Have you ever seen a horse receiving CPR?

[ponynutz]

Exactly.



I thought you could stop the heart if it were already beating. Upset the rhythm. This is why I think it's odd that anyone can watch and report what they thing they saw.

I'd second this. Thought it was odd too but seeing as my highest knowledge is only A Level I didn't say anything. Glad you've pointed it out.

 

[scats]

I did a ‘backstage’ day at our local hospital a few years ago. They invited a number of local equine professionals and I got an invite to go along with the lady who owned the retirement field that Tobi was at.
We didn’t see any actual patients (client confidentiality I imagine), but we got to go in the theatres, recovery room, have a go using the pulley system to get a ‘model horse’ onto the table. They talked to us about GA and the complications and reactions of some horses. We also got to put our arm through the valves in a horses heart, look at various legs and organs, eyeballs etc. It was one of the most interesting days I’ve ever had.
As a side note, I’ve put several through GA and all have been fine in recovery. My most idiotic horse went under twice in his lifetime and both times he sat up in recovery, surveyed his surroundings and got up calmly. Totally not what you’d expect from that horse!

 

[LadyGascoyne]

On a technical note, confidentiality doesn’t apply to animals.

The information in animal records belongs to the vet practice and the owner has a right to request information under RCVS guidelines.

Client information is the only area where confidentiality applies, and consent to share information is strictly needed.

That is why care must be taken to ensure that any information released doesn’t identify the owner in any way, but animal is not entitled to confidentiality itself.

My view would be that there is insufficient information in the post to make the owner identifiable. I wouldn’t consider it a breach of confidentiality.

One could consider whether the viewer of the surgery could reasonably have identified the owner from the appearance of the horse (if they knew that horse and owner personally, or if it was a well-known horse). I would imagine it is a low risk, and we don’t have the facts from the vet as to how they judged that- and in this case were right.

And we don’t know whether there was owner consent - it might be something they include on surgery consent forms, if they have a window for viewing.

 

[Smoky 2022]

I don’t get why everyone is getting offended. It normal to let people watch out the window of vet practice as above poster confidentiality doesn’t apply to horses or any pet only humans.

 

[Alibear]

Yes, sounds similar to what happened to my horse 25 years ago. She was colic-ing and had given up. The vet tried to revive her as I walked into the arena just as she stopped breathing. It worked, she survived a colic operation several hours later and lived pretty well for another 6 years. She did have to be retired as the winching around for the operation aggravated a very large old side bone and she was never fully sound on it again.

 

[druid]

you don't need a ventilator... and how do they ventilate if they don't paralyse?

ETA just had a look there are a hell of a lot of papers out their about different paralytic agents used in a helluva lot of equine surgery... I for one don't see how you could do abdo surgery without it seeing the trouble it can be to pull a human abdo back together and a horse is a lot bigger... but I'd be interested to hear how it is done with out.

Depends what you term a paralytic, I guess. We premed with xylazine and midazolam, induce with ketamine and immeadiately hook up to isoflurane for maintaince of anaesthesia. Alternatively run GKX if not in the surgery suite.

Ventilation just requires you to overcome the horse's own respiratory reflex/urge, either by increasing number of ventilations per minute or depth of anaesthesia until they are at an adequate plane of anaesthesia. Some horses do "buck the ventilator" initally especially dystocias and late stage/painful colics but they settle quickly. I was lucky enough to taught aanesthesia by the man who literally wrote the text book on Equine Anaesthesia.

When moving a horse on the hoist we always have a syringe of ketamine on hand to stop any movement/waking up, similarly intraop we have a syringe of ketamine hooked to the IV line via T port for thinsg going badly moments.

 

[Gamebird]

We premed with xylazine and midazolam, induce with ketamine and immeadiately hook up to isoflurane for maintaince of anaesthesia.

That's exactly how we do it, though these days I'm often in circumstances with no gas available, and use triple drip after the ketamine bolus.

I don't know why I got so muddled yesterday. Good job I'm not the anaesthetist! When I said we don't usually use paralytics in equine anaesthesia I was meaning things like succinylcholine/suxamethonium, which I believe they often use for intubation in humans and I assumed that's what the human anesthetist meant by paralytic.

 

[HBB]

I had a colt years ago "die" under heavy sedation while getting gelded. We managed to get him back with chest compression's, it was quite brutal but it saved him.

 

[rara007]

It’s more common than you’d think- there’s a reason why equine anaesthetics use ventilators and that’s not because they like to keep breathing properly easily…! Technically CPR is after a cardiac arrest, it gets much more exciting then! Not much research in equine still but RECOVER is the place to geek out on small animal CPRs.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Thanks for the extra info from people who do this stuff for a living! As I say I was just a passing observer who thought it was something interesting but something I had no real knowledge about. So if nothing else this post has given people more of an idea of what goes on with a horse under GA.

 

[twiggy2]

Fair but not sure I'd be too happy to have my horse's GA recovery watched at random, especially if it went wrong!

The stables are next to the operating theatre and you can watch through the glass. You not actually allowed in there though as it is all scrubbed clean etc.

They have no idea why he wasnt breathing. He had been fine when tubed on the table having the oxygen pumped into him. The problem started when he was off the table in the recovery cell.

I dint see that there is any issue with someone watching a surgery.
If nothing is signed to say no one will see it then why is there an issue?
Someone may learn something watching from it, it may save a horse and its cost you noting no time or anything.
When did the world become so unhelpful?

 

[maya2008]

I also don’t think confidentiality (for the horse) is a thing. One of mine was the subject of a variety of research papers many years ago and no one asked us for permission. Nor did I mind when I found out! If what had happened to her could help someone else, then all good!

I have only had one go under GA. It was that or pts so no choice really. She’s back in full work and thriving so was definitely the right choice!

 

[Birker2020]

On a technical note, confidentiality doesn’t apply to animals.

The information in animal records belongs to the vet practice and the owner has a right to request information under RCVS guidelines.

Client information is the only area where confidentiality applies, and consent to share information is strictly needed.

That is why care must be taken to ensure that any information released doesn’t identify the owner in any way, but animal is not entitled to confidentiality itself.

My view would be that there is insufficient information in the post to make the owner identifiable. I wouldn’t consider it a breach of confidentiality.

One could consider whether the viewer of the surgery could reasonably have identified the owner from the appearance of the horse (if they knew that horse and owner personally, or if it was a well-known horse). I would imagine it is a low risk, and we don’t have the facts from the vet as to how they judged that- and in this case were right.

And we don’t know whether there was owner consent - it might be something they include on surgery consent forms, if they have a window for viewing.

Storm in a teacup.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’d love to watch this stuff, wish there was an observation area at my local vets. Really interesting.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Glad all was well after that!

Reckon all those vets needed a change of underwear tho'...........

 

[Hormonal Filly]

I found it an interesting read, so thanks for posting @Elf On A Shelf.
Never knew it was common for them to stand on their fetlocks while waking from GA.

I can understand why some would be more offended by this, especially if they’ve had the unimaginable happen before in the same situation.