self taught 'skill' for many owners . Many people, as mentioned in a post above, simply don't know or, even care that much if bits of a horse are less than technically correct if they like him and he does the job.

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I wouldn't like to apportion blame! I guess the bottom line is, I would rather see someone safe and happy having fun on a horse which looks like it was put together from a bucket of left over bits than I would see someone on a horse with perfect conformation which is completely wrong for them.

I think the issue comes when you get the situations Burtie describes - people who love their horses, but whose horses can't do the job they now want them to as the owners capabilities/ambitions exceed what the horse is capable of doing, as a result of its conformation. That's the point at which problems arise - and people do need to face up to the fact that they need to either go back to doing what they were before, or find a new horse who can do what they desire - because it's not fair on the horse to constantly ask it to achieve things which its physical makeup won't allow it to do comfortably.
 
I think it is a combination of all your points

People are coming up through RS, and are not taught the conformation side of things. The market is flooded with cheap horses that were bound for meat and have now been "saved" and are snapped up by those wanting a horse and looking for a bargin.

I don't think you can really blame the breeders for producing incorrect animals as it is a little bit of pot luck what comes out. A fab mare and a fab stallion does not always = fab foal.

The only thing I think you can blame breeders for and that includes the big studs down to the "back street breeders" is over production..... and even that may be pushing it

Spotted cat..... I think you may well have summed it up perfectly
 
I came up through the RS system as hence am on my first pony. and any confo info is just self taught. I like looking at pics on here and what others say.

We have 2 RC allrounders, one was £1800 (though she was young but has been brought on by 2 pretty inexperienced riders so not complicated!) and my boy who was just under 3k as a 12yo. The first has pretty rubbish confo, though I think her legs are prob ok but it doesnt stop her doing anything, my boy actually has pretty good confo.... but thats a bit of a fluke really
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When I saw him I though he looked smart but thats as far as I would have known 5 years ago!
 
I think a lot has to do with the change in standards and discipline with horses. At the risk of sounding like a crabby old bat UK Pony Club in my day was an almost para military organisation where you would sweat over the Pony Club manual, charts of the points of the horse. You were expected to muck out a full straw bed, thatch a horse after exercise, make wisps for strapping expect a rapped knuckle for using the wrong brush on the wrong part of the horse, groom a horse, quarter a horse, know hooves inside out. There were timed contests to strip a bridle and clean it and put it back together. Tack inspections it was an incredible learning experience and the instructors and DCs were not slow in pointing out why a horse was good or bad and would brutally criticise your pony with "nice sort but a little bit on the common side" LOL I would not have had it any other way. Stable management was always part of riding lessons at the school I learned. Reginald Summerhays and his encyclopedia were compulsory readng and the Observers Book of Horses and Ponies was my bible. It is true to say that a lot of people have an eye for a horse but the basics can and should be learned about conformation. As my daughterwho is studying veterinary medicine said to me after anatomy of the horses leg and hoof she now really understands how conformation affects soundness and performance. There is a great DVD by a US paleantologist (sp) think she is called Su Bennet who is also a horsewoman and she completely goes through conformation using real examples well worth a look. I really do not want to offend anyone but if you are considering buying a horse go to the top visit a few shows, look at the type of horse you want and try to see why that horse is winning its class, you would be surprised how you begin to see what is good and what is not. Phew - OMG I really am turning into my old riding teacher!!!!!!!!!!
 
Just an add on - I bought a four year old mare for £2000 25years ago! She never had a lame day in her life and died peacefully in Ireland her birth country age 25 years. Conformation spot on, temperament beautiful.

Re bargain horse, they are to be had but you need to know what you are looking at and looking for
 
I think it may also be to do wiht the general much lighter work load of many ponies (and horses these days). years ago when people needed horses to actuall work for them it was more important that they checked out conformation - nowadays this sort of lapsed as most horses do only a very basic amount of work and so can manage even wiht very poor conformation. a lady at my yard has a 13.2 that takes 6'3" rugs and has an upside down neck - the pony is however nice and quiet and does everything she needs for PC etc so it's all fine...

Also, when evaluating the price of horses these days the main two things seem to be 1) competiiton experience and/or potential 2) quietness. Arguably 1) relates to conformation but maybe not to such a great extent if you only want to compete locally or at lower affil standards - so there's no reason not to breed/keep selling horses wiht poor conformation as it has such little impact on the price.

intersting discussion though - definitely interested to see what others think!!
 
I wouldn't say I know an awful lot about confo etc. but I know a bit, or enough! Whichever you like. Again - self taught and having a mother who showed dogs never did me any harm as I got used to looking at conformation, and swapping it over to horses isn't too different. I know my horse isn't perfect, but he isn't bad either. Worst part is that his shoulder is slightly too upright in my opinion!

I think a lot of it is that people who come into riding don't particularly care about learning about things such as conformation, can't be bothered teaching themselves.

Would be nice to think that people would make an effort to breed well put together horses though, for the sake of the horse! Can't be fun being lame every week because your legs are so badly put together can it?
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Just to be devils advocate, there are plenty of "incorrect" horses doing a super job for their owners though. If you want a low level RC horse a hack or a hunter who cares if it dishes or is pidgeon toed or cow hocked as long as it is sound for the job.

I ride in a riding school at the moment (and we do get taught conformation, and did when I was a child too!) and there are horses in the school who are a lesson in conformational faults but those horses are standing up to much harder work than the average leisure horse and giving many people great pleasure.

There are horses regularly doing BHS stage two and three training that Dish, Plait, have a fallen heel, boxy feet several that are croup high, pidgeon toed and cow hocked. Interestingly one of the worst put together horses there is a very elderly former BSJA pony with significant winnings and never a days lameness. One that went to HOYS as a M&M and WHP had to be retired to a light hack home at 10 - beautiful to look at but terrible arthritis.

Whilst we shouldn't be breeding horses intentionally with faults I think it is great that these "faulty" horses have happy useful homes rather than going for meat!
 
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My PC years were like that too! Years later I became a PC Secretary/occasional theory Instructor and I found teaching some (not ALL) children quite hard, they simply were not interested in basic conformation in even the smallest doses, it was also quite hard to pull out ponies to point out less than perfect points because people took offence and we weren't allowed to do that.
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I have just pulled out one of the most useful books I have, it is 'A Photographic Guide to Conformation' by Robert Oliver ad Bob Langrish. What I like most about the book is that 'correct' and less than correct conformation is shown side by side.

When I bought my first Quarter Horse I almost didn't get him because his forelegs (to my British eyes) looked strange, I went home and looked at hundreds of QH's online and discovered that it is a breed characteristic (that'll teach me to do my homework first!
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) and that whilst QH (like Tbs, or arabians for example) are under the umbrella heading of one breed, there are differing types within that breed. The point I am making, in a long winded way is that although the mechanics are the same in any horse (arabians being awkward and an exception and having more/less bones) the appearance isn't and you have to learn that.

Agree totally that breeding is pot luck, perfect parents don't always produce the perfect offspring, there is nothing to be done about that, and less than perfect parents sometimes throw out spectacular specimens.
 
For years my sisters used to buy ponies and horses from a dealer so I suppose they only ever bought animals they knew they could sell on reasonably quickly and easily.
Then I wanted a particular breed and started looking at youngsters in private homes and stud farms. It was a lesson in conformation! How some of them got bred was a mystery.
I never realised how bad some horses could be. I saw one horse and it only had one good leg out of 4, there were all sorts of terrible things. I really wondered what ever happened to the horses because I couldn't see how some of them would ever stand up to any work.

I got to the point of having one vetted, despite some reservations, which I discussed with the vet beforehand (it was a long way away). Failed vet. Another one I discussed with my vet first and he said he wouldn't waste my money by going to look at it as he couldn't possibly pass it as fit for my purposes.

I guess some people just don't know, others don't bother.

On the other hand I knew a really good pony that had the worst cow hocks I had ever seen. That jumped like a dream and was a top class eventing pony and lasted until a good old age - so you never know.
 
My OH bought the little (15h) mare 15 years ago for £2000 from a stud, he's a design engineer so he has an eye for construction and form.
This little mare has taken me xc, sj, dressage everything, and bred a fantastic foal who is 6 now and the main horse.
Conformation is everything and there are horrors out there that would have gone for meat in the days when people could not afford vets on every whim and the horse was a long term prospect particularly if competing therefore soundness was paramount.
I know I'm leaning against an open door on this one, I too learnt and devoured everything I could about conformation and the two terrors of laminitis and navicular, the latter put down to upright front and long back syndrome.
Losing the thread now so I'll stop before I start frothing at the mouth.
 
Interesting thread.... not sure if my buying the new one might have sparked it?
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Neither Bean or my new mare are wonderfully put together. I was pm'ing Kerrili asking for confo crit on the horses I was seeing, as I didn't feel I knew enough about it.

Lady has long pasterns, a long back, slightly flat front feet and is ever so slightly back at the knee. I spoke to the vet who vetted her about these etc and she didn't feel that it was something that was going to hinder her at the work level etc that she was doing. If I had had £8k to spend, things would have been different, but I didn't. In the grand scheme of things, I have seen a LOT worse, and conformation isn't everything.

Perhaps in 3 years time when I have a fecked up horse I will regret ever buying her despite reservations; but equally I could have a wonderful horse who is everything I hoped.

You see some really fantastically put together horses that are write offs at the age of 7, you see some totally awful ones that are competing into their 20s. A lot of it is pot luck, and sometimes, when the budget is small, you just have to take a chance.
 
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