Have I done the right thing with my "elderly" dog?

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Patches

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Jasper is a 13 1/2 year old cocker spaniel. He doesn't act or particularly look his age, apart from going grey around the muzzle and ears (he's a black dog).

About 4 years ago he had 11 teeth removed. He has never, not once in all of his life, chewed a bone, dental rasp etc. Never. He's had the same plastic pork chop dog squeaky thingy for 10 years...not one tooth mark in it! lol

After he had the teeth out, we had to change his diet to one with dual size kibble to help clean his remaining teeth. We did this...he had Hill Science Senior. He wouldn't eat it after a few days unless gravy was added to it. The vet decided that he'd be better off back on his old beloved Bakers Senior (I know, I know) than on a dry food turned to mush with gravy. We did this probably for a few years but I have recently (the last six months) found he will readily eat Beta Senior and Iams. He's currently on Iams.

We have tried brushing his teeth, with limited success as the build up of tartar has slowly creeped up. He also has a problem with saliva causing bacterial infections in his lower lip folds.

The upshot is that he stinks! Poor dog. I have been washing his mouth religiously with a mild hibbiscrub, rinsing and patting dry. I've tried putting udder cream on his mouth when it's dry to form a barrier.....all to no avail.

When I collected the cat from the vets today (she's been spayed), I asked about booking him to have some surgery. Our old vets claimed he's too old now, but I explained that the whole house, all the furniture and every room smells of Jasper. His mouth odour is rancid and I just can't live with it anymore.

He's now booked in to have a health check and have surgery on his teeth and possibly his lip folds next Tuesday. Part of me is happy, it needs sorting, but the other part of me is wondering if it's a little cruel to put him through the surgery?

Also, because the inlaws insisted on buying a Border Collie bitch and have no immediate plans to have her spayed....would you think he's too older to be neutured? Just thought it would be easier to not have to keep them separate at all times if he couldn't do anything to her. I can't force the inlaws to spay their dog and it's me who looks after her day to day.

Sorry...I appear to have rambled. I hope it makes sense.
 
Ok Tooth surgery is one thing but he is too old to be dealing with the trauma and hormonal changes of neutering in my opinion. our now 15yr old Springer bitch had a lumpp removed from her eye at 13. she also had a lump on her side but vet refused to go at that as he felt it was far too invasive at her age. its obviously not anything major cause she's still alive and kicking. if inlaws refuse to have her spayed then it is their problem if any accidents happen. your fella is too old for neuturing and it would be grossly unfair to put him through it. teh tooth surgery/scraping should really help with the odour though!
 
Strangely enough, the vet didn't seem concerned about neutering when I mentioned it. He said he wouldn't have it done for the sake of it, but dogs alot older than him have their bits whipped off due to tumours etc and cope well with the surgery. I doubt that I'd have it done, it was just a thought.

You don't know my inlaws you see....if there is an accident, I reckon they'd shoot my dog themselves!
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(Ok....slight exaggeration, but it would seen as MINE and my dog's fault, even if Bess escaped her run and got to my dog)

Vet is on about a bit of a facelift, for want of a better phrase, where they remove the loose skin of the lower lip that causes the fold, that is holding saliva and bacteria and making the smell. It's not just a case of bad teeth....it's more than that. He's been on long term antibiotics for it, but as soon as they are finished, the smell returns.
 
I'm not a vet, but I would say that is quite old for surgery.

However I defer to those with a lot more knowledge than me! My experience is with big dogs, so obviously I would be a bit more wary.
 
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I'm not a vet, but I would say that is quite old for surgery.

However I defer to those with a lot more knowledge than me! My experience is with big dogs, so obviously I would be a bit more wary.

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See I think it's old too, which is why I've put up with his smelly mouth for so long. Problem is, I am almost wretching when he yawns anywhere near me and people who visit are commenting on the general odour in the house caused by it. It's very unpleasant. I don't want to banish him outside as that would be more cruel. I already feel horrid as I keep sending him away to lie down or sit away from me because I can't bear to have him sat smelling like that near me. I just feel guilty either way. He's my baby and is so used to sitting on my lap or lying snuggled up with his head on my lap.

It's obviously not healthy for him either is it?

To look at him, no one believes he is his age. He has no arthritis or stiffness, runs about like a complete loon. If I were to dye his grey bits back to black and you couldn't see his missing teeth, you would honestly believe he was half his age. Everyone is amazed when I say he's 13. Of course, I realise that this doesn't make him any younger, but he is quite clearly fit for his age. He is not overweight either.

Problem I have is, he could live another 2 or 3 years and this smell is not going to get any better. I just cannot cope with it anymore.

I can't convey just how terrible it is.
 
Sounds like a nightmare!

Like I say, maybe someone more knowledgeable than me will be able to advise you better, we have put some of our older GSDs through surgery and it has gone both ways. Ours tend to be the size of houses once they reach double figures, though
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It is a nightmare. I am completely torn. I had hoped to be able to manage him with regular washing etc but I have lost the battle.

This last three months or so it has gotten worse and worse. I can't remember the name they give to these stubborn infections, but I was told by the old vets that one of the only ways of curing it was with surgery, but they said they wouldn't bother unless I felt it was REALLY necessary.

Thing is, they don't have to live with him. The children "shoo" him away, hubby tells him to bog off when he gets near him, my parents won't visit anymore because his smell makes my mum feel sick.

You see, it's not just a bit of an odour. You can smell it from the doorway....whether he is in the house or not!
 
I hope so!

I do trust this new vet and he is going to look at him before deciding if he should operate. He didn't necessarily think his age made it a no-no. He seemed quite sympathetic to ours and his plight.

I mean, I know this is horrible, but I have recently begun thinking I'd have to have him PTS soon if it gets much worse because the smell is just so bad.....so surely the surgery, even if it carries a marginally higher risk due to his age...has to be a better course of action?

I am actually ashamed to have said that out loud....but I have seriously been wondering lately if it would end up coming to that.
 
Your vet is best placed to advise you on anaesthetic risks. You could ask him to run a blood test beforehand to be as sure as possible.

I'm not a vet but imo it would be an awful lot to put him through to have pain at both ends of his body at once. The bacterial issues of the teeth are the most important.

When the bitch is in season maybe making other arrangements for her care for a couple of weeks twice a year might be an option ?
 
I wouldn't have had it done at the same time, and quite possibly won't ever have him neutered.

What other care do you mean for Bess when in season? Are you meaning to send her somewhere? Not quite sure I understand.

She has two runs on the farm, a summer and winter one. Winter one (she's in it now) is the forage bin of an old shippon. About 40ft long and 8ft wide.

In summer she has a shed with an attached run and concrete floor for the run. She goes out numerous times a day and will probably run a bit more freely over summer around the farm, whilst we're outside. Jasper is a house dog.

In laws won't have Bess in the house, so that option is out.
 
Sorry Patches, misunderstood - thought you meant having the neutering done at the same time.

Didn't realise Bess was a farm dog. My thought was that if she was maybe in kennels or stayed with someone else whilst in season, you'd be sure to keep them apart.
 
I would most definitely have the teeth/face thing sorted - never mind the smell problem for you, it isnt fair on Jasper, he must be in discomfort if it smells that bad
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You are running a risk with the anasthetic at his age of course, but personally I dont think it is an option not to do it?

As far as the castration is concerned, I would leave that for the time being...possibly indefinitely....if I have read your posts correctly (possibly not as I did read quickly!) then the collie is an outdoor dog and Jasper is an indoor dog, so it should be pretty easy to keep them apart for a few weeks twice a year?
 
Thank you Acolyte. That makes me feel so much better to hear you say you would go ahead.

It's only the last few months that the smell has gotten unbearably bad, since antibiotics have stopped and we've done all the old vet suggested. This is a new vet (only used them for the first time today for Gracie's spaying - but they are highly recommended locally) who I've asked to assess him for a second opinion and possible surgery to help solve the issues.

He was with me, the same as you, in saying that if I am finding living with the smell unbearable than I have to go ahead and risk surgery.

I should point out, our old vet was quite unconcerned simply because it doesn't appear to be affecting his general health. Shiny coat, fit, healthy, not losing weight or off food etc etc.
 
I think he's gay!

He's only once been near an in season bitch and he turned his nose up and walked off. He's never "humped" anyone's legs etc etc.
 
I must admit I have only ever had dogs which have had foul breath due to bad teeth - it has never got to the stage where it has affected them physically (as with Jasper, they have been eating well, shiny coat, good weight etc) but they have always been hugely relieved after it has been sorted! Islay is my most recent example of that - her breath actually wasnt that bad, but she had literally a couple of dozen teeth taken out
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I was mortified
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but she is so much happier now
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I really hope it all goes well for Jasper, I know when I used to have my elderly whippets teeth done I used to be petrified -she had a massive heart murmur, and whippets are notoriously bad with anaesthetics as they have so little body fat. But she was always absolutely fine
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Do let us know how he gets on
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My poor Spaniel didn't seem to notice any difference when he'd had his out last time....he just liked the tinned dog feed the vet's prescribed him for a few days after having them out.

I reckon he thought he was being treated....REAL meat....yummy!
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I just feel incredibly guilty because so many people have said they wouldn't risk it and probably think I'm doing it for me, more than him. It's for both of us really, although I'm not sure how I am supposed to carry on living with him smelling like this though? I've tried antibiotics and the face washing/scrubbing with a toothbrush and diluted hibbiscrub. None of it worked to cure the smell.

I think he is lucky that a deep seated infection has overwhelmed his body, when I think logically. On one hand I feel ashamed for letting him get so smelly.....but on the other hand, we have done EVERYTHING our previous vet suggested.
 
I would have the surgery done and risk the complications.

Sorry, but I am sure the poor dog is aware of how he smells, and it must be distressing for him to be sent away the whole time.

I had a boxer with a recurrent ear infection.... boy did that stink..... I know what you mean about it pervading the whole house
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No way would I be able to live with that
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Seh had an ear resection and would have been fine had she not have got herself run over shortly after
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Go for it.....

Cant see the problem in whipping his knackers off at the same time either.....my schnauzer had his off when he had some baby teeth out that were retained.
 
Honestly Patches, you truly do not need to feel guilty about having Jasper looked at, I am sure that it is the best thing for him and for you.

And I would also say that you definitely do not need to feel ashamed - I am absolutely confident that you have done everything you could, and I have no doubt that everyone else will say the same
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Thanks Acolyte.

I've just gotten to the point where I'm noticing that after patting him on the head for a bit I end up saying "Cor....Jasper, go and lie down in your basket" because of how he smells, where before I'd have him on the sofa next to me for a good old fuss.

I wouldn't say I'm ignoring him, but I'm not quite as affectionate as before with him, especially when he insists on panting in my face! He could knock me out when he does that!

I love him to pieces, so am obviously torn about the risks of surgery, but I also realise that we can't go on like this. He needs it sorting for himself and I need it sorting so I can continue to enjoy his remaining years. I don't want to remember him as the smelly dog.
 
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I would have the surgery done and risk the complications.

Sorry, but I am sure the poor dog is aware of how he smells, and it must be distressing for him to be sent away the whole time.

I had a boxer with a recurrent ear infection.... boy did that stink..... I know what you mean about it pervading the whole house
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No way would I be able to live with that
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Seh had an ear resection and would have been fine had she not have got herself run over shortly after
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Go for it.....

Cant see the problem in whipping his knackers off at the same time either.....my schnauzer had his off when he had some baby teeth out that were retained.

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He's not sent away and never touched, I should point that out. I am tolerant, to a point, before I have to ask him to go and lie down elsewhere. If he's panting, for instance, or licking at himself.....I can't stand that...it seems to multiply his odour!

You're right, it does seem to consume the entire house, even when he's not inside! You sit on the settee and can smell where he's rested his head on the arm of it. Same with pillows and cushions or a coat that he's pulled off the coat rack to lie on (he's a clever boy!)

I want him to feel better too. I've recently had all my wisdom teeth removed. Until I'd had it done, I hadn't realised how rotten the impacted one must've been under my gum line. I no longer have "dog breath" - every pun intended - when I wake in the mornings and my mouth feels so much fresher for the duration of the day. Surely Jasper would be aware of the same feeling after he's had the procedure?

I hope he copes with the surgery. I will feel guilty if it goes wrong, but I would feel worse if I left him to continue to smell any longer.
 
If he is going to have a dental, as your vet suggests the castration is actually the less riskier part, the castration would be over in 10 mins and he wont feel a thing afterwards, a dental, depending on how bad, and the amount of extractions he will need will be a much bigger and more evasive task, as MQ suggests it's better to get it done, esp if he is as bad as you say(he could be at risk of kidney failure, if his teeth become worse) and I would 2, have him done when he is knocked out, you don't want to knock him out again, I would have the procedures done now, there is a chance he will ignore the bitch(if u are certain, and you can manage, and you can keep them seperate then leave him intact, on the other hand he could become pretty stressed when she is in season.

I had my whippey x grey knocked out for a dental last year, she is nearly 16 now, you vet will check his heart and poss run pre anaesthetic bloods, to rule out any high risk problems befor hand.
 
CALA

That's pretty much how the vet put it today....having him "done" is simple, very minor and he would hardly notice he'd had it done....whereas his mouth would be a bit sore for a few days.

He had 11 teeth removed about 4/5 years ago and recovered very quickly. Surprised me how readily he ate on returning him. You'd think he'd been starved for a week, not just overnight.

I hadn't thought about the risk of having him knocked out twice to be honest! D'oh!

To be totally honest, I have never kept him around a bitch before, either one entire or spayed. It's a totally new experience for me and him. I have no idea how he will react towards her, but him and the inlaws old entire dog used to fight occasionally. Don't really know why I never had him done.

If I ever had another dog, he would be done as soon as he could. Just seems to be something I overlooked, largely because I never knew anyone with a bitch back then (so it never seemed important) and because he never displayed affection towards anyone's legs etc.
 
I sympathise with your dilemma, our Lancashire Heeler had terrible teeth and gums, she had to have her teeth cleaned frequently (and she was fed tripe which usually keeps their teeth in great condition). She had her last tooth op at 13 when she had several teeth removed. She lived to nearly 15 and in the last months of her life her breath was awful, she used to sit on my knee and it nearly knocked me out
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Because she had quite a few other minor problems by this time we decided against a further operation. However if Jasper is well for his age I would be guided by your vet, if he thinks its okay to go ahead then def ask him to run full bloods first, I always get this done even in young dogs to put my mind at rest. I would be inclined to have him neutered at the same time if you are going to do it, probably preferable to a second anaesthetic I would have thought, but am no expert.
 
Patches - my OH has a similar problem with his Border Terrier. Morse is 14 this year, and no one would ever guess his age. But, like your boy, his teeth are rotten
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He doesnt have problems eating, but his breath is absolutely foul, and the vets have told my OH that they dont think Morse's heart would stand up to surgery, and therefore will not operate.

TBH, I find it REALLY hard to cope with; the stink is often a bone of contention between me and my OH, but as he says, other than giving the dog dental/breath freshening chews, there is not anything that can be done for such an old dog. But I totally know where you are coming from when you say how unbearable the smell is - Morse is the same
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I sympathise! Poor Alf was getting smellier and smellier, to the point when I used to gag if he breathed on me. I cleaned his teeth regularly but it got no better so we took a trip to vet as I wondered if it was doing his general health any good as the smell was like a toxic decay smell
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He needed 11 teeth out, mostly worn down ones because he's got an undershot jaw but also some wobbly ones that were trapping decayed food and we are all so much happier
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Can he not have raw bones to keep his teeth clean?
It must be sad for him to be shooed away all the time so I'd go ahead and have whatever the vet can do to help. and his age shouldn't really be a problem if he's healthy
 
Thanks for sharing your story OOTP.

As I stated in my original post, he won't and never has ever chewed at things. He doesn't eat the harder dog chews, dental rasks (sp), hide chews or bones. I guess this is why he has his problem. He doesn't naturally assist in keeping his teeth clean.

I used to brush his teeth religiously and "flick" little bits of tartar off with a coin, but after he had the surgery a few years ago, he has never let me do it properly since, well not effectively, as he's been more guarded about his mouth.

As we were told at the time, once they've had some teeth out, it's more difficult for them to chew effectively enough to keep their teeth clean. This is why he was put on the dual sized kibble foods.....it's just he's a bit hit and miss about taking it.
 
My dog developed a perianal tumour a couple of months ago, he's 10 1/2 so not as old as yours but he has mild heart failure too. The tumour didn't seem to cause him any pain but the smell from it was awful. His vet and I decided to go ahead and try to remove the lump and castrate him at the same time (as the tumour was testosterone dependent). I was very worried and the day of his op seemed about ten days long! However, he flew through it all, healed very quickly and is better than he has been for months. I really think the smell was upsetting him as much as it was me! Regarding the castration - I don't think he really even noticed. I know mine isn't as old as yours but I hoped that telling you about it might help a little
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Best wishes to you and your old boy
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As I stated in my original post, he won't and never has ever chewed at things. He doesn't eat the harder dog chews, dental rasks (sp), hide chews or bones.

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Sorry, missed that bit! Would he eat a chicken neck? They're supposed to be brilliant for teeth and they can be raw or cooked as the bones are safe. Would he play with soft toys? My collie plays with and shakes a soft toy a lot and his teeth are the cleanest I've ever seen.
 
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