Having a foal from the same dam and sire your horse is from?

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LankyDoodle

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Has anyone done this or been tempted to?

With Lanky possibly becoming a field ornament, I'm considering going to his original breeder and asking for a foal out of his dam and sire.

Although I didn't buy Lanky for his breeding, but for the fact I knew him and our friends had schooled him well etc; I do love him in every way. He does have sweet itch but any horse can get it. He has excellent manners and a trainable temperament; he's a beautiful horse... well put together etc and was all I wanted or needed for my personal aspirations (local level dressage etc).

The thing that obviously worries me is that his dam and sire produce big horses, and my big horse has got OCD - is this likely to repeat itself?

As I am (hopefully) having a baby in April, I have time on my hands where I can't ride, which is time where Lanky can be turned away to get better (hopefully) at my in-laws place, which has a field. We see no sense paying livery for a horse that can't be ridden, but we have nice facilities at the in-laws and the only reason we aren't there now is because they live next to a busy road we can't ride out onto.

I know I am jumping ahead a bit, but I also think Lanky would make a wonderful 'teacher' to a youngster in terms of manners and the like, and we'd probably keep them together and just keep George at livery.

Has anyone done this? I realise the risks and the possibility of new horse never being like Lanky in any way, including manners, but...
 
I bought Donkey because she was the pure sister of Nelly who I lost to colic - Be warned they will not be the same! Nelly was forward going and Donks does not even understand the word forward
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They were both also completey diferent builds. Donkey was an emotional purchase that probably was not suited to what I really want but would never part with her now!

Donkey is now in foal to Penryhn Dicator who is Buck's sire and I am hoping for a lovely Buckerina!
 
Personally I wouldn't. I don't know lots about OCD but when we lost Sammy we did consider looking at his sister. We concluded not to. Whilst Sammy was diagnosed with a ruptured collateral ligament, which clearly was not hereditary, the conformation of his feet hadn't helped. We decided that if it were to go wrong with his sister it would be unbearable.
I think it's a personal thing but for me I couldn't forgive myself if it all went wrong again and I had taken the risk.
 
I know nothing about OCD but haven't you also mentioned that he has arthritis as well? I would be worried about having a horse with the same breeding as one who's had quite a few problems so young. I know he's a lovely horse and you'd love to have something similar (I would have cloned my old boy had I been able to) but there are other youngsters out there who have just as lovely manners and attitude etc and none of the potential hereditary problems. You also have no guarantee that siblings will be the same, my old boy's full sister was an RDA pony, he was a nutter of a jumping pony who was a real handful up until the day he died. I would possibly buy a different one and still have Uncle Lanky teach him/her about life and how to behave.
 
He doesn;t have arthritis. The vet told me the xrays showed some changes which could be a,b or c. He then consulted with an orthopaedic surgeon who said that the abnormalities are OCD which, untreated, can lead to arhritis, but all arhtritis starts from something; so he has one problem which is OCD. I don't think OCD is hereditary; it is linked to large horses who have big growth spurts.

I think you are right about having something different, though. There are no guarantees with youngsters, though, wherever they come from.
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I want something and need something on the chunkier side and I think that has also factored into why I wanted another of Lanky's siblings.
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His full sister, Trenawin Louisa, is at a stud in Cheshire and, I think, is fairly successful broodmare.

Oh well, back to the drawing board I think. Thanks for replies.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteochondrosis

It can be an hereditary issue also, this was a concern when one of myyoungsters was thought to have it as I had another youngster out of the same stallion and we were worried it could be that he was the factor. It turned out it wasn't OCD.

There is a risk with every youngtser as you say but it sounds like you would be increasing the risk factor here
 
The 2 in my siggy are full brother and sister, we bought the roan as a 4yr old and then bought him as a 2 yr old 2 yrs later. We were so pleased with her and she was such a great comp pony we thought (hopefully) he will be a bigger version. They are totally different though, he is now just 5 and has had quite impressive tantrums but also shows elements of genius (according to their instructor) So we'll have to wait and see, his tantrums are getting fewer too.
 
i think the danger is that it would be a purely emotional purchase rather than a sensible one. what i would do is look very carefully at both sire and dam in terms of conformation, other offspring etc etc before making any decisions. it could be possible to maybe go for a half brother or sister instead?
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Yes, of course. Like I said, it was just a fletting moment of madness. I guess another cob like George is my best bet. He is the most wonderul, honest horse and never given us a moment's grief. Perhaps I overlook how brilliant HE is. He did only cost £1400, which is less than half what Lanky did, but he's worth his hefty weight in gold, and I suppose if I could, I'd have another like him as well.
 
His sire is Lenard, a horse that has sired some great horses. I think the problems come from the dam side. There is a person on this site who has a horse that is, I think, a half sibling of Lanky. I might try and contact them.
 
I know both of Emerald's full sisters. Although all wonderful ponies they are very different in build and way of going, although they share a sweet temperament. They are certainly not clones of each other.
 
Just to confirm, when I was asking the vet is Be's condition would make her unsuitable for breeding from (it doesn't) he said in passing that OCD was hereditary. Sorry
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OCD is hereditary. I wouldnt let it put me off having a full brother if iliked the original horse. I would get hocks and stifles in particular x rayed before puchase however. Fetlocks too if I had the money.
 
Unfortunately it can be genetic but more often than not, it is caused by mineral imbalances when a horse is growing, particularly as a very young foal.
I have seen foals as young as 6 months need to decrease their food intake to help prevent OCD because they are growing too fast, this has all been under a vet's care
One thing you might want to check out if you can is if either parents (dam and sire) of your gelding have had other foals with any type of Osteochondrosis Disease. That might help you figure out if your geldings problem originated from genetics or nutrition
if it genetics then i would say not to breed from them two again
 
Thanks Ischa. I know his full sister, Trenawin Louisa, is at a stud in Cheshire and is a very successful broodmare. She was born in 1997. Because she is used as a broodmare I'd assume all is well with her.

I don't know of any of the other full siblings. Trenawin Lanikai is one and he competes at high level dressage, so again, I assume there are no problems. And another, Trenawin Leona, also does the same (dressage). However, as the vet told me, with OCD, you don't know you've got the problem a lot of the time, unless the horse has another problem that leads to investigations.

Lenard definitely has very high quality offspring. He's proven. But I can't find a great deal about Trenawin Aurora, which is Lanky's dam, only what is in Lanky's passport, which is that she was sired by Atlantus (another member here has an Atlantus offpsring) and the dam was Lydia, whose sire was Landgraf. I have a picture of Lenard, and save the white sock that Lanky has on his near hind, he is the spit of Lanky in terms of build and looks.

The thing is, we have known Lanky since he was a 2 year old. He was big then. He is 17.3 now and only stopped growing about a year ago (aged 7), but most of his growing had already been done obviously. He is a very very big horse, and also very chunky, and the vet said to me that in big horses it is common to see these problems due to huge growth spurts.
 
in that case if you know all offspring hasnt developed the same as your gelding
it could be from nutrition but that still doesnt give you a clear answer
i would speak to breeder to see it wouldnt hurt
 
The thing is, he stayed with his breeder until he was 18 months old and she's a very experienced breeder so I don't see how she could get his nutrition so wrong, then spent just over a year with someone else and then went to my friends until I bought him aged 7. I really don't know, but I think I am chasing my tail anyway because I really don't think I'm going to go down this road now.
 
it may not be the fact its about lacking minerals it may come down to the fact about growth spurts
we had that problem when i worked on a stud farm
foal throwing big growth spurts half the reason why we had to decrease food intake due to high risks of developing ocd as i say dont completely rule it out speak to breeder and see what you come up with
 
Well I do know that when he came to my friends he was already huge and the vet has put it down to growth spurts (well, this is how it was explained to me yesterday anyway - very big horse, big growth spurt, problems with his joints).
 
if its the case of foals getting big the best way to reduce it is to reduce food intake which in his case he may of not had reduce food intake which with him massive growth spurts and feeding is probley the answer to why your horse has developed OCD
if you wanted to go down that line again then i would watch out for big growth spurt this time and reduce food intake otherwise your going to have same problem again
anyway good luck with breeding another if you do
 
Thanks for that. Makes me feel a bit crappy to think it could have been prevented if he had been managed properly by whoever had him at the time.

Oh well, life is shitty sometimes and we have to just deal with it and move on!

Thanks all for the comments.
 
I think by buying a full sibling, you might be setting yourself up for disapointment. If even if you don't mean to, you'll always be comparing them in the back of your mind. It's not fair to any of you to be in that situation.
 
We bought a pair of brothers, just as they matched and results not because they were brothers. They are very different, in that one is always hyper, the other relaxed untill he flips
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They both are particularly prone to back problems though.
 
dont fill crappy over it as i say it could be a possable number of reason to why he got OCD alot of people put it down to growth spurts but it could be anything starting from mineral problems during pregnancy , youngster ie growth spurts etc , could be inhertiary you just dont know
as you say There is no doubt that many cases of mild OCD are never recognised
but resolve naturally with time. However, in more significant cases, the swelling which occurs within the joint is due to the release of chemicals from the damaged cartilage and bone, which cause inflammation. at the end of the day things like this happens its day to day life
 
While it is true that in many cases mild OCD is not diagnosed as causes no problems, to say it resolves naturally overtime. Cartilage cannot "heal" therefore once OCD occurs it is there. It may never become an issue and owner (nor horse) may ever become aware of it, but it will still be there once it occurs. The likes of hyaluronic acid and glucosamine can help slow/limit joint degeneration along with other intra-articular drugs.
 
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